Recordable discs unreadable in less than two years???

[sprint1one]

A recent article in the Dallas Morning News reported that a Dutch PC-Active magazine has done an extensive CD-R quality tests (ref: http://www.pc-active.nl/toonArtikel.asp?artikelID=508). The magazine tested the readability of discs, thirty different CD-R brands, that were recorded twenty months ago. The results were quite shocking as a lot of the discs simply couldn't be read anymore.

Ref: http://www.cdfreaks.com/news/7751 (English)

The tests showed that a number of CD-Rs had become completely unreadable while others could only be read back partially. Data that was recorded 20 months ago had become unreadable. These included discs of well known and lesser known manufacturers.

Can anyone tell me if these CD-R recordability findings can be inferred to also apply to DVD media as well or is DVD burner technology and the materials used in DVD media materially different from that used in CD-R's? Unfortunately, I have been unable to find any legitimate U.S. source that has tested DVD media in the same manner that the Dutch PC magazine did.

[lordsmurf]

Did you test them when you burned them? They were likely always bad, you just didn't know it yet. "CD rot" and "DVD rot" on dye-based media is still speculative at best and scientifically unproven.

Which DMN issue was it in? I haven't been reading the paper daily cover-to-cover recently. But I've got about 2 weeks worth sitting on a recycle pile in the garage. I can go grab the issue back out and read it.

[Gazorgan]

I have numerous CDR's that are dead. A variety of brands, from 18-36 months old. They were 100% validated at the time of burning. Probably 30% failure rate.

They were stored in the dark, between 60 and 80 F, in jewel cases. Video/mp3 it's just a pain, but Data is worthless. I estimate I have about 800 hours to spend filling out rebate forms for 29 cents.............(all are guaranteed for life).

Brands are generic, TDK, Maxwell, Fuji, etc.

[Dragonsf]

My findings are, that often played (S)VCDs (700MB filled with 800MB video data) tend to degrade after 1 year.I.e. on some spots the pictures are pixalted and the sound gets noisy.Using IsoBuster to copy such files to the HDD was in most cases sucessful.So I could either backup to a new CD-R or better make a DVD (with other SVDCs) with SVCD2DVD from it.
The problem is IMHO the reduced error correction, which doesn't work well with fingerprints and light wearout.AFAIK are DVDs more robust.

[gmatov]

This is terrible.

I've been saying for months that it's a lot of hooey from the manufacturers that they'll last 100 years. But I guess their ads and propaganda would not sound so good if it was "Should last till the next format comes along".

Did I mention that an unburnt bundle has a shelf life of 7 years, per the CD experts site? If they only last up to 7 years ( and I'm sure they didn't let them sit on the shelf 7 years before they came out with that), how the hell can we trust them when they say burnt will last 100 years?

I have bunches of CD-Rs, all in sleeves, burnt 1 to 5 years ago, and it's a crap shoot when I need a driver or something. Will this disk work, or has it give up the ghost?

And I have too damn many to go through to redo them. Probably should throw half away, anyhow. Totally outdated but on occasion some one might have a need for it.

Cheers,

George

[vitualis]

It may actually depend on the brand, originally manufacturer.

I have CDs I burnt with my 2x burner from almost 6 years ago (1998) and they can still be read just fine (Kodaks and Verbatim Datelife Plus). I know this is "annecdotal" but I don't think we should be thinking of disaster just yet.

I personally have no faith in modern generic discs for achiving data.

Regards.

[lordsmurf]

I still want to know which Dallas Morning News issue this was in. I looked through every one I had and still didn't see anything. It must have not been too recent.

[andie41]

This news, if true, is very disturbing. Most of my cd's are regular backups and I don't have many more than about 18 months old, but I am in the process of transfering many Hi8 video tapes to DVD, with the intention of preserving them.

After reading this, I have tested about a dozen older cd's, both data files and audio backup, opening some files with their associated app, playing numerous songs, and performed a fille and surface scan with Nero CD Speed. I dug some audio backups out of my car, that have enjoyed a couple of winters and summers - I found zero errors.

Sometimes I wonder if folks are just messin' with us about all these problems. I read over and over about all the terrible quality media - "xxx brand is garbage", "stay away from this brand", "doesn't work with this burner", this burner has problems, too many errors with this setup and on and on it goes. I have to believe that these people are honestly relating their experiences, but I wonder if they are the exception or the rule.

As I read through a few different message boards, I wonder what someone just thinking about getting started in computers, must think - it must appear overwhelming and futile.

I bought my first CD writer (2x HP) perhaps 6 or 7 years ago. There were a couple of hiccups - it was all quite new, but a year or so later I bought a Mitsumi 4x and then later, a Ricoh 16x and since that time I have probably burned at least 250 cd's, maybe more, and to the best of my recollection, I probably had 3 or 4 coasters, that weren't caused by "operator error.

I wonder if I am just lucky, am I the exception or is it mostly that people leaving messages on message boards are the ones that are having difficulties, and the vast majority of users don't even bother with a message board, because they have no need. I am concerned that I have just been lucky to date and I wonder if I am just going to be wasting by time transferring video to DVD.

[Dragonsf]

IMHO "normal" optical media (ISO CD-R/Audio CD-R/DVD-R) have execellent error correction and probably don't produce errors (beside the "copy-protected ones).As (S)VCD use less error correction codes, they are more likely to give errors.I can still use 6 year old CD-Rs or even 20 years old Audio CDs.

[lordsmurf]

even 20 years old Audio CDs.

Were CD audio out then? I don't remember having a CD before 1989 or so.

[Dragonsf]

Definitly:I was working for WEA at that time and got my first CD from them.I had this tiny Sony CD player (which was around 700$ at that time).OK it was beginning of 1984, but that's nearly 20 years (give or take a few months 8) )

[proton]

I got CD-R's of 4 or 5 years old, they all play fine! (audiofiles).
Only had 2 CDR's (of 200 or 300 which I got) that gave errors.

I got Datatrack DVD+R's (from German brand Bayer) and on the back
it says that they give a 100 years garantee on the data.
1 difference with CDR is that the reflective layer and dye are inside the plastic of the disc and not on top! I scratched deep into a DVD-coaster and no damage was visible on the other side of the disc while with a CDR you can see right through it and the disc is unplayable.

I suspect though that DVD-recordables to be better in preserving their data than CD-R's.
MMore bytheway has protested to the Dutch magazine, they claimed that
the test was not correct, MMore CDRs given back to the manufactor were
still readable according to MMore.

Greetz, Freddie
Netherlands

[visch1]

Lately I’ve been wondering about the higher and higher burner speeds and what negative effect that has on the quality of the burn. I recall some time ago glancing at a report with microscope photos of dvd burns at different speeds. The faster speeds resulted in less sharp definition of the burns. Perhaps this could lead to a bad eventual read. With all the billions of bits, how many poorly burnt ones would it require to become non readable? Everyone it seems is out for faster everything.

[GeoPappas]

I have a Kodak PhotoCD that I made in 1990 that still plays fine.

I'm not sure how much I would believe those reports...

But I always make two copies of anything important, and I keep one copy in a firesafe.

[Poppa_Meth]

I've got at least 30 CD-Rs mostly sony from over 5 years ago and none of them have errors. they all play back fine. and I've played them fairly heavily of the years.

[sprint1one]

<< Which DMN issue was it in? I haven't been reading the paper daily cover-to-cover recently. But I've got about 2 weeks worth sitting on a recycle pile in the garage. I can go grab the issue back out and read it. >>

Lordsmurf,

A relative sent me the article from the DMN. Since he cut it out of the paper, I can only speculate that it is from an October or November issue. In any event, the article is very brief and doesn't say anything more than what I posted.

Sprint1one

[Cornucopia]

You get what you pay for.

I have archived backups from recording sessions I did as far back as 1996 on Data CD-R's. Occasionally, I have to restore the backup to update/revise something in the mix. 95% or more of my discs (Maxell, Verbatim, Mitsui, Kodak Gold, etc) have been flawless. The ones that have messed up can all point back to having either questionable media, a burn that posted an error message and was ignored, or bad handling/storage.

OTOH, I got some 200 generic CD-R's on spindle for free at a place I used to work for (they were going to dump them cuz they had pre-silkscreened the wrong label on em). I burned stuff on em in 2000-2001 and now, EVERY one of them is totally unreadable, sometimes after just beeing burned and stored and never played again until I tried to recover the stuff. (Hollywood should use those disc's for their "EZ-D" timebomb discs.) Well, I won't get "burned" again, pardon the pun.

As AudioCD's and VideoCD's have only 2 layers of correction as opposed to 3, they will be somewhat more prone to error, but it's usually a "forgiveable" error that can be worked around.

The upshot of this all is: Don't use crappy or even questionable media for stuff you want to have around for a long time!

Scott

[overloaded_ide]

Well, I looked at the date for the posts, Dec 9 2003, but I could have sworn I just read all this about a month ago at least!

Maybe some other forum or a differnt post here??

Anyway, I wouldn't worry too much about disks going bad myself. Yes I am sure it can happen, but really important stuff burn twice or three times and chaeck ocasionally.

Personnally other than user damage ALL the cheapo disks I have been using are still working far as I know. I haven't really gone through and checked them, but I need one sometimes and it works when I find it. Some are several years old, maybe even older! Not sure when I got my first burner. All I normally use is cheapest I can find, and I really like those free after rebate deals too

Now I do have some disks I question the life span of. They are silver both sides (can't easily tell which is the burn side) and you can see through them pretty easy too. Don't even have to use a bright light, just a dim light will show your hand right through them. Yea I am sure if those type disks were tested they would die in about 6 months maybe?

Except for my first 100 pack of memorex, the rest have been like PNY, Circuit City, ect.. and free after rebates. Although for important data I do have some 48x TDK now and another expensive brand, and I make 2 copies at least depending on importance.

[Dragonsf]

Exactly my observations,100% of those "damaged" SVCDS were the ones, with both side silver (when you can't tell, which is the burnt side).

[tig2002]

I am not sure what Dallas Morning News or Dutch PC-Active magazine are trying to do, but I have no problems of retrieving data from my 5-6 years old CD-R's recorded at 2X whatsoever (both data and music), from cheap CompUSA's to expensive TDK's and Fujifilm's. Some of these CD-R's were stored in jewel cases, some of them as a stack without even paper sleeves, and some in my car (20-115 degrees in Fahrenheit).

I stopped reading articles in computer and vehicle associated magazines long time ago when I figured that they work for market, never for consumers. Again, I don't know who these particular magazines work for and do "extensive CD-R quality tests", but I can't believe that consumers are in panic... cannot read 2 years old CD-R that was stored in jewel case - nonsense. These disks were probably not readable after burning.