Recommendations TMPGEnc 2-Pass VBR Settings SVCD

[hiflyact]

Hello,

I was hoping that you guys could pass along some settings that have worked for you. I'm interested in encoding an hour TV show, approx 45 mins with commercials cut out and making a SVCD out of it so it can be played on a dvd player. What settings work well using the 2-pass VBR method? Minimum, average, and max values would be appreciated. I'm assuming max would 2520, anything higher would be asking for trouble since it strays from the standard of SVCD. I'm looking for a quality video results.

Thank You

[Vejita-sama]

Read what I wrote in this tread:

https://www.videohelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=169977

Another poster was asking about CQ_VBR vs. CBR but I coverd CQ_VBR, 2pass VBR, and CBR. Bottomline thou:

min = 300
ave = from bitrate calculator
max = standalone players max (normally 2520)

[spectroelectro]

What you're doing is what I did for quite a while. It amkes sense to record TV shows on SVCD on CD-Rs since with NTSC composite source, the extra quality of DVD MPEG-2 720 x 480 is mostly wastyed.
That said...
I hate to say it but I never got really satisfactory results from encoding
strict by-the-book SVCDs. The max bitrate was too low. In my experience, to get a really good quality encoded TV show of 44 mins length on an 800 meg CD-R, I had to violate the SVCD standard.
Specifically, max bitrate 5000 and min bitrate of 0. These both
transgress against the strict SVCD stnadard but both my DVD players seem to play such non-stadnard SVCDs just fine.
The reason why the max bitrate matters is that scenes with fast motion turn to crap with a 2520 max biitrate. Specific examples include scenes in STAR TREK: VOYAGER involving complex CGI effects. They turned to junk and became unwatchable. VHS looked better IMHO.
So I'd have to say that to get acceptable quality on SVCD on a CD-R, you must violate the strict SVCD standard with a higher max bitrate.

[hiflyact]

Thanks for the reponses. I was just going to ask about going with a higher bitrate, but you beat me to it. :-)

I'll have to experiment with that and see if it will even play in my DVD player going that high.

[ZippyP.]

IMHO the reason that captured video might require extra high bitrate is because of noise in the signal which the encoder sees and wastes bits on. Sometime this noise is not even noticible to the eye (as noise) but the effect due to the wasted bits is noticible as a poor quality video. That's why many people use noise and smoothing filters before encoding, or the internal TMPGEnc noise filter. Even if the filter settings are low so as not to be noticed by your eye the encoder will have many more bits to use in producing a good quality video. I guess what I'm saying is that if you filter you can keep the bitrate down. It'll probably require some trial and error though. Like I said, I'm no expert, it's just a tip that I picked up from someone who's more knowledgable than I.

[ZippyP.]

edit.

[hiflyact]

You said put the max at 5000 and minimum at 0, what should I put the average as then? The problem with encoding using the 2-pass vbr is the amount of time it takes. I loaded up a sample and it would take forever.

How do you set this up in tmpgenc to go outside the standard? You have to go outside project wizard to do it?

I've got a couple other ideas for what I want to do, not sure how they would work out though. Here's what I'm running 1st: P3 500mhz, 512MB RAM, 40GB 7200 RPM HD, Win98SE (4GB file limit), ATI TV Tuner VE capture card, MJPEG codec.

Because I'm severely limited on what I can do, because of the CPU speed and the file limitation I thought about the following: I can capture an hours worth of video in IUVCR with MJPEG with a setting of 15, falls just under the 4GB limit. I can take that, run it through vdub, edit out commercials and then frameserve to tmpgenc. There I can use CBR and just turn the bitrate down so that I can get it to fit on a CD-R.

I tried setting up spill drives/folders so that I could go over the 4GB barrier and keep on recording. That didn't work so well because when I opened up the first one in vdub, it didn't join all the rest to it and I had to append them manually which screws everything up and you can tell where they join.

Other option is, to capture in segments with MJPEG and a setting of 19. For instance just capture the sections in between commericals then bring into vdub, edit out any snips of commercials/unwanted material, frameserve to tmpgenc and use VBR. Each section could be a chapter on the svcd and I could eliminate the delay between chapters using Nero so it flow nicely.

Like I said, the problem is the time it would take me to encode all of it. The easiest solution for me it seems is to do the first option with turning the bitrate down. Maybe I'm going about it the wrong way. Please correct me if I'm headed in the wrong direction, thank you.

[DJRumpy]

You simply need to run a good temporal smoother, or spatial smoother on your input. You should also use Half D1 (352x480) instead of 480x480. This will allow you to create a compliant disc, without increasing the MAX bitrate out of spec. The lower horizontal resolution reduces the bitrate requirements for your video. These can also be easily moved to DVD-R if you later get a DVD burner.

You should not be using CBR if your having quality issues. The MAX CBR bitrate you can use for a 45 minute SVCD is around 2178 kb/s. Multipass VBR will allow a full MAX bitrate of 2520. I'm assuming you are going to remove any commercial content before encoding. Again, the temporal/spatial smoother is a MUST. It will clean up your signal, and reduce bitrate requirements. You can find a few here: http://shelob.mordor.net/dgraft

Try Min:0, Avg: 2178, Max: 2524
These assume a video of exactly 45 minutes in length. If this isn't the case, use a bitrate calculator to get the highest possible AVG setting for the length of your video.

As to the time it takes for multipass, the Half-D1 resolution will increase your encoding speed minimally. Don't expect miracles in TMPGenc. You should consider CCE, or Main Concept. Both are comparible to TMPGenc in quality while encoding at close to, or even exceeding, realtime playback speeds. I'd suggest CCE Basic, but I'm a CCE fan . Try the demo's, and see if you find the quality acceptable for yourself.

[funkguy4]

I didn't know that 352x480 was in the SVCD spec.....:P
Also, try the SKVCD template from kvcd.net (for TMPGEnc)

I would use CCe, but it doesn't give me enough control over everything.

[DJRumpy]

Be warned, your player may not play the KVCD template. Try it on RW media first if possible. Again, I'd suggest you try CVD format before doing anything out of spec.

funkguy4, the CVD format actaully came before SVCD. Other than resolution the two formats are exactly the same in all other respects. CVD is 352x480 MPEG-2. Audio is 44.1 Khz (44100Hz). If your player can play SVCD, chances are, it will also play CVD. It also has the bonus of being resolution compatible with DVD, requiring you to resample the audio only when moving it to DVD. You avoid re-encoding the video, and you get better compatability than using the SVCD patch method.

[wulf109]

When I was making SVCD's of Star Trek TNG episodes from DVD I used 2200 average B/R.3500 maximum B/R,500 minimum B/R. I also used 720x480 resolution. The results were truly excellent. I used 192bit for my audio.

[funkguy4]

Be warned, your player may not play the KVCD template. Try it on RW media first if possible. Again, I'd suggest you try CVD format before doing anything out of spec.

funkguy4, the CVD format actaully came before SVCD. Other than resolution the two formats are exactly the same in all other respects. CVD is 352x480 MPEG-2. Audio is 44.1 Khz (44100Hz). If your player can play SVCD, chances are, it will also play CVD. It also has the bonus of being resolution compatible with DVD, requiring you to resample the audio only when moving it to DVD. You avoid re-encoding the video, and you get better compatability than using the SVCD patch method.

My player plays XSVCD so that's what I usually do, but nowadays I got a multiformat SONY DVD burner, so thata's what I use! Three movies KDVD style per DVD. O yeah, my player works with irregular GOP and Quantizer.

[DJRumpy]

funkguy4, mine is also an xSVCD player, although I rarely create anything other than DVD. You have to be careful suggesting non-standard formats without any warnings. Newbies tend to get frustrated early on, especially when they create coaster after coaster, and don't know why, hence my warning

wulf109, I'm curious about your low MAX settings. If this was on DVD, why such a low value? A higher max wouldn't have affected your totoal output size in any way, but it would have improved your quality. A max of 3500 is pretty low for a 720x480 frame size.

[funkguy4]

Depending on his source, it might have increased the filesize a little.....I usually do CQ 5000 just like KDVD.......works for me, and I bought my player after looking it up on this site as all novices should learn to do! I did it and I didn't even have a clue what a GOP was back then .

[DJRumpy]

funkguy4, the MAX, and MIN settings have absolutely no affect no the final size. The filesize is dictated completely by the AVG setting. Run a quick test (say a 1 minute clip), changing the min and max values, while leaving the AVG setting alone. You'll see the filesize stays the same. You may get a kbyte or two variance, but nothing of any significance.

The best way to fit multiple projects on a DVD (or any media for that matter), is simply to use a bitrate calculator, and the total video length (in hours/minutes/seconds) for all of your combined video mpegs. This way you optimize the AVG setting to it's highest possible value, without generating MPEG's that are too large to fit onto your media.

[Mordant]

Then there's the question of interlacing. If you are going to SVCD/CVD format with mpeg 2 you can keep your video interlaced, which gives a sharper picture but requires more bitrate. Also use BitrateViewer to see if you should use Top or Bottem Field first. This only matters if you capture at a resolution of 352x480 or higher, and only if doing mpeg2.

[funkguy4]

Yo, DJRumpy, CQ doesn't have an average setting, so it looks at the quality to see how much it can vary the bitrate and to the max to have some sort of guidance as to what the target bitrate should be less than.

[DJRumpy]

funkguy4, since CQ mode has no AVG setting, I don't see how that's relevant . I'm referring to multipass VBR mode AVG setting. Changing the MIN, or MAX values will not have any significant effect on the output size.

[funkguy4]

TMPGEnc is too damn slow to go 2-pass. CQ yields files equal or nearly equal to the quality of 2 pass. I like KDVD :P. I plan to try and transfer KDVD settings to CCE, although it will be hard since CCE has a max P frame setting less 5823. :P to the makers of that!

Anyone like my new avatar?

[DJRumpy]

I use CCE. No speed problems there 8). CQ will indeed produce good quality, but you cannot, with any accuracy, predict the output size. When you are working on mutliple video's, trying to fit them all onto a single disc, CQ VBR is not a good option.

[Gazorgan]

I only do xSVCD at a max of 3500. I tend to do TV audio at 128 (it's TV after all). Shoot for no more than 50 minutes/disk. The quality surpasses VHS in side-by-side comparisons.

[DJRumpy]

I've switched completely to CVD for non DVD projects. You can easily fit 70 or even 80 minutes of video, with AVG settings around 1300 - 1500, with good quality. I use at least 3 passes though. The reduced resolution, with the 3 or 4 pass vbr does an excellent job.