3:2 and forty-two..*update*

[KaiCherry]

Well. Looks like it *might* work. The intial tests are sync...

BUT

It looks like my software players are having scene-change artifact issues (probably ignoring Broken GOP flags, my guess)

has anyone seen this issue using PulldownX? If not, what settings are you using? (I am NOT using this, but the port of pulldown from windows to unix).

I'm going to run a frew more test clips and a short run DVD and burn it and see what it does on my settops...

Oh yeah, also settting this for SVCD/CVD as well since it appears they are supposed to be this way as well.

-K

[AntnyMD]

I'm recalling the PulldownX GUI from memory. When you start it up, adding 3:2 pulldown flags is enabled by default. That was always sufficient for my uses when I used it with video encoded via ffmpegX. It has some other options (like make all frames progressive, or make entire stream progressive, but I noticed no difference in the encode when I turned those options on).

[KaiCherry]

it appeared to be that particular dvd (so far)...so it looks like its in...

It will take a couple of hours for this short run here to finish, but it looks like its doing what it should, so its in

-K

[mlindber]

Will this by any chance allow for 3:2 pulldown removal for discs that are encoded as 29.97 fps on DVD, but I want to make a 24 fps XviD out of them?

[KaiCherry]

Will this by any chance allow for 3:2 pulldown removal for discs that are encoded as 29.97 fps on DVD, but I want to make a 24 fps XviD out of them?

why would you want to do this? it will not sync if its truely ntsc video if its film, with pulldown, the forty-two handles this automatically.

-K

[mlindber]

why would you want to do this? it will not sync if its truely ntsc video if its film, with pulldown, the forty-two handles this automatically.

-K

You'd think that.

Let me run a few tests with some discs that gave ffmpegX trouble detecting 3:2 pulldown. I honestly have only tried film encoded discs with 42. I'll give it a go and post again.

Also, I have a disc with a space in the DVD volume name ("memento mori" is what shows up in my drive window), and 42 doesn't seem to recognize it when I drag it into the little "drag DVD here" thingy. Any idea if this would be an easy fix? I can get it to be recognized in ffmpegX, because you select drive path in that program, but 3:2 pulldown removal doesn't work with that disc.

[mlindber]

Tested the disc. It didn't crop correctly first of all (it was a 2.35:1 aspect ratio disc), and I still got combing (which means it didn't combine the 60 fields down to 24fps). It would be REALLY nice if there was a force 3:2 pulldown removal setting. Neither 42, DiVA, or ffmpegX include this, making a good many of my DVDs useless. Edit: well, useless to rip.

[KaiCherry]

Tested the disc. It didn't crop correctly first of all (it was a 2.35:1 aspect ratio disc), and I still got combing (which means it didn't combine the 60 fields down to 24fps). It would be REALLY nice if there was a force 3:2 pulldown removal setting. Neither 42, DiVA, or ffmpegX include this, making a good many of my DVDs useless. Edit: well, useless to rip.

DUDE...

This DOESN'T work. IT WON'T be in sync Why would we include a feature that would cause the results to be poop?

This is Yet Another F*cking DVD Misconception If the source is NTSC Video, "forcing" it to be otherwise causes sync probs out the ying-yang. Not all DVDs are 3:2 pulldown...quite a few of them (TV, OAVs, Pan/Scan) are *actually* NTSC Video.

Secondly, The "60 fields" thing is also wrong. forty-two doesn't *deinterlace* anymore, as a speed tradeoff. If it were *deinterlacing* (which has nothing to do with the framerate) then the combing wouldn't be there. I'll probably add it back as the last two divx's that I did were kind of annoying because of this.

As for the cropping, don't know what to tell ya...mu gues is that it couldn't detect the black bars where it was looking on your particular dvd.

-K

[AntnyMD]

Just a note: some DVDs are hard coded 4:3 NTSC Video with letterboxed content -- just like a VHS tape (which is different than 16:9 anamorphic content that automatically letterboxes on your 4:3 TV and fills as much of the screen as possible on your 16:9 TV). Two such DVD's I've purchased like this are Titanic, and The Defiant Ones. I felt ripped off especially by the Titanic release, as it was done this way solely to create a market by fans for when the "new" "expanded" "remastered" anamorphic release hits the streets in a couple years.

If a DVD is truly anamorphic, you can always verify that in a software player in your computer, because it will play in a 16:9 window.

[KaiCherry]

Yep... this was another pain in the ass thing we had to code for

His problen is a divx one, however.

Back to the subject at hand:

Its Official: 3:2 pulldown is in I got it working, my settops like it, the rare Broken GOP thing doesn't seem to be an issue on my *real* DVD players, so...

forty-two will now automatically do the pulldown on appropriate video (MPEG 2, NTSC film) as part of its normal operation...nothing to set, it "just works".

-K

Just a note: some DVDs are hard coded 4:3 NTSC Video with letterboxed content -- just like a VHS tape (which is different than 16:9 anamorphic content that automatically letterboxes on your 4:3 TV and fills as much of the screen as possible on your 16:9 TV). Two such DVD's I've purchased like this are Titanic, and The Defiant Ones. I felt ripped off especially by the Titanic release, as it was done this way solely to create a market by fans for when the "new" "expanded" "remastered" anamorphic release hits the streets in a couple years.

If a DVD is truly anamorphic, you can always verify that in a software player in your computer, because it will play in a 16:9 window.

[KaiCherry]

BTW, since I know folks like to know these things...the settings I used were:

DVD Q1, 8000K, CBR

-K

[mlindber]

This DOESN'T work. IT WON'T be in sync Why would we include a feature that would cause the results to be poop?

This is Yet Another F*cking DVD Misconception If the source is NTSC Video, "forcing" it to be otherwise causes sync probs out the ying-yang. Not all DVDs are 3:2 pulldown...quite a few of them (TV, OAVs, Pan/Scan) are *actually* NTSC Video.

There are a few things you don't understand. First of all, DVDs can be encoded at two fps (I'm ONLY talking about NTSC here), 24fps, and 29.97 fps. The former is encoded with flags in the stream to allow it to be played back on NTSC televisions at 29.97 fps. The other doesn't need flags in the stream because it is already encoded as 29.97 fps. Progressive scan DVD players either ignore the flags, or detect 3:2 pulldown and remove it (WHICH IS WHAT I WANT TO DO) to allow it to display on progressive displays without combing.

What I just posted refers ONLY to FILM based content. Video content (that which is shot on NTSC video) is deinterlaced in other means. This is NOT what I'm asking 42 to do. What I'm asking is for it to detect film content from a 29.97 fps stream. This is a film, shot at 24fps, encoded on DVD at 29.97 fps. MANY Hong Kong and Korean DVDs are encoded as such (and these are legal DVDs). Put it in the DVD-ROM, play it back in Apple DVD Player, and you'll see combing (because the player neither does 3:2 pulldown removal, nor does it do any kind of deinterlacing other than weave).

Enable 3:2 pulldown removal on an extracted movie file, then I get a perfect 24 fps stream, perfectly in sync with sound. This is on a PC, of course. I'd like to do this with 42. None of the current DVD converter programs do this, and it is really getting frustrating having to put aside DVDs that simply can't converted properly on a Mac.

The DVD I'm using is Sympathy for Mr. Vengeance, the recent Korean film (shot on film) by the director of JSA. I'm not using a TV show or OAV. Pan and Scan stuff is NTSC video because the pans are usually done in a 29.97 fps fashion. The actual content being pan and scanned is usually 29.97 fps with 3:2 pulldown, and would need 3:2 pulldown removal to get to the original 24fps.

Also, this argument is also biased towards progressive scan devices. If I was using an NTSC display, I wouldn't see combing.

[mlindber]

If a DVD is truly anamorphic, you can always verify that in a software player in your computer, because it will play in a 16:9 window.

It is truly anamorphic. It is a 2.35:1 anamorphic ratio. It is being displayed as it would on a 16:9 TV (with black bars on the top and bottom). The black bars don't need to be there on a DivX encode.

[KaiCherry]

Oh Geeeezzz another one...

Sigh. where do we begin:

There are a few things you don't understand. First of all, DVDs can be encoded at two fps (I'm ONLY talking about NTSC here), 24fps, and 29.97 fps. The former is encoded with flags in the stream to allow it to be played back on NTSC televisions at 29.97 fps. The other doesn't need flags in the stream because it is already encoded as 29.97 fps. Progressive scan DVD players either ignore the flags, or detect 3:2 pulldown and remove it (WHICH IS WHAT I WANT TO DO) to allow it to display on progressive displays without combing.

This is exactly what forty-two does. Why do you think folks are having this discussion about *resetting* these flags on Mpeg2 video?!?!

In fact the reason *why* forty-two works as well as it does is *exactly* this...it looks at the actual video stream and ignoners the flags to determine the framerate of he content.

What I just posted refers ONLY to FILM based content. Video content (that which is shot on NTSC video) is deinterlaced in other means. This is NOT what I'm asking 42 to do. What I'm asking is for it to detect film content from a 29.97 fps stream. This is a film, shot at 24fps, encoded on DVD at 29.97 fps. MANY Hong Kong and Korean DVDs are encoded as such (and these are legal DVDs). Put it in the DVD-ROM, play it back in Apple DVD Player, and you'll see combing (because the player neither does 3:2 pulldown removal, nor does it do any kind of deinterlacing other than weave).

If it was actually encoded onto the DVD as NTSC film, then thats what forty-two will pick up. It sounds to me as if you *believe* it is film, since it was shot that way, when in fact it was telecined then encoded at a hard NTSC video rate.

This is not uncommon, and is IMHO a ripoff.

I am *well aware* of how forty-two works and how dvds are encoded. If forty-two tells you that the test clip has ~1700 frames, its because its NTSC *VIDEO* not NTSC *FILM*

Perhaps the film version is actually in another titleset?

-K

[KaiCherry]

If a DVD is truly anamorphic, you can always verify that in a software player in your computer, because it will play in a 16:9 window.

It is truly anamorphic. It is a 2.35:1 anamorphic ratio. It is being displayed as it would on a 16:9 TV (with black bars on the top and bottom). The black bars don't need to be there on a DivX encode.

If this DVD does not have a chapter 2 in the titleset you are trying to convert, the detection of virtually everything will fail and it is not compatable with forty-two.

Framerate, cropping, the whole shebang.

-K

[mlindber]

This is exactly what forty-two does. Why do you think folks are having this discussion about *resetting* these flags on Mpeg2 video?!?!

In fact the reason *why* forty-two works as well as it does is *exactly* this...it looks at the actual video stream and ignoners the flags to determine the framerate of he content.

So please tell me why the video content is combing. Shouldn't it detect the 3:2 pulldown (telecine) and then remove it?

If it was actually encoded onto the DVD as NTSC film, then thats what forty-two will pick up. It sounds to me as if you *believe* it is film, since it was shot that way, when in fact it was telecined then encoded at a hard NTSC video rate.

This is not uncommon, and is IMHO a ripoff.

I know that it is encoded at NTSC video rate. 3:2 pulldown removal takes the 60 fields of the NTSC video rate and puts the video back to its original 24 progressive frames.

It WAS shot on film, and was encoded with 3:2 pulldown to work on NTSC TVs. I want to get the original 24fps back from the 29.97 fps. You use 3:2 pulldown REMOVAL (or INVERSE telecine) to get rid of this. Forcing 3:2 pulldown seems to be the only way to get the original 24fps. If 42 is supposed to detect material that is telecined and then inverse telecine it, IT IS NOT WORKING, which is why I'd like for there to be a way to force it to do inverse telecine since I KNOW that is what I need.

[mlindber]

If this DVD does not have a chapter 2 in the titleset you are trying to convert, the detection of virtually everything will fail and it is not compatable with forty-two.

Framerate, cropping, the whole shebang.

-K

It has plenty of chapters. 20 or so.

Tell you what. If you want me to send you one of these problematic DVDs, I can do that. It has definitely become a sore point in my encoding of DivX's when every other disc I try to throw out it is 29.97 fps telecined and my only option is to do 29.97 fps directly and not derive the original 24fps.

[KaiCherry]

If this DVD does not have a chapter 2 in the titleset you are trying to convert, the detection of virtually everything will fail and it is not compatable with forty-two.

Framerate, cropping, the whole shebang.

-K

It has plenty of chapters. 20 or so.

Tell you what. If you want me to send you one of these problematic DVDs, I can do that. It has definitely become a sore point in my encoding of DivX's when every other disc I try to throw out it is 29.97 fps telecined and my only option is to do 29.97 fps directly and not derive the original 24fps.

WHY DO YOU THINK ITS NTSC FILM?!?!

What categorical, imperical evidence do you have for this notion? you said it yourself "ever other disc" is doing what you believe its supposed to.

Could it be that the dvd is actually telecined to Video, like I said? Could this even be a remote posibility?

What *is* it with people? Just because you want it to be a certain way by no means makes it so. If forty-two is telling you its video, its because out of the *hundreds* of frames it analysed on various spots on the dvd *it is video*.

I don't care if it was shot with film or not, if it was converted to Video, encoded as video mastered as video and shipped as video, then By Gumm, that what it is

-K

[mlindber]

What categorical, imperical evidence do you have for this notion? you said it yourself "ever other disc" is doing what you believe its supposed to.

I can't believe how much we are misunderstanding one another. Do you know what 3:2 pulldown removal is? PLEASE provide me with your definition and WHAT IT DOES and WHAT IT IS USED FOR.

The "catagorical, imperical" evidence I have is derived from a program called DVD2AVI on the PC that lets me know what the frame rate of the total DVD video is. If you are not familiar with this program, you have nothing to say in this matter. It tells me whether the DVD video is 24fps (obviously with things encoded in the stream to allow display on NTSC displays) or 29.97 fps. You can also tell by popping a disc into Apple's DVD Player. If it combs, it is encoded as video.

Whether or not the 29.97 fps is TELECINED is determined either by sight (I can tell the difference visually) or by knowledge of what the program was shot on. If it was shot on video, it would be 29.97 fps with 60 unique fields per second. If it was shot on film, it would be TELECINED to 29.97 fps.

I AM FULLY AWARE THAT THE VIDEO IS ENCODED AT 29.97 fps. It is 29.97 fps BECAUSE it was TELECINED. I DON'T WANT TO ENCODE A DIVX AT 29.97 FPS. I want to get to the ORIGINAL 24 fps. This process is called INVERSE TELECINE or 3:2 pulldown removal. Go look it up. It is a very SIMPLE process and one that is done ALL THE TIME on DVD Players.

Could it be that the dvd is actually telecined to Video, like I said? Could this even be a remote posibility?

That is EXACTLY what I said. The film is TELECINED to Video. I want to use INVERSE TELECINE to get it back to its ORIGINAL film frame rate. You are either telling me I don't want to do this, or that 42 should do this automatically, both of which are completely false.

What *is* it with people? Just because you want it to be a certain way by no means makes it so. If forty-two is telling you its video, its because out of the *hundreds* of frames it analysed on various spots on the dvd *it is video*.

I don't care if it was shot with film or not, if it was converted to Video, encoded as video mastered as video and shipped as video, then By Gumm, that what it is

I have never once debated it was encoded as video. I want to get back to the original frame rate. If you think this is impossible, then PLEASE tell me what inverse telecine is. That is EXACTLY the process I want to use. IF inverse telecine is already used, or it is supposed to detect automatically, 42 IS BROKEN in this regard and needs to be fixed.

I will be happy to send a DVD to you to show you an example, and I apologize if this is sounding desperate. I've butted heads with the other developers of DVD conversion programs, and none of you have been able to give me a satisfactory answer on what to do with 29.97 telecined discs. I highly doubt it is my setup, either, because I've successfully taken the same discs and used a PC, inveresed telecined the disc, then got a perfect 24fps encode.

[KaiCherry]

Dude... You are about to butt heads with someone that is time enough for' yo' azz...for real?

It doesn't matter what they shot the damned movie on. forty-two, as everyone here BUT YOU seems to realize, uses *several* methodolgies to determine what framerate the video is.

I have examined *hundreds* of dvds at this point and all of them follow at least *SOME* patterns based on the detailed analysis that we've done and worked out.

The bottom line is this.

That DVD cannot be converted to a lower framerate. It VIDEO. How it got that way is not relevant. ON THAT DVD its video...it cannot be converted to film in a reliable way because the data to do this isn't there. It will not sync.

If the data WAS THERE and it was encoded in such a way to make it happen, it would have.

PERIOD. You can yell, kick, scream (I'm very familiar with DVD2AVI...forty-two was designed to be its antithesis...it was designed to think).

Sending the DVD won't do any good, because the analysis will show that it is VIDEO, as much as a VIDEO Simpson's episode (as opposed to a film one...we can see the difference due to this whole *math* thing built into DVDMP)

So ya. Drop it. Let it go. Everyone else in the world is wrong. Good luck. leave me out of your whatever-it-is.

As for what forty-two will or will not do, Its really obvious to some of us. 97% or better, if will give you an in-sync video.

And the whole combing thing is a riot, too. I told you *exactly* why this is happening, told you in the old version it did NOT, told you what was changed, and yet you go on yammering.

ONCE ITS A DIVX, all of the rest of that is NOT REVELVANT. You *WON'T* be able to get it to sync at NTSC Film (cus it ain't) but you CAN get it deinterlaced at "video" rate...because THE TWO ARE NOT RELEVANT in this particular situation.

Take your insulting, "Why won't you people listen to me? Don't you understand?" idiocy elsewhere.

Like I said, its YOU whining about wanting a Pink Sky when we all point out that it is blue.

Take the goddamned dvd and run it thru ffmpegX AT VIDEO RATE, turn on the De-interlacing (I assume major is using lavcdeint, dunno) and DEAL WITH IT.

Its a damned "AVI PLAYBACK on my computer" file. Argh!

You run it thru ffmpegX at film rate, I guarantee it won't sync. I know all about the telecine process and what I'm telling you is the *digital data that would allow it to be reversed is NOT THERE or it would have been*.

Now beat it.

-K

[mlindber]

The funniest part is that I've tried deinterlacing, I still get combing, I try film frame rate, it doesn't do 3:2 pulldown removal, and I still get combing (I also thought it may have to do with it doing it doesn't do a damn thing. You just assume that I whine and complain for no reason, and don't actually research, post on other forums, or use other programs. I have tried every single damn setting in ffmpegX. I've e-mailed the author asking how I get good encodes, and he hasn't been very helpful.

This disc does not need to be deinterlaced. It needs 3:2 pulldown removal. It has the same 3:2 cadence that laserdiscs have (I've checked, personally), and they are fixed by using 3:2 pulldown removal. I'm sorry if I came across as difficult, but I really am not meaning to be. I'm simply seeking an answer for my questions. I'm just trying to get my encodes to look decent.

That is why I'm offering to send you a disc so you can help me figure out just why the disc combs in the way it does. It is NTSC Telecined video. If it doesn't need to be inverse telecined, and deinterlacing doesn't work (it makes the image studder and comb, although I don't know what ffmpegX uses for deinterlacing, a motion adaptive one may be better suited), then what needs to be done? That is all I'm asking.

I apologize again for coming off as abrasive. I really am only seeking answers to questions.

[KaiCherry]

The tone of this is *SO MUCH BETTER*...Thank you. I understand your frustration.

IM me. I will try to walk you thru things you can do in the terminal to try to get a result you want *if you are willing to listen and not argue*

In fact, I may even see if I have an old forty-two around. .06 in all its ugliness, or 1.0 may do more of what you had in mind. It *still* won't change the framerate, because in all honesty, whomever did your transfer seems to be on crack also, I asked you this and you never answered, did you try a different titleset? It could very well be (especially if its a 6-8GB DVD) that there is a version on the disk that is "The Right Way"

-K

The funniest part is that I've tried deinterlacing, I still get combing, I try film frame rate, it doesn't do 3:2 pulldown removal, and I still get combing (I also thought it may have to do with it doing it doesn't do a damn thing. You just assume that I whine and complain for no reason, and don't actually research, post on other forums, or use other programs. I have tried every single damn setting in ffmpegX. I've e-mailed the author asking how I get good encodes, and he hasn't been very helpful.

This disc does not need to be deinterlaced. It needs 3:2 pulldown removal. It has the same 3:2 cadence that laserdiscs have (I've checked, personally), and they are fixed by using 3:2 pulldown removal. I'm sorry if I came across as difficult, but I really am not meaning to be. I'm simply seeking an answer for my questions. I'm just trying to get my encodes to look decent.

That is why I'm offering to send you a disc so you can help me figure out just why the disc combs in the way it does. It is NTSC Telecined video. If it doesn't need to be inverse telecined, and deinterlacing doesn't work (it makes the image studder and comb, although I don't know what ffmpegX uses for deinterlacing, a motion adaptive one may be better suited), then what needs to be done? That is all I'm asking.

I apologize again for coming off as abrasive. I really am only seeking answers to questions.

[AntnyMD]

Not to start the bitterness up again, but I read through all the verbosity just now. I'd just like to state that inverse telecining and 3:2 pulldown removal are two different concepts.

Inverse telecining is systematically dropping repeated frames from a 29.97 fps source during re-encoding so as to produce a 24fps output. I think it also works in tandem with the audio which is in sync with the 29.97 source so that it drops the right amount of frames from the audio as well. I've only heard of this ever working on the PC.

3:2 pulldown removal does not involve re-encoding (as familiar users of PulldownX can attest to). It simply removes subcode information from a 24 fps source. There is no re-encoding necessary, and it doesn't affect an audio stream that was already in sync to the 24 fps source.

[KaiCherry]

Inverse telecining is systematically dropping repeated frames from a 29.97 fps source during re-encoding so as to produce a 24fps output.

We talked about this "offline" and the determination was made that as I suspected, his source was not telecined digitally, hence no frames to drop.

-K

[mlindber]

Not to start the bitterness up again, but I read through all the verbosity just now. I'd just like to state that inverse telecining and 3:2 pulldown removal are two different concepts.

Actually, they are used interchangebly. There is a difference between "hard" telecine and flagged telecine, though, and that's where we run into issues. See:

http://www.lukesvideo.com/telecining2.html

They are the same concepts. The DVDs I have are telecined, but they are "hard" telecined, and mencoder can't do anything about those but do a straight deinterlacing. It is encoded as NTSC video and not film with NTSC flags (like most Hollywood DVDs).

I have found solutions on the PC that should work great, and allow me to get the original 24fps back without any abnormal judder. There as of right now is no real good way to deal with this on a Mac, at least using mencoder. I haven't figured out Pulldown X, but I'm almost fairly certain there is no processing going on (because it would need to re-encode the MPEG2 stream, it isn't a matter of switching on or off a flag).

Straight up deinterlacing looks unnatural, and trying to force it to 24 fps (which theoretically SHOULD make it go "Hmmm, 29.97 to 24 fps, lets reinterleave and drop every fifth frame" and do inverse telecine) just results in a straight transcode to 24 fps, which as you would guess, looks like absolute crap.

About the only solution I could think of would be to use Cinema Tools in Final Cut Pro (which I know has 3:2 pulldown and 3:2 pulldown removal), but I have neither, it would be tremendously slow and complicated, and could probably buy a pretty good PC for the price. The demo for Cleaner didn't show anything useful either.

Oh well.