Frustrating poor VCD quality. Is it normal? Please help?

[Hisham]

Hi,
I have the ATI 7500(AIW). I am trying to convert some of my analog video tapes to VCD to play them on my DVD.
I have no problem capturing at whatever format (mpeg1, mpeg2). The problem is when I try to burn (using nero) to VCD. The end product have a much lower quality. Is it normal?

Thanks,

[Mirror_Image]

Nero is great for burning, but is a very sloppy encoder. Encode to VCD spec with TMPGEnc, then burn with Nero.

[Hisham]

Thanks for the reply. However, should I capture in mpeg2 or mpeg1 or even another format?
By the way, ATI allows me to capture directly in VCD? I tried that, however, the quality still very poor when I burn it!!!!!
I must be doing somthing wrnog?

[Nelson37]

Capture in the highest quality you can get, then re-encode that. Guides available for almost anything, Huffy AVI probably best. It does NOT MATTER what ANYONE says if you cannot successfully capture excellent quality in a particular format, try something else. Capture format and final format are not really related, unless you want real-time.

VCD are, IMO, just not very good quality. Consider SVCD.

Also DL some sample clips and see for yourself what is possible with the different formats. And for God's sake do not encode with Nero, its awful, use TMPGenc or CCE.

[The village idiot]

I hope the isn't redundant but try here: http://www.vcdhelp.com/capture

[Hisham]

Thanks for your response.
I will try TMPGenc. Please note that I use nero for burning. ATI captures directly in VCD.
I would like to use SVCD, however, my DVD (Panasonis RV31) doesn't support SVCD.

Thanks,

[Linelle]

Nero is great for burning, but is a very sloppy encoder. Encode to VCD spec with TMPGEnc, then burn with Nero.

This caught my eye. I don't have Nero, but Roxio Easy CD Creator 5.0 Platinum. I recently burned some lousy-looking VCD's. Would this be a similar situation? I'm editing with Premiere 6.0 (should receive 6.5 upgrade in mail any day). If it would be better to go to TMPGEnc between Premiere and Roxio, do I export as AVI or MPEG1 in Premiere? And what kind of file is created in TMPGEnc that then gets burned in Roxio?

[Mirror_Image]

Capturing straight to VCD looks a lot worse than capturing at a higher resolution and bitrate, then letting your encoder encode the captured video to VCD. Sure, it's much, much faster to capture straight to VCD spec, but you'll pay the piper by getting lower quality.

[MaDmiZe]

I just wanted to really stress...That for me in most situations VCD quality is better than VHS...so DO NOT think that your VCD is poor quality because thats just the way they are...If you follow the guides here and ask the right questions people will help and you'll agree VCDs are great.

[paulgab]

Thanks for your response.
I will try TMPGenc. Please note that I use nero for burning. ATI captures directly in VCD.
I would like to use SVCD, however, my DVD (Panasonis RV31) doesn't support SVCD.

Thanks,

If SVCD is not supported, try XVCD. just increase your data rate from the standard 1150kbps to 1600~2500kbps. Test it in a CDRW. Try capturing MPEG2 720x480 or 352x480 at 6000~7000 data rate. Then re-encode it by TMPG.

[Chris X]

I really can't understand why people claim VCD is as good as VHS because it is very far from it. For one thing, VCD video is a very low bit-rate. VHS video on the otherhand, is excellent quality when the Video is recorded, In "RealTime" in SP mode on a 4 head or Higher capable VHS with Auto head Cleaner feature. There is No Macro-blocks in a VHS Video, and VHS support Dolby Surround and Macrovision. Unlike VCD.

[bugster]

I would like to use SVCD, however, my DVD (Panasonis RV31) doesn't support SVCD

Search the forum for the 'VCD Header Trick". Your player can be tricked into playing SVCD movies. I know it works on my RV41

[Spence]

Nero is great for burning, but is a very sloppy encoder. Encode to VCD spec with TMPGEnc, then burn with Nero.

This caught my eye. I don't have Nero, but Roxio Easy CD Creator 5.0 Platinum. I recently burned some lousy-looking VCD's. Would this be a similar situation? I'm editing with Premiere 6.0 (should receive 6.5 upgrade in mail any day). If it would be better to go to TMPGEnc between Premiere and Roxio, do I export as AVI or MPEG1 in Premiere? And what kind of file is created in TMPGEnc that then gets burned in Roxio?

Capture as avi
Encode with tmpgenc to an mpeg
Burn with easy cd creator.

thats what i do and i get great results every time

[Hisham]

Okay, I tried the following using my ATI AIW 7500:
a. Capture as AVI and use TMPGEnc to convert to VCD. The quality is better than letting Nero encode for me.
b. Capture as SVCD and then apply the "header trick" to get my DVD to play the the SVCD. I did that in two ways:
1. Capture as SVCD, however TMPGEnc complains that it doesn't understand the format
2. Capture as AVI. Convert using TMPGEnc to SVCD. Apply the header trick. Then try to burn using nero as VCD. Nero complains that it is not VCD. Does anyone know why nero complains.

Thanks

[IH]

In Nero, turn of the wizard. Choose Video CD and Turn off "Create Standard compliant CD"

[Nelson37]

Nero says its not a VCD because it isn't.

One thing which gives me consistent success is to create an image file with VCDImager and then burn the bin/cue with Nero. That way Nero is not trying to format my disk, its already done correctly.

[southside97]

Hey Hisham,

Here's my thought about capturing with AIW. I also have a AIW Radeon 7500 and by my understanding, you are using ATI MMC to capture directly to either AVI, MPG1, or MPG2 since you said your "ATI allows you to capture directly to VCD". My first attempt was when I wanted to make a VCD by capturing straight to MPEG1 on the fly using MMC 7.7 (the latest version I think) and it produced lousy results. Then I tried changing the settings in MMC using higher resolution (even capture to AVI) to see if the results were better but they weren't. Then I tried a different program, Virtualdub and captured to AVI and encode with TMPEG. I compared results and saw a BIG difference between the two file. From then on, I ONLY use Virtualdub and TMPG to make (S)VCD when capturing from the VCR or the TV Tuner. I never messed with MMC ever again.

[Hisham]

Thanks for the responses.

southside97: How can I use VirtualDub with my ATI?

[vitualis]

I really can't understand why people claim VCD is as good as VHS because it is very far from it. For one thing, VCD video is a very low bit-rate. VHS video on the otherhand, is excellent quality when the Video is recorded, In "RealTime" in SP mode on a 4 head or Higher capable VHS with Auto head Cleaner feature. There is No Macro-blocks in a VHS Video, and VHS support Dolby Surround and Macrovision. Unlike VCD.

You don't understand because you've never made a good VCD??

Making a VCD from a very good source (e.g., a DVD rip) will yield excellent results -- as good as good quality VHS on average.

Sure, VCDs have mpeg compression artifacts, but even the best VHS will have analogue artifacts.

VCDs do not noticable degrade with subsequent viewings. This is not the case with VHS.

VCDs support near CD-quality stereo audio and Dolby Surround. VCD audio is far superior to that of VHS.

VCDs don't support Macrovision and I personally think that this is a good thing!

You can make menus and high resolution stills on a VCD. You obviously cannot do this on VHS.

Regards.

[BV2001]

Here is what I observe
I try this and it produce excellent quality
I am using ATI TV Wonder PCI
using PowerVCR to capture to DV
or DVD NTSC with 720x480 ( take longer to encode to VCD later on )
in other word, the higher resolution capture, the better the quality.
Rule of thumg ( for me )
1. Capture to MPEG2 ( DVD ) or DV
2. Reencode using TMEG
I have try to capture to HUFF AVI codec , and it produce good quality too but with my eyes, I observe that DV or DVD MPEG2 is better.
hope this help.
If you do AIW 7500, using MMC I think is good too
I used MMC 7.6b before to capture to MPEG2 and then encode , it is very good but it doesn't let me go past the default resolution 352x240
hope this help

[Chris X]

I really can't understand why people claim VCD is as good as VHS because it is very far from it. For one thing, VCD video is a very low bit-rate. VHS video on the otherhand, is excellent quality when the Video is recorded, In "RealTime" in SP mode on a 4 head or Higher capable VHS with Auto head Cleaner feature. There is No Macro-blocks in a VHS Video, and VHS support Dolby Surround and Macrovision. Unlike VCD.

You don't understand because you've never made a good VCD??

Making a VCD from a very good source (e.g., a DVD rip) will yield excellent results -- as good as good quality VHS on average.

Sure, VCDs have mpeg compression artifacts, but even the best VHS will have analogue artifacts.

VCDs do not noticable degrade with subsequent viewings. This is not the case with VHS.

VCDs support near CD-quality stereo audio and Dolby Surround. VCD audio is far superior to that of VHS.

VCDs don't support Macrovision and I personally think that this is a good thing!

You can make menus and high resolution stills on a VCD. You obviously cannot do this on VHS.

Regards.

Your wrong. I am a Video Editor and have been making professional video cds for the last 2 years. I use the latest TMPG using the standard VCD template and most of my encodes are done from Direct DVD Video sources. I use the highest quality options including mostion estimation search, and I de-interlace my videos. I encode using floating point DCT and output the video format in YCBcR as oposed to the lesser quality CCIR601. This is about the highest quality that can come out of TMPGenc using the VCD specification. Don't accuse me of something unless you know what your talking about.

VCDS DO NOT support Dolby Surround. They support Stereo, join-stereo, and dual channel ONLY!!!
VHS Do support Dolby Surround. IF VCD support Dolby Surround TMPG would give that audio option, and it doesn't.

You are right about is the fact that VHS Video degrades and VCD quality does not, unless the VCD is scratched and that menus can be made.

Still There are some blocks left over do to the fact that the bitrate is still not enough to produce a perfectly blockless picture even with the highest quality encodes, or atleast with the quality that TMPGenc is capable of at its standard VCD Template.

No I do not own a Hardware Encoder, but I don't they they are necessary unless one plans to encode to VCD in real time, and that is if ones processor is not fast enough to do it.

I have watched production stamped VCDs and compaired them to my own, and mine are about the same quality, and some I have made are actually better. Both have some blockness.

Chris

[vitualis]

I find it hard to understand why someone who claims to be a "video editor" and has made "professional VCDs" for the last two years would claim:

VCDS DO NOT support Dolby Surround. They support Stereo, join-stereo, and dual channel ONLY!!!
VHS Do support Dolby Surround. IF VCD support Dolby Surround TMPG would give that audio option, and it doesn't.

It seems obvious to me that you simply haven't got a clue to what Dolby Surround is. Indeed, the ridiculousness of this incongruity is rather funny... Have you been telling your clients that you can't put Dolby Surround audio onto a VCD too?

Dolby Surround audio can be placed into ANY stereo sound source including FM radio, stereo TV broadcasts, stereo VHS, stereo audio CD and yes, VCDs.

"Stereo", "Joint Stereo" and "Dual Channel" refer to the MPEG audio encoding mode of the stereo and has absolutely nothing to do with the presence or absence of Dolby Surround encoding. If your knowledge of VCDs is based purely on TMPGEnc, you have some serious problems.

Time for you to read up on some basic video and audio technology my friend: http://www.dolby.com

Regards.

[JimJohnD]

I have to agree with vitualis on this one. I've been making VCDs WITH Dolby Surround from TV captures for over two years, heck I've mixed my OWN surround home videos. Depending on the complexity of the video in frame a VCD, or more to the point, my VCDs look good enough that I've been in no hurry to go to DVD. Yes, SVCDs look even better and a good XSVCD can rival DVD quality, in my opinion. But my VCDs have played in everything I've put them in, and thats what is a priority for me.

[Chris X]

Alright, yes, Iv been up all night!!

2 channel Dolby Surround yes they do support. 5.1 (which I was referring to, no they don't)

I don't have clients, I do this stuff for friends, and as a personal hobby. However, I am thinking about venturing into the profession after I get much more experience, in other subjects, besides VCD creation. TMPGenc has always worked fine for me and if you think I have problems because that is the only encoder I currently use, which happens to be the best MPEG 1 Encoder out there, and free BTW, then it appears to me your just trolling, and that your the one with the problems.

My original point was that VHS Video is better quality then VCD even when encoded at best quality, with the exception of quality degration that occurs on VHS Media. The Media says that vcd is better. I'm not refering to degration that occurs after 5 years. If you have a crappy VCR and never clean the heads, then yes the Video will degrade even quicker.

However, that is just VCD. I think SVCD looks about as good, if not better then a professional done Film on SVHS Media, but less then DVD.

Chris

[Hisham]

Thanks for all the responses.

I currently have three problems:
1. If I capture in DVD or SVCD using my ATI 7500 AIW, TMPGEnc complains that the format is incorrect??????????????
2. If I capture as AVI (non compressed - 7 min=22GB HDspace), using TMPGEnc I can get to SVCD. Then I apply the header trick and burn using Nero. However, I still would have to run my DVD (Panasonic RV31) faster to get a normal picture.
3. Someone recommended that I should Virtualdub. I downloaded the software, however, I am not clear how to capture.
Your help with any of the above is appreciated.

Thanks,

[oldfart13]

What are you using to cap with? I have a 7500 as well and cap at 7 MB/s Mpeg-2 or higher which I use as a master for final conversion using TMPGEnc to SVCD standard. I'd use Virtual Dub but my system won't allow it and VDub can't use the VFW to WDM wrapper (I've tried loading it numerous times). Pic quality is very good if I use a good source. VHS is a low quality source but in SVCD, the pic looks at least as good as my source tapes. If I use satellite TV as the source, it looks even better. I'm capping with MMC 7.6 with Stinky's Registry Tweaker to get rid of Macrovision and let me set a 480*480 Mpeg-2 template. TMPGEnc has a custom template I use to make CQ SVCDs. Purists don't like that I don't use AVI's but for my needs MMC is just fine. I just wish that VDub and similar programs could be rewritten to allow Mpeg-2 as well as AVI as it's filters are much better than those in TMPGEnc or else the creator of TMPGEnc could allow import of VDub filters. So far, neither of those options has happened.

[southside97]

OK, to capture with Virtualdub, download and install virtualdub first.
Then download this file and install.
http://shopgeo.virtualave.net/wrapper.zip

Now you need to decide which video compression codecs you need (available for download in the left side tool bar). I recommend the following two:
1. PICVideo MJPEG Codec (demo) i can capture about 2 hours on 10gig hard drive compressed with quality 18.
2. Huffyuv (freeware) but you will ned loooots of hard drive space at least 20gigs or more for at least 30min to 100min of capture since it captures in uncompress format

Next step is to follow this guide to setup Virtualdub..
http://www.vcdhelp.com/forum/userguides/89899.php
Make sure you go through change your settings in each of these items..
In capture mode: Audio settings, Video/Compression, Capture/Settings, Capture/Capture Drives (<--- this is important setting to bypass th 4gb avi limit), and make sure enable multisegment capture is enabled.

Now, after you setup virtualdub, you can start capturing from either Tv tuner, or your A/V Inputs on your card.
1. In virtualdub, make sure you're in capture mode by going to file/capture avi.
2. Then goto video/source. A menu will pop up and you can select either Video Tuner, Video Composite, or S-Video. (depending on which cables you have connected to your card)
3. Then goto capture/capture video or F6 for shortcut.
4. After you capture, just frameserve to tmpeg or whatever.

This may seem alot to do but it's not.... First you need to get to know how to use virtualdub, after awhile you can do good captures... I might missed something so if you get into trouble, just come back here...

[crahak]

I don't mean to insult anyone here (but I know I will, oh well). I have yet to see a VCD that is near VHS quality. SVCD? ok. You can try to blame/insult me or my skills, I'm not gonna loose any sleep over it. I have seen lots, from many sources, and I'd take VHS over them anytime. You guys can talk about more bits per pixel or anything you want, it just doesn't, nor will ever look better. If you want menus? Sure, but I'd rather buy my DVD's without menus myself (Although that's a personnal thing). Hope I didn't get anyone mad. Good luck in your quest anyways.

[BV2001]

Hisham,
this is what I do
yes, ATI won't except the capture from ATI MMC with DVD (mpeg2)
just capture it, then use AVI2DVD extract that file...
it will extract the video to dv file and another file is mpa ( sound )
then go to TMEG ... for video select the dv file , for the sound select the mpa wave
you will see a big improvement by this method than capture striaght to VCD
hope this help

[wulf109]

My two Cents,sure if try to put two hours on an VCD/SVCD the quality will be appalling,much worse the VHS. However a VCD/SVD made at 2500 average,4000 maximum is going to be vastly sharper then even SVHS. I've used superbeta,vhs,and svhs and a well made VCD/SVCD is always going to look better. I've been making SVD on 99min CDR's which I think reach the elusive "near DVD quality". Yes video tape can store more time but the quality and longevity cannot eqaul a well made VCD/SVCD.
Whether you call it an XVCD or XSVCD I think given the same encodeing parameters no one could tell the XVCD from the XSVCD.