Need Help w/ about 50% of my reencoded movies

[defense]

Hi, I seem to of found about 10% of my backups have some type of flickering/jittering in them. It is NOT the entire picture, just around the top or bottom border, there is flickering. I watched about 15 minutes of Dick Tracy before it became noticeable to me. It is very annoying, especially now because I know it is there, and the originals don't have this problem. After trying different methods, I thought I found the problem when I saw the original Dick Tracy disk had for Scan Type: Alternate. My backup was zig-zag, because I normally select zig zag scanning order for my movies, and it seems to work fine. However, when I reencoded Dick Tracy with Zig Zag Scanning order false, I STILL got the jittering/pulsating when watching it on my standalone player. So I started to try all kinds of things and I noticed that the original vob set is ALL progressive 29.97 fps for the original movie, and my backup is showing interlaced. It's actually showing Interlaced with Bitrateviewer, and showing a hybrid flickering back and forth in DVD2AVI.

Anyway, i'm thinking that this problem is directly related to pulldown and progressive and Interlaced frames somehow. The reason I say that is because that is the ONLY difference between my backup and the original, now that i've elimated six other possibilities. This is becoming more and more frustrating, but I have about 7 or 8 movies with the same problem. To name them..they are, the Patriot, The Phantom Menace, Panic Room, Dude Where's My Car, U-571, The Perfect Storm & Planet of the Apes 2001.

I guess all I can say at this point is that all of these with the problem are movies which have been REENCODED with CCE. Whatever the problem is, there are similarities between all of those movies. I am not an expert on Pulldown, but I thought that an NTSC theatrical release on DVD of a movie was supposed to be 23.97 fps Progressive, and with the pulldown flags, it would turn it into 29.97 fps Interlaced for home televsions.

When I ripped the original vob set from Dick Tracy only the opening credits are Interlaced, the rest of the film is progressive. And within DVD2AVI it is showing 29.97 fps progressive in the original vob set. Not 29.97 fps Interlaced. I'm wondering if I don't use FORCE FILM and just reencode the movie, if I will have any problems.

At this point ANY ADVICE will be appreciated. Thanks

[adam]

Correct, the vast majority of DVDs of theatrically released movies are stored as 23.976fps progressive frames and use RFF/RTF flags (pulldown flags) to telecine the video to 29.97fps interlaced as it plays. This is exactly what you want to duplicate in your backups. Ignoring the opening and closing credits, preview the vobs in dvd2avi and as long as it says
95% or higher film, then turn forced film on. Again, this will apply to just about all NTSC DVDs with the exception of anime and tv series.

From your post it seems you are already using forced film. If not then you have your field order reversed and that is causing the jerkyness. If you use forced film, which you should be doing anyways, than you don't have to worry about this. If you are using forced film...are you perhaps not setting CCE to encode to progressive frames? If you set it to interlaced than it might cause problems. Also, the general rule is that zigzagg is used for progressive and alternate is used for interlaced, though this wouldn't ever cause the problems that you are having.

Don't use CCE's built in 3:2 pulldown option. Depending on what version of CCE you have it is buggy. Try using pulldown.exe instead, at least until you figure out exactly what is causing the problem.

[defense]

Hi Adam, thanks for your time and information. Just to mention a few things, ok..i'm glad I got the progressive/interlace somewhat down pat. But the problem is that I understand that and being that I understand the difference, why am I having this problem with certain movies. I know that problem sounds like what i've read with a "field order" issue, however, I always do the same exact thing for my backups which are all NTSC progressive, for the most part, and have never had a problem that I noticed, until now. I always use pulldown, and "DON'T" use CCE's automation, I do use pulldown.exe. The thing that is ODD with Dick Tracy is that the opening credits are Interlaced, at least that's what they show in DVD2AVI, but the movie itself shows "PROGRESSIVE." Now, I've reencoded the movie, ran force film as always, checked upper field first as always, and checked progressive frames as always. What is odd though is that I know almost all movies I've done which are NTSC show "zig zag" scanning order, and the one or two that were Interlaced, showed "alternate."

What is strange is that DICK TRACY is showing Progressive Frame for the entire film, but it's showing alternate for the scan type. All of the other movies I've mentioned have the same exact problem. The film itself isn't jumping or flickering, ONLY the bottom border. The bottom border and an inch above the bottom border have flickering and it's very noticeable, especially when you know it's there. The originals DON'T have this problem, so I'm not sure what has happened with these films.

What I can say though is that the Original Dick Tracy disk shows progressive and shows alternate scan in bitrateviewer. When I make the backup CHECKING progressive frames in DVD2DVDR and then checking Upper field first, I get an output which is 23.97 fps progressive, and when I run pulldown on it, it changes it to 29.97 fps Interlaced, which Is how it's supposed to be I guess. All I know is the original Vobs show 29.97 fps progressive, and my output after pulldown shows 29.97 fps Interlaced. I'm thinking this has got to have something to do with this problem, especially because I have the same problem on so many other movies. Any other suggestions or advice? I'd appreciate it...thanks again


Note: a quote

Also, the general rule is that zigzagg is used for progressive and alternate is used for interlaced, though this wouldn't ever cause the problems that you are having.

I know, that's why this problem is so odd, and Dick Tracy and these other movies i've mentioned aren't the norm. Dick Tracy shows Progressive AND Alternate scan type, as if it's Interlaced. Very odd

[adam]

The studio logo's and closing credits are almost always NTSC (Interlaced) and the movie itself is progressive. That is why you have to ensure that dvd2avi reports it as being 95% film or higher....that %5 NTSC is for the opening and closing credits.

Remember, the alternate=interlaced and zigzagg=progressive is just a general rule. Depending on what your Quantization Matrix is this rule can be thrown out the window. Every production studio seems to use their own Q-Matrices so don't worry about the scan order of the source. If you use standard Q-Matrices then just follow the general rule.

Don't worry about whether dvd2avi or bitrate viewer reports the movie as interlaced or progressive, it makes no difference and really it doesn't tell you anything. the source is almost always progressive but it usually parses the pulldown flags so it reports it as interlaced. Just go by the % film in dvd2avi. Double check and make sure that all of these films were true ntscfilm sources.

With all that said, I think I know what the problem is and it has nothing to do with any of this. I think these movies are 16:9 and your aspect ratio flag is somehow messed up. Make sure and set the aspect ratio correclty in CCe according to what DVD2AVI reports.

I have heard some people complain that CCE doesnt properly set the 16:9 aspect ratio flag, though I have never experienced this myself. Try using pulldown.exe to reset the 16:9 pulldown flag while you add the pulldown flags. Get the gui and its very easy to do.

[defense]

done

[defense]

adam, you are THE MAN!!! I'm serious, that's crazy that I've spent damn near an entire day trying method after method after method to figure out what in the hell was causing this VERY ODD issue which I couldn't find related posts/topics on. I saw flickering/jitter/studder problems, but that was mainly field order issues. My problem was unique in that it was just around the borders.

I even noticed it a little bit on SPIDERMAN at the top border. Man, what a relief! I just finished burning Dick Tracy for the TENTH time to DVD+RW..lol...and guess what...it looks EXACTLY like the original...just like the other disk..but this time there is ABSOLUTELY NO PULSATING around the bottom border.

I've said it before and will say it again, each and every time i've come across a problem which I try all sorts of solutions for and can't find..a mod or senior poster comes along and always sooner or later gives a helping hand to solve the problem. Thanks for all your help adam, it is really appreciated!

I have a coule of quick questions for you if you don't mind. I ran "pulldown" with the GUI and selected 16:9 aspect ratio flag, & progressive frames. Was selecting progressive frames necessary? I guess they would be progressive anyway if I selected them within CCE right? I'm just asking though to be sure.

I should of ALWAYS gone with my instinct and that was to select 16:9 aspect ratio, each frame to progressive, and 29.97 fps with the pulldown GUI. This time I didn't select 29.97 fps, so I don't know if that matters or if the progressive frames part matters, but hopefully you'll let me know. But I used to select all three of those options when running pulldown and NEVER had a problem. Then a couple of posters a couple of months ago said oh...you don't have to select any options with that GUI..just hit go and it will place the necessary flags, etc. Well, I see that has now cost me a TON OF TIME and $$$$ on disks! But fortunately they are excellent inexpensive disks.

And everything has a price. Anyway, the last question I have for you is why I have about 8-10 movies with this EXACT same problem, but I also have about 20 which needed reencoding and I did those movies the SAME way with DVD2DVDR AND CCE, and I've checked all of those movies thoroughly and they all play perfectly..borders and all. Alot of those are the same type of 16:9 as the 8-10 I have here. Do you have any idea why that might be? Anyway, when you get a chance if you can let me know that and what options I should run with the pulldown GUI, I think I will be very busy in the days to come with getting these movies re-authored and burned.

Thanks once again for all your help, you were a saviour with this problem!

[adam]

You don't need to set it to progressive frames or to 29.97fps. You really should not need to change anything from the defaults at all, but apparantely CCE sometimes doesn't set the 16:9 flag correctly, which is why you need to change just this one setting. I'm not sure why only some of your DVDs have this problem. The most obvious reason would be that these are the only dvds that you have backed up that had a source aspect ratio of 16:9, but I doubt that is the case. I think that this CCE problem is probably just a random occurrence, and it may be dependant to some extent on your source, though I can't think of what could be triggering it. In any case I would recommend just using your normal process except set the 16:9 flag in pulldown and hopefully you'll never see this problem again.

Glad it seems to be working.

[defense]

In any case I would recommend just using your normal process except set the 16:9 flag in pulldown and hopefully you'll never see this problem again.

Glad it seems to be working.

Thanks once again. Well, I guess as long as I can use the aspect ratio flag in pulldown to get rid of this problem for good, then that is all that matters. It's just a relief that you diagnosed this problem because I can't see how I would of EVER thought about the aspect ratio flag when the movie was playing at a PERFECT 16:9. I mean the aspect ratio itself was just like the original, with the exception of the bottom border shaking. From now on though I will make sure to ALWAYS use that aspect ratio flag and it looks like I won't have this problem again. Thanks once again for all the info, time, and help!

[defense]

damn it! Just when I thought this problem was beaten, it comes right back and bites a chunk out of my ass.



...man, I am getting real frustrated now. I've been using whatever time I could find to rip and re-author all of the movies which this pulsating around the very top or bottom border has occurred on. I have a 40 GB hard drive so over the last day i've managed to rip and author four movies. I did the same as I did on Dick Tracy which was to run pulldown with the 16:9 aspect ratio and figured everything would be alright. When I went to burn my first movie which happened to be K-19, I was AMAZED that the rapid flickering around the bottom border was still there. Then I tested the other movies with my RW, and THE FLICKERING/Jittering was STILL THERE...can you believe that?

Talk about frustrating. All of these movies have the flickering/pulsating around the BOTTOM border, except "THE OTHERS" which has the pulsating around the "TOP" border. I am really baffled now. Do you have ANY clue how in the world my first attempt with your method of Dick Tracy worked? Just to give you a little info, i've thoroughly tested all of my encoded movies and the ones that have this problem are K19, U-571, The Phantom Menace, Spiderman, Dude, Where's my car, The Perfect Storm, Seven, The Patriot, Superman, Panic Room, and Planet of the Apes 2001, and of course, Dick Tracy which is now re-burned "FIXED" and working fine on a new DVD-R. Do these movies all have something in common which is causing this?

Just when I thought this problem was solved. The ONLY thing I can think of that I did differently with Dick Tracy as opposed to all of these movies, is that with Dick Tracy I not only selected 16:9 aspect ratio in the pulldown.exe GUI, but I ALSO selected progressive frames. I am going to try "PANIC ROOM" which has the MOST OBVIOUS flickering/jittering on the bottom borders and run PULLDOWN with the 16:9 aspect ratio as well as progressive frames, just like I did for Dick Tracy and I hope to GOD that works because this is really crazy now. If anyone knows what else I can try to fix this problem, PLEASE let me know. Thanks

[defense]

Son of a Bitch! After two full days and countless hours of this problem, I think I found the solution!

I just decided that I was going to analyze EACH and every one of these problem movies until I found similarities which could cause this. Listen to this. First, I opened up DVD2AVI and checked EACH of the movies and to my surprise DVD2AVI was flickering back and forth for the ENTIRE movie as a hybrid of BOTH progressive AND Interlaced frames. Then I took the DICK TRACY movie I had a problem with and the same was true. So I decided to take the Dick Tracy movie which WORKS and the credits and entire movie showed as progressive within DVD2AVI. Not only that, I took about five or so movies which did NOT have this problem and which I also had to REENCODE WITH CCE and guess what...they are ALL Progressive from the opening credits until the end. It appears that the movies which are a hybrid are causing this issue. If I am right, I wonder if it is DVD2DVDR or CCE. I am selecting "progressive frames" to true, but apparently on the output of all of these movies, they are still coming out both progressive and interlaced. Now I once again have to re-rip the movies and run pulldown with progressive frames to true and see what happens. I have a VERY STRONG feeling i'm gonna finally get a perfect backup.

This really is VERY INTERESTING and if this proves right, I would think A LOT of people that run pulldown on these HYBRID frame movies and DON'T select Progressive frames in the GUI for NTSC films ALSO have to have this problem. Has anyone ever heard of this problem before? I am going to do panic room again which happens to have the MOST noticeable problems. Probably because it is a hybrid/ superbit DVD.

Anyway, I have no clue what prompted me to select progressive frames within the pulldown GUI but I did and it looks like that was the problem. Although I will still choose 16:9 under the aspect ratio because of what adam mentioned. I just think this is really crazy. I will report back with my results. Of course if Panic Room works, I will do another one or two of the problem movies before I report back JUST TO MAKE SURE. But I feel strongly on this.

[defense]

not that anyone is reading my lengthly posts or gives a rats ass, but being that I've spent damn near 3 full days of my vacation time being obsessed with this problem, It now seems like, (and I don't wanna jump the gun), but it seems like this problem has now been resolved.

adam, thank you once again for your reply. I definitely understand everything you are saying but first let me say that I just retried a couple of movies using the "progressive frames" option within the pulldown GUI, and guess what....THEY ARE PERFECT! That includes Panic Room which was the worst of them all for some reason. The bottom border was jumping around like crazy before and now there is NONE of that...YESSSSSSS....But I won't be happy until I do ALL of them the same way.

All of the problem movies I have flicker back and forth within DVD2AVI and show a hybrid for the ENTIRE movie, not just credits. I am using DVD2DVDR and I select three options usually. They are FORCE FILM, Progressive Frames, and Upper Field First. Now, I would think by selecting "progressive frames" that CCE would make all my frames "progressive" wouldn't it? Isn't that why I'm selecting "progressive frames?" If so, then either DVD2DVDR, at least the version I have which is the second version out, 1.3.2 or CCE is not changing the frames to "progressive."

Now, I know you mentioned that your scenario of having to leave the film at 29.97 fps Interlaced if it weren't 95% of film or greater is only for RARE situations, and I can't see how I can have about 30 reencoded movies, and ALMOST HALF of them have this problem. Now just when I thought it was the progressive/Interlace hybrid issue, I checked some OTHER reencoded movies I have in DVD2AVI thinking they would show just progressive because they didn't have this problem...and to my AMAZEMENT, they were ALSO showing a hybrid between progressive and interlace flickering back and forth for the ENTIRE movie. Just to give you the name of some of the movies that are PERFECT and don't have this problem but appear to be the same structure as my problem onces but aren't.

Some of them are Gladiator, Vanilla Sky, Minority Report, Trading Places, Ferris Bueller's Day Off. Those are just a few of the ones that play PERFECTLY, but again, I ran pulldown on all of those just like these and when I did I didn't select progressive frames, I just enabled 2:3 pulldown, just like the bad movies. Also, as I said, those movies which play fine, also have flickering in DVD2AVI back and forth on the backup. I'm thinking all of the frames should say progressive on my backup because that's what i select in CCE, right? Please let me know when you get a chance becuase it looks like with the movies I've redone by selecting "PROGRESSIVE FRAMES" in pulldown.

Whatever this issue is, it seems to be rectified by just selecting progressive frames and when I test the .M2V which I run pulldown on with "progressive frames" DVD2AVI shows "progressive frames" for the entire movie, credits and all, and when I burn it..it plays flawlessly. Please let me know what you think could be causing this now, I am completely baffled...thanks once again for your time and help.


As I said, it looks as though by running my streamed/ripped .M2V through PULLDOWN with progressive frames true, this problem is resolved. If ANYONE knows what may be causing this problem though, please let me know. Thanks