VCD or SVCD?

[silliejo]

i'm gonna start ripping movies from dvd's but i don't know what to convert them to...should i choose VCD or SVCD?what's the difference?is there like a webpage in this site that shows me the difference?..thanks in advance

[Mirror_Image]

Those "what is" links on the upper left might be a good place to start.

[markadamwood]

I would always recommend SVCD over VCD, if SVCD is done properly ie VBR multipass at the highest quality the results are very close to DVD.

SVCD is a far superior resolution, however I would recommend not going over 50mins per cd.

I personally use Smart Ripper, DVD2AVI,TMPGENC(To cut as well as encode),
MPG2CUEBIN & CDRWIN. But there are many ways to do so.

I would also recomend SVCD if your player supports it........the quality is excellent.

There are samples on this page somewhere, look left.

Cheers

[SatStorm]

VCD has 4 benefits over SVCD:
1. Stores 74 min on a 650MB CD-R. For quality SVCDs you are limited about 35min with the suggested settings.
2. The tools for the making of a VCD are free and also well done. For SVCD nothing now is free and all the tools have bugs or open issues.
3. VCD is direct compatible with DVD. SVCDs use a resolution which is not direct compatible. So, a VCD can live "as is" in a DVD-R disc, while a SVCD stays only on CD based media "as is".
4. VCD is by far more compatible SVCD, because it is based to mpeg 1 which now is a free codec. To playback and encode to SVCD (which is based to mpeg 2) you have to pay.

From the other hand, SVCD has one huge benefit over VCD:
The quality is by far better. The quality of VCD is near VHS (slighty less) while SVCD is near Laserdisc.

There is also CVD, which is like SVCD but with a less minus: It uses a resolution which is direct compatible with DVD-R media. That make it a better overall choice for many users (included me). You lose some sharpness if you choose this alternative, but for most people is unnoticable.

Many Asian brand DVD players will play just about any format on a CD or DVD. And here in Europe there are many brands to choose from, for example I have a Mustek V560.

[guitar_george_skank]

I personally prefer to use XVCD for all my rips. Because the resolution is smaller (VHS size) I feel the "quality" is better (i always use 2 pass VBR for my XVCD's) when using the same bitrate as a SVCD. For example:

I would encode a 2 hour movie onto 2 80min CD's (XVCD) using 2 pass VBR at 1581Kb/sec. This "very good" quality when played on my 25" TV. If however I encode the movie as SVCD (again on 2 80min CD's) at the same rate, the film looks worse because of the higher resolution. I know that quality is subjective, some people prefer sharper (but blockier) pictures etc. but I feel that on a normal sized TV (20" - 35"), XVCD is the way to go.
I always try to stay higher than 1500Kb/sec to get decent results and when I did Shallow Hal at 1710Kb/sec, the quality was excellent (IMHO).

PS. I have tried my XVCD's on a friends rear projector TV (45") and they still look good although you can start to see some slight blockyness but projector TV's don't seem to handledigital signals that well anyway.

[SatStorm]

well, I am a fun of -x- myself. I prefer using xSVCD like sefy's SxVCD than VCDs or SVCDs. I also like using CVDs for quality encodings. But the -x- way isn't acceptable for many users, so if we have to talk for standards, then there are 4 alternatives only: VCD, CVD, SVCD and DVD.
The -X- way is sweet but is -X-.

[guitar_george_skank]

I agree. The X way is great if your player supports it. One thing is bothering me though, maybe you guys can help. If I encode at 1150Kb/sec for VCD at NTSC resolution (352 x 240) do I have to encode at 3194Kb/sec for SVCD to achieve the same quality? By quality I mean the bitrate in ratio to the resolution. VCD uses 36% (approx.) of the pixels that SVCD uses. Simple maths shows the equivalent rates. However, we are talking about MPEG1 (VCD) and MPEG2 (SVCD) and so the compression may be different. If I'm talking nonsense (again) please tell me!

[snowmoon]

Personally SVCD/CVD all the way.

I only use CVD for the exception not the rule.

1) SVCD's can easly hold 40-50 minutes/disk if encoded properly, for some materal I have no problem putting a full 60 minutes on a 80 minute disk.
2) Except the encoder the rest of the toolset can bo 100% free and 99% bug free
3) Mpeg-2 can actually handle interlaced materal properly ( not a big deal for DVD ripping, but for TV/video it's more important ).
4) It's a standard

I personally dislike the bastardized templates ( it's an opinion, don't kill me ). I have found that any picture quality improvement they can do, can usually be done in a 100% standard compliant way too.

[Macros746]

It really depends entirely on what you are wanting to do and how important quality issues are to you. Here is the run down:

1. VCD-Can look REALLY GOOD with just the standard NTSCfilm template in TMPGenc which is an excellent, if slightly slow, encoder. VCD works with FAR more DVD players than SVCD or even CVD and is an excepted 'standard.' The best combo IMHO for this is Smartripper->DVD2AVI->TMPGenc

2. SVCD-In terms of using CCE in DVD2SVCD it is certainly the easiest and most hands off solution. This can look absolutely AMAZING at the proper bitrate. The problem comes in longer movies. If you are going over 50 minutes per disc your quality will suffer greatly in a way that VCD WON'T. I have yet to find a VCD that won't fit on two CDs. CCE does beautiful but it isn't free....in fact it is VERY pricey...unless you can find it on your own...wink.

3. CVD-In my home this is the up and comer. It uses MPEG2 compression like SVCD and can have a much higher bit rate than VCD but at a lower resolution which means, to my eyes, that it tends to look better than either of the other two options on a two disc per movie scale. This is a 'standard' of sorts and happens to be a compatible standard for DVD ...so in the future if you want to burn your collection to DVD it won't be a big headache for you. This is MORE compatible in stand alone players than SVCD.

That is my run down. As I said, having been a long time VCD fan I have recently started letting DVD2SVCD make my CVDs for me. It is just too easy...I set it up, hit encode and go to sleep...and the quality really is exceptional. I'd do an example of each if I were you and make your decision from there.

hope this helped

Macros746

[banjazzer]

4. VCD is by far more compatible SVCD, because it is based to mpeg 1 which now is a free codec. To playback and encode to SVCD (which is based to mpeg 2) you have to pay.

That's not quite correct. For a player to play VCD the manufacturer has to pay Philips a license fee. As of April this year Philips have tightened up on the licensing arrangements, and rather than pay Philips, some manufacturers have disabled VCD capability. This particularly affects low-cost players, which in the past seemed to be the most capable of playing different formats. Apex and Pacific are two manufacturers whose players, manufactured after April this year, will not play VCD. I'm sure there are quite a few others! Apex apparenty regard VCD as an unimportant format, which is why they produce players capable of playing SVCD (which also requires a licensing fee) but which will not play VCD.

[SatStorm]

Yes, the manufactures have to pay for VCD.
Also, we pay for mpeg 1 when we buy windows.
But you understand how I mean "free", right?
There are many freeware encoders/author programs/players etc for MPEG 1 (vcd), but there are no quality freeware encoders/author programs/players for mpeg 2. There are some projects floating the internet, but when they became desent, they stop being freeware.
The same happen with TMPGenc, after version 12a...
Even philips gives for free the package for VCD creation to users. Companies still have to pay for it you know!
COmmersial use and private use is 2 different things!

About DVD standalones not support VCDs but support SVCDs.
Just encode your files to VCD and then demux and remux them as SVCDs. Most of the times, this cheap trick works.
You see, for DVD standalones, mpeg 1 is simple a null progressive mpeg 2. So no problem here.

I do some generall tests those days. One of them is to see how compatible is a mpeg 1 @ 352 X 576 when you remuxx it as SVCD (so you create CVD) and burn it with Nemo. All my tests was successfull till now and all standalones play the disc as CVD!. The picture looks like a progressive CVD and the mpeg 1 encoding is by far faster mpeg 2. This cheap trick it might be very usefull for progressive DVDs to progressiev CVDs/SVCDs! This idea is pretty old, many use it, but I never test it extendenly to see how compatible is those -how to call them- xsVCDs ?

[TTG]

I have to admit, i ripped using smart ripper, then used DVDX to encode, this was great, shame i need 3cd's but i like quality, the only problem was my standalone "pacific 1002 " it didnt like these particular svcd's, when i pressed FF or RW or even stopped and then play the audio sync would be at least 6 secs out, but with the header trick alls well again...

[ZAP!!]

VCDs work just fine for me. I stick to the VCD 2.0 format and most everything can play them. My Pioneer has problems with VBR where the minimum bitrate is under 900 kbs, my VCD player can only play VCD 2.0 and nothing else, and my Lasonic DVD player needs standard VCD 2.0 also.

[adam]

2) Except the encoder the rest of the toolset can bo 100% free and 99% bug free

Well don't forget bbmpeg. It can encode in mpeg2 and its completely free. The quality is actually pretty good too, but of course its probably the slowest encoder around but hey, its free.

[SatStorm]

A, yeah... BBmpeg....
Now I use it only for muxing, but yes it is a freeware encoder. I missed that

[markc32]

the mpeg2 quality is very poor in bbmpeg and it is way too slow unless u have an a p4 liquid cooled o/c to 3.6 GHz.....

If u can afford that - better paying for cce!

[SatStorm]

In a year with an athlon xp 4000+ BBmpeg gonna be fast wanted or not!
Also, TMPGenc gonna be twice realtime and CCE 4X realtime! :P

Oh baby, I can't wait....
Go to sleep now.......

[poopyhead]

VCD has 4 benefits over SVCD:
1. Stores 74 min on a 650MB CD-R. For quality SVCDs you are limited about 35min with the suggested settings.

actually, with an avg. bitrate of 2200....a disc can store upto 45-46 min of video.

2. The tools for the making of a VCD are free and also well done. For SVCD nothing now is free and all the tools have bugs or open issues.

many of the "tools' used for VCD is exactly the same as SVCD. rippers are the same (smartripper, dvddecryptor), frameservers are the same (vdub, dvd2avi, flask), encoders are the same (cce, tmpgenc)...so if a "tool" has a bug in it, it would effect both VCD and SVCD. granted MPEG2 in tmpgenc is a trial version, but there are easy ways around that.

[poopyhead]

This "very good" quality when played on my 25" TV.

how does your rip look on your computer? lotta rips look "good" on TV, but don't even come close on the computer.

[poopyhead]

1. VCD-Can look REALLY GOOD with just the standard NTSCfilm template in TMPGenc which is an excellent, if slightly slow, encoder.

how can a VCD look good if it's resolution and bitrate are fixed (to be standard)?...it even uses the outdated CBR.

[vitualis]

"Good" is obviously a subjective term.

It is fair to say that a well made VCD will look about as good as new VHS. To my eyes, this is quite agreeable. Sure, it doesn't look as good as DVD but if I wanted the DVD, I would have simply bought it/watched it instead.

VCDs are still generally easier to make than SVCDs and the compatibility with stand-alone hardware is higher.

In terms of NTSC-FILM VCDs, they do look quite a bit better because the effective bitrate is 25% higher when compared to standard NTSC or PAL discs.

Regards.

[ZAP!!]

SVCD seems to be a good choice if you want higher quality audio and video. A lot of the VCDs I've seen and made have even looked comparable to VHS and most DVD players will play them.

Hmmmm...

Quality or compatibility?

[Annakins]

I was just wondering.... Why encode to VCD or SVCD when you get excellent quality with .avi files and can fir a 90min film on 1 CD? Or is it just the matter of with what player to watch them?

A.

[SatStorm]

Because we want to watch them on our DVD standalones and not on our PCs?

[dhany]

Sorry that's make me confuse even more
what should i choose? i know that vcd have limited quality and svcd has better....
but is svcd not compatible with lots of standalone? what's your experience on this?
also... if i have done a svcd, can it be transfered back to dvd or perhaps alter it to vcd? here in my country, the most popular is vcd, but i have checked that almost vcd and dvd standalone here compatible with svcd, or we can use power dvd when we use a computer (is it correct?)...
and how about cvd regarding the compability.....

[themamboman]

VCD has 4 benefits over SVCD:
1. Stores 74 min on a 650MB CD-R. For quality SVCDs you are limited about 35min with the suggested settings.

Hmm... 42 minutes is what I've been able to get on 80min CDRs.

2. The tools for the making of a VCD are free and also well done. For SVCD nothing now is free and all the tools have bugs or open issues.

Not quite right. For encoding, bbmpeg2 is free and TMPGEnc is shareware (free for 30 days or until the next demo comes out). For authoring, VCDImager handles SVCDs and has multiple front ends like VCDEasy, TSCV and others, which create cue/bin which can be burned by several programs like CDRWin (free 1x version), fireburner (shareware, 30 days), Nero (commercial) and others.

4. VCD is by far more compatible SVCD, because it is based to mpeg 1 which now is a free codec. To playback and encode to SVCD (which is based to mpeg 2) you have to pay.

Not so. Elecard has a free player/codec available for download.

[SatStorm]

@ themamboman
- Hmm... 42 minutes is what I've been able to get on 80min CDRs.
Yes, also I managed to hold 90 min on a 80min CD-Rs. So what, you low the bitrate and you can fit whatever you want. The official, if we can say that, is what a 74min/650MB CD-R can hold, with CBR 2520 kb/s video bitrate and 224 audio. That way, you are about 35 - 40 mn per CD, close enough yours 42 min...

- Not quite right. For encoding, bbmpeg2 is free and TMPGEnc is shareware (free for 30 days or until the next demo comes out).

Yes, bbmpeg is free. Already mention that before. It is not the best choice for quality encodings
A shareware is not a freeware. Don't mess up apples with oranges!

- For authoring, VCDImager handles SVCDs and has multiple front ends like VCDEasy, TSCV and others, which create cue/bin which can be burned by several programs like CDRWin (free 1x version), fireburner (shareware, 30 days), Nero (commercial) and others.

Sure, but again, there is a difference between freeware and shareware.
Authoring can also be done manual, you don't need an authoring program to do it. It is hard but possible!

The main problem is the encoding part and a freeware solution is only one: BBmpeg. A desent in quality and rather slow mpeg 2 encoder. All other solutions are shareware at best!

Now start counting the VCD freeware solutions....

- Not so. Elecard has a free player/codec available for download.
Is is also shareware and puts a watermark on the screen. It has many bugs (lipsync issues mostly). Finally, TMPGenc (another shareware solution) don't support it.

So, all those you mention, with the exceptation of the authoring part and bbmpeg, are semi-solutions to the facts I posted!


@dhany: Start reading guides, forums, etc. And start experement yourself. Don't wait someone show you with a simply post the correct way.

[themamboman]

The official, if we can say that, is what a 74min/650MB CD-R can hold, with CBR 2520 kb/s video bitrate and 224 audio. That way, you are about 35 - 40 mn per CD, close enough yours 42 min...

Does anyone actually use 224 audio for SVCD? I'd daresay that in practice, no one actually maxes out video at 2520 CBR and 224 audio. The 42 minutes on an 80min CDR with 128kbs audio would leave an average bitrate of around 2450 (if VBR, then you could put the max up all the way and the low end a bit below this...any multipass encoder would give good results).

A shareware is not a freeware. Don't mess up apples with oranges!

So far, you could stick with TMPGenc shareware and still not have to pay, since he's been good about getting new versions out before the time limit is up.

Sure, but again, there is a difference between freeware and shareware. Authoring can also be done manual, you don't need an authoring program to do it. It is hard but possible!

VCDImager and every frontend I've seen are easy and freeware. CDRWin in 1x mode is free for use and CDRDAO is totally free. Where's the shareware there?

Elecard has a free player/codec available for download.
s also shareware and puts a watermark on the screen. It has many bugs (lipsync issues mostly). Finally, TMPGenc (another shareware solution) don't support it.

No lipsync issues in the latest versions. It never times out for me. Why would TMPGenc have to support a playback codec? Outputting mpeg2 with tmpgenc doesn't need any playback codec. Taking an mpeg2 as input may because of directshow, but in this case, you could just run the mpeg2 file through dvd2avi to create a symbolic d2v file and then tmpgenc could take it in through its vfapi interface.

Look, I liked VCD when it came out. It's a good archiving format. I'm not knocking it or the available tools. I was just pointing out that the limitations on SVCD tools just aren't there anymore.

It used to be that you either used I-Author (and paid $1000), or learned the complicated Phillips toolkit (and paid $200+), or you relied on questionable software sources... Now, you can pick up freeware and/or shareware programs and pay little or nothing (if you aren't one to register shareware) and get much higher quality videos than VCD's give.

So, here are some sample setups:

Option 1 (freeware):
- Encode with bbmpeg
- author with VCDImager and a frontend
- burn with CDRDAO (part of some vcdimager frontends)

Option 2 (freeware):
- cap with hardware mpeg2 board (my option)
- author with VCDImager and a frontend
- burn with CDRDAO

Option 3 (shareware/freeware):
- encode with TMPGenc
- author with VCDImager and a frontend
- burn with CDRDAO or fireburner

Any number of combinations come up. These are cheap and/or free. And you get SVCD quality.