Home made Tivo

[flaninacupboard]

so, i was curious if any of you have made your own Tivo yet from one of these mini-itx boards? mines in the post and i'll get building after christmas, just curious if anyone has has given it a go and what problems you ran into.

Edd.

[The village idiot]

From using an older board, you might expect problems from the VIA chipsets. Hopefully they have fixed the problems since I tried this. The chips I was using were PL133, lots of problems. The newer chips in the Epia boards may not give problems. Look forward to hearing your results, since sometime in the future I will order one of those type boards. I'm waiting for the Epia M or newer, because I want the onboard firewire support.

[flaninacupboard]

well, the board arrived and the results aren't good.
running the epia-800 board with a bt878a capture card and 256megs of 133 ram i can't capture using huffyuv in showshifter at full resolution, and the best i can manage is mjpeg at a mediocre quality. has anyone had experience with one of these mini motherboards and a a different capture card producing better results?

[The village idiot]

Sounds like Epia 800 runs one of the VIA chipsets that gives you problems. I had terrible luck with a Shuttle FV-24 board and a BT based capture card. If I'm not mistaken, the Epia 800 uses the same/similar chipset. Sorry, sounds like headache time. The E800 probably won't work well with Razzle DVC2 either. You could try running win 98 and see if that will let you work the card better. The downside of this is the FAT32 file system, and the 4 gig limit. You might also try Linux, as the main board is certified to run on linux and embedded linux. Can't really help you there, as I don't know much about *nix.

Waiting 'til after next weekend to order my Epia M. Still not sure if I want the 6000 or 9000. Probably the 9000 for more power.

[flaninacupboard]

no i don't think it's any kind of issue with the drivers or incompatibility or such, it's just not quick enough. the CPU usage sits on 100% and i get 10 dropped frames a second. using the same setup my athlon 650 captures ok, but CPU use sits on 92% constantly. i think i'll have to give up with an orinary capture card, and go the DV route. the canopus DVC-50 is only about 150 pounds so add a cheap firewire card and i'm done. shame i didn;t get an M, they have firewire onboard

[vhelp]

Hmmm...


--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---
Not to be outdone by its silent sibling, the more powerful (and still very quiet) EPIA 800 features
the same embedded onboard graphics, audio, 10/100 Ethernet, USB and TV-Out support but with an
800Mhz C3 CPU. As you can see, we're using ours as a mouse mat - but you could put it to a more
practical use. Two PC133 SDRAM DIMM memory slots. DIMMs here.
--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---

That Epia 800 was Quite interesting looking. sorry I didn't
take the time to look at it WAY back then (dec 21, 02) when I read
this thread then. And, look'it the size of that thing he, he...
Nother question, do you know (from experinece w/ yours) how's the
TV-OUT quality/performance is like ??

flaninacupboard,
I'm quite sure the ADVC-50 will do well w/ your LD projects, but
case you need to know, there is no OUT on this 1394 card - only an
IN. The ADVC-100 has IN/OUT.. so you can view on your TV, what
you are ADVC'ing.
.
.
Also, just curious, if you could elaborate on this mini TIVO idea
of yours. How ?? and/or in what way ??
VERY interesting..

Looking forward to any response on this topic (any of those items)
-vhelp

[The village idiot]

Vhelp,
On my older Shuttle FV-24 the TV out was very good. The FV-24 was modeled on the then prototype ITX boards. So it has most of the same features. But the new Epia M series is even better. Start with DDR ram, and an onboard mpeg decoder. The decoder is said to provide just enough more power to keep the CPU from 100 percent when playing DVD's with the M6000 (633 Mhz VIA C3esp processor) or get the 900Mhz, but you will need a processor fan with that one. Info can be had at http://www.mini-itx.com/.

My upcoming project will be the following:

An epia M series main board
Lots of ram
Great big hard disk
Bootable flash disk (maybe depends on the price of this option)
HDTV tuner card for pvr
Little tiny case
Only use TV out, no computer monitor (except to maybe set the thing up)
Wireless keyboard or other wireless remote control
One, or all, WinXP media center, XP embedded, Win CE, Linux (which ever works best!) Got to wait 'til next weekend to order things

Might use an LCD for the Sony PSone game device. I've used it for this in the past, and it works OK for portable needs. Hard to read, but if you know which buttons do what thing, you can get by to capture, etc.


XP embedded and CE can be had from Microsoft for free (120 day working period), and these boards are certified to work with XPe and CE, as well as Linux. I'm still kind of worried about the VIA chipset though. I've had so many problems with other tv/capture cards with previous VIA chipsets.

[The village idiot]

Here is but one review:

http://www.tweaknews.net/reviews/viaepiam9000/

[crahak]

Well, that mini tivo idea is more or less a HTPC... Or something like it anyhow... Mind you, I don't mind if it takes more than 6 square inches on a shelf, I'm going full ATX, and it will be cheap too The other thing with these boards is limitations, in such small boards, you only have so many slots, and I'm not a big fan of C3 CPU's yet. (I know they DO pack a lot on a little board though) Upgradeability is very questionnable.

Lots of RAM won't do much.
big HD? sure, 7200 rpm ones are noisier than 5400's too... tivo's, replaytv, BEV's PVR and others al use 5400 rpms afaik.
I'm still trying to find a point to a flash diskm but I'll leave that up to you.
HDTV tuner, um, sure, but I don't receive HDTV feeds...
Tiny case if you like, this is only aesthetics, really.
TV out, does it have one? how good is the quality? overscan? borders?.... Haven't seen anything on that before.
Wireless remote is a must Wireless keyboard/mouse will prove very helpful too.
I'd say win98 is good for that, but you're going to capture and most likely reach >4gb, so maybe 2k is a good idea... Personally, I'd really skip linux/beos. I thought CE was only for PDA's.... XPe and CE can be an idea, but how much does it cost, how limited, how different is the architechture.... lots of questions. Maybe just good 'ole 2K or XP would be just easier?...
Same about VIA chipsets, lots of problems, especially with sb live, raid cards...
You'll also want quiet fans, power supply and the like...
It doesn't look that bad, and if I was going to buy everything new, and on unlimited budget, I'd probably try that...

Anyways, it reminds me a lot of my project hardware wise... http://divx.reallybites.com

[NightWing]

Asus is selling a "prebuilt" computer. it about 2x as tall as a Shuttle box

Has the following built in.

10/100 LAN
Built in video
Built in Sound
Takes a std AMD CPU 1900+/fan. Works greate in it.
Size is around 7w 11d and 12h
Cost at Frys is around 175
Easy to work on! One bolt on back drive cage folds out.
2 5 1/4 drive bays One filled with 52x reader
1 3 1/2 hidden for harddrive.
Includes floppy.
2 SD ram slots

You can also get it with a P4 socketed version also.

When my old video computer died a horrible death from a PS blowup, I switched to this.

All I had to do was
Add 256mb ram.
Drop in a 10gb main drive.
Droped in a 80gb drive for video.
A new DC10+ ( Analog ) Other got fried!
AMD 1900+ with good fan.
Install Win98se and all drivers!
Everthing else is preassembled and ready to go.
Oh did replace the included 52x with a Sony 48x24x48x drive.

Also tried a TV capture card with PowerVCRII both it and the DC10+ work well. The HD rate is insane to/from the 80gb!

If you want to use one of those boards go for the 2nd generation. Faster ram/video and cpu. I think the video has hardware or hardware assisted MPEG1 or 2. Looks much better than the orginal release. Even heard the bios can play a DVD by itself. It does handle a sw Divx better than the fst gen.

PS: There is an optional adapter for LCD/TV out.

[crahak]

XP Embedded eh? I'll save you LOTS of money:

Take Advantage of This Special Offer
Unlock the power of Windows XP Embedded for only $995 US estimated retail price (ERP), which represents a savings of up to 65% off of the Microsoft standard retail price. This offer is valid through March 31, 2003

Wow, 65% savings, run get it while it's time! LOL

NightWing: Well, that's just another case with whatever parts in it again. There's lots of small cases out there. Some for P4's too. I think a XP 1900+ with fans, a 7200 rpm drive and case fans will make some noise though.

Just my 2cents anyways

[vhelp]

I didn't realize I missed the one w/ Firewire ports. This is what I would
want in addition to, TV-OUT.

crahak,
I noticed in one of the pics (see my single pic of this board in question
above) that it had a 4-pin connector. I also noticed that there were other
connectors that looked similar. I'm assuming that since this 4-pin cntr
was yellow, that it ment that the board had also supported S-Video ??
in addition to, RCA connects.

-vhelp
PS: Sorry I don't have the pic to that, but it's on the website.. how's my
...... icon all ?? well.. for now at least. I've tried for another one, but
...... couldn't get color (was in B/W) I'm still searching, but this seems to
...... suit me thus far. - icon added on: 01.05.03.09:52pm

[NightWing]

crahak

It does make some noize. But use it to record shows only and its in another room.

The think I like about it is there enough room to use basically std stuff. The micro boards are low power wonders and have expensive cases and parts to make them work. The 2nd gen group is looking better but think 3th gen will be the winner.

[The village idiot]

To all:


If building a media PC is your only goal, DO NOT buy one of these. There are other conventional ways to do this task! Just go buy a Panasonic HS-2, you will be much happier!

And yes they have video out, as I stated in a previous post! Would I point it out if it didn't?

And as far as XP embedded... Trying it is relatively cheap, as in 120 day use demo version! You can get it and CE from MS for around $40.00 to cover shipping and the cost of the disks!

The Epia M's could be considered as third generation. First was the Shuttle FV-24 (if you followed the history, it would make sense). Then the Epia 5000, and 800. Now Epia M 6000, and 9xxx. I also have the continuation of Shuttle's work, in the form of an SV-50, with P4 2Ghz. And an SV-25 at my parents house. For general purpose computers, they work well. For games, forget it!

Now then, flaninacupboard asked about the epia boards and any problems. Since I have worked with a similar (check the specs) board, I responded. And in the end, mentioned what I am trying to do. If we wanted to do it a different way, we would have. But the intent is to use something, new in the market, to accomplish a goal! And to make a low cost, low noise, low power, as close to a stand alone as possible, media machine. But just like in ejp's thread about his divx player idea, a bunch of people come running in to say we're a bunch of idiots . And why don't you do it this way? Simply put, because this is new. Old I've done, long ago with an ATI AIW rage pro based card. Now as HDTV is coming into my area, I'm going to try something new. And maybe the rest of you people might benefit from my work. But with the idea bashing lately, it is not likely!

If anyone is serious about this topic, using one of the VIA boards, or Shuttle boards, you can PM me. Otherwise don't bother!
EoR

[crahak]

Well, I'm going full ATX myself. The WHOLE thing (along with parts for a mp3 server) will only cost me 125$ TOTAL, so.

I didn't say it didn't have one, I only said I didn't know for sure if it had one, but one thing with TV outs, is they're NOT ALL THE SAME, big time. Some are great, so jus plain suck. Haven't tried it either, so?

XP Embedded for 120 days, wow, you're going to use it for 120 days only?
Never looked into CE, it feels too much of a PDA platform, and it's probably quite limited, haven't bothered looking much into that either for lack of interest. Nothing wrong with "normal" windows anyways imho.

Don't recall anyone calling people idiots in ejp's thread. Sure, the board is small, and you can get small fancy cases, no one ever fought that, he was trying to build a whole project like that with LCD, a programmable remote control and god knows what else for like 100$. He only got told to get his stuff cheap instead because the money he had would probably have covered just the cpu/mobo, if that. If I had 1500$ for this, I'd build a kick ass HTPC with fancy looks like this too, but I don't. Anyways, there is more to it than just hardware and looks too...

It comes down to preferences. I like small PC's like that too, but for some people, it might not be the "best solution", we don't think all the same and like all the same things... You get the idea anyhow People can completely your or mine idea/solutions just because they like something else better... If it works for you

Anyways, I'm doing my project too, I got lots of resources on my website, and I will also release the code for my HTPC/player front end too. Lots of people have knowledge in these things nowadays...

[PlaiBoi]

damn...that epia m 9000 looks pretty good, except for the price.! $206.98 US currency. btw, are there any cases that fit this that accept PCI cards? The only one on that site that fits this doesnt have room to fit a pci card.

[The village idiot]

Yes there are several case, and several vendors in the US. I've seen them, with case and hard drive for around $300. That includes the riser card for 1 or 2 PCI cards.http://www.mini-itx.com/hardware/suppliers.asp Scroll down to the US links.

[flaninacupboard]

wow! lots of replies!
The reason i want a small and quiet machine for this is because it is living under the television where it's convenient, and it has to be girlfriend friendly. persuading her to let me keep a laserdisc player under the telly was enough of a challenge, keeping a big noisy computer there just isn't on the cards.
I'm not buying a case, i'm making one. im using the shell of an ancient Technics midi CD deck. just high enough for a normal PSU and just wide enough for the mobo and DVD burner.
As for the TV out on this board, i thought at first it was atrocious! looked like it was outputting things in 256 colours!! but i got a copy of powerdvd xp 4.0 (which supports the onboard hardware motion compensation) and things look -much- better. Yes it does have S-video support, which is nice. I've seen people using the sigma "X-card" with these boards, hardware mpeg and Divx decoding, complete with S-video and component (RGB) outputs. The windows GUI is perfectly usable over the TV out, but overscan is a problem. the motherboards software only has two overscan option "over" and "under" so either nothing fits or you have borders. Apparently a prgram called TVtool can help with this, i'm yet to try it (ive been concentrating on this capturing issue) after testing the data througput, it's fast enough to record a DV signal (im using a 7200 60gig drive) so the ADVC-50 looks like my best option, and means i'll be getting much better quality than i was with my old capture card anyway (always seemed to pick up interference, even using the S-input) and given the board has TV-out, i don't need that feature from the ADVC-100 (saving me a good 50 pounds)
i'm currently running 98 on the machine, not had any problems so far, but i shall switch to 2K to make dv capture and editing easier, as well as DVD authoring.
anyway, i'll get my hands on an ADVC-50 asap and then find out just how slow this machine is at DVD encoding!

[The village idiot]

My Epia M9000 came in today... NICE! It looks like the HDTV card I have on order should fit the tiny little case that I also bought. At least it should fit if I leave the floppy out, who needs a floppy anyway. The case is one of the Casetronic ones made for the mini ITX boards. Also very nice. Board and case purchased from idot. The myHD card from cinefx, I just hope the card comes in soon. The computer shipped in very promptly, and I recommend idot.com for your USA ITX needs.

A full report when I get the card and the system set up.

[crahak]

Those look good, but expandability is too restrictive, and price wise, it's your call. There are a lot of custom cases that actually look a hell of a lot better, and also, there are those shuttle cases that some people like too nowadays. I don't care much, I went standard ATX

[The village idiot]

Well, just got another email from Cinefx.com, my order is more backed up. If it says the item is instock on the web site, don't you believe it! Looks like I have another week to install the hard drive and load the OS. Damn and I wanted it working before the February ratings period starts next week. Guess I'lll put my bungee based machine together while I wait (the bungee was cheap, and I couldn't resist).

[vcdforme]

flaninacupboard,
your statement about the x-card caught my attention.
Overscan?
I was experimenting with a Homemade Tivo, and my cheapo
Chaintech vid-card GeForce2 MX400 does a surprisingly good job outputting the mpegs to TV, except for the small border around the edge of the picture. I was hoping if I got an x-card it would solve this
problem.
I'm not even sure if we're talking about the same thing, sorry, but my
experience in video terminology is far from professional.
I would consider my little TIVO machine a success if it wasn't for
the unfilled picture.

P.S. I thought I read somewhere that the x-card does not work
with an AVI file. Any truth to this?

Thanks,
vcdforme

[crahak]

Well, everyone building HTPC's (ok, 99% of them or so) are all using ATI radeons for the TV out... No overscan, black borders and wll that. I have a GeForce4 Ti4200 VIVO, and it's just no good at it. (actually, some people have modified Radeons, oscilloscope tuned, without some filters on the board, with componen outs, you name it...) Actually, the Radeon 7200 seems to be one of the best, and it had no fan either (no noise).

[NightWing]

Just for reference there is a company may be making a Mini-ITX board with a Sima MPEG-4 decode intergrated on board but uses a Nation Geode CPU chip and just a pasive heatsink for the cpu. Here is the link:

http://www.mini-itx.com/#story0029

[crahak]

Antec is going to make some nice new cases too. (for HTPCs and such). Around 100-150$ I believe.

[NightWing]

Greate!

[The village idiot]

That board looks alot like this one, doesn't it?

http://www.sigmadesigns.com/products/jasmine.htm

[vhelp]

The village idiot,

CC has a USB floppy drive for $49.00

I've seen them in other stores ie, Stapes, etc. and they go for $79
So, the $49 one looks good. I was thinking of getting the USB one
for my 3rd (standalone internet pc setup) but I decided not to, and
just get a $19 internal one.

I also like the THUMB idea. CC is selling the 128MB for $99, but one
time, they were selling for $79 (because someone misspriced them)
darn!! I should of gotten one anyways..
I like this idea for "short" and quick file transfers, for when I'm
screwing around all three pcs. But, once I finalize my 3rd pc setup,
I may need a quick and dirty way of transfreing larger than 1.44mb
files, and the thumb seems a good idea. I don't want to continue
using a LAN setup, as that seems to give me nothing but headackes,
ie, SLOW BOOT UP on both pcs so far, no matter what I do ot tweak
any of them, and couple that with a software firewall, it's worse.

Anyways, I thought that the USB floppy and the THUMB would come in
handy or give some of you guys some ideas ie, if those boards allow
for a USB bootable drive, if you guys can GIMMY the THUMBand OS
together, you are talking real quite operations (except for the LAN
connects for the divX files)

crahak, maybe you can build on some of these ideas ?? (or not)

I don't know, I'm just shareing my THUMB ideas w/ you all.

Happy tinkering peoples.
-vhelp

[sammie]

Two comments. I have an early Suttle box too. Actually, I've been using it for sometime as a networked MP3 player in my stereo rack. Works really well. I tried one of the popular ummm recent DiVX's last night just to see. Have to say I was impressed. Nary a skip or stutter. I don't know about capture? Never tried it, but I too had problems with older VIA chipset MBs and capture. But it's a cool little box and has been a solid performer in a player roll.

For those looking for a remote control, this sounds good from WinDVD. http://www.intervideo.com/jsp/Product_Profile.jsp?p=WinDVDRemote I'm not sure how tied to the WinDVD program it is. Not that WinDVD is a bad program, but I know a lot of folks want to play DiVX too.

[The village idiot]

vhelp,
The epia M9000 can boot from several USB devices, like USB floppy, USB cd-rom, and it says USB hard drive. Haven't tried it yet, but then again, I only got it this week. I will be messing with it this weekend.