Need Some Advice...Panasonic DVD-Ram/R or Pioneer DVR-104?

[IremainAMisterE]

O-K, I haven't decided which burner to get yet? I've been burning (s)vcd's for a lil while now on cd-r's, but im so tired of the space constraints.
Im planning on buying either DVD burner i listed in the topic. I know that they're not the "best", but i refuse to spend $300-400 on a burner. These drives seem to be at a great price. The Panasonic is around $275 and the Pioneer is around $250.

Im just curious if anyone owns either one of these burners and could list the pros and cons for me? Im basically just buying a dvd burner to make back-ups of my dvd movies and probably some good svcd conversions.

Any help would be greatly appreciated!

[BJ_M]

Pioneer DVR-104 if you want the most compatability ..

see http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/Pioneer/CDA/Common/ArticleReviewsDetails/0,2651,92097,00.html

[nemethmik]

I have both of them and I like both of them:
(1) Panasonic LF-D311
Pro: DVD-RAM is like a harddisk, built in support in XP, very reliable, very easy to use.
Cons: no CD burning; cannot read DVD-RW
(2) Pioneer DVR-104
Pros: CD burning; most DVD players can read DVD-RW
Cons: cannot read DVD-RAM; DVD-RW is not as convenient as DVD-RAM

[IremainAMisterE]

Wow! That was some deep info BJ_M
Im not even sure i understand it all to tell ya the truth, but it's all good. I appreciate the info.

And i should've been a little more specific about the Panasonic drive. It's the Panasonic DVD-Ram/R model: LF-D321U
Here's a little excerpt from COMPUSA about this drive:

"Whatever it is, chances are the Panasonic LF-D321U will satisfy it. That’s because it burns DVDs using only DVD Forum approved formats like DVD-RAM and DVD-R.

Only DVD Forum approved formats ensure information security and maximum compatibility between DVD players. On the Read side, it’s just as flexible, because it reads virtually every DVD and CD format.

So you get extreme compatibility with extreme storage capacity up to 9.4 GB per disk! It’s perfect for Video, Data and Imaging applications.

Also included is a set of powerful software titles that gives you the ability to play, capture, edit and burn your Video files, as well as back-up your hard drive.

So if you’re looking for the hottest DVD Drive that gives you the power to burn and more, check out the Panasonic LF-D321U today. "
-----------------------------------------------------------
I wrote what they said, because im not quite sure what you meant by "it doesn't do cd burning"? I have 2 standalone dvd players. One is a Toshiba SD2200 and the other is a Magnavox MDV450. I've looked up compatibility with both and both work fine with DVD-R disks.

Like i said though...I basically just want to know which one is better for the buck? I just wanna back up my DVD movies and burn some SVCD's and be able to play them on my standalone DVD players.

[BJ_M]

that Panasonic DVD-Ram/R model: LF-D321U i wasnt aware of .. sounds like best of both worlds ... dvd-r for compatability and dvd-ram for speed and such ... but what kind of disks does it use ? (dvd-ram disks cost more i believe)

[Eug]

The LF-D321 is pretty much the same thing as the LF-D311 (just as the Pioneer A04 is pretty much the same as the 104).

When I was looking I was also deciding between the Panasonic DVD-RAM/-R and Pioneer DVD-RW/-R.

In the end I decided on the Panasonic (LF-D311) because I wanted the ultra-reliable data support, and it turns out my DVD player plays DVD-RAM anyway, so I can use DVD-RAM for testing my authored DVDs if I want (although I usually don't bother anymore). Plus I didn't need the extra CD burning capability of the Pioneer, because I already owned a 24X burner.

Panasonic LF-D311/321:
Pros: DVD-RAM: Drag and drop data support with FAT32 in Windows XP, with all writes being verified. Also works in Mac OS X.2 with HFS+ and FAT32. (I wouldn't trust my data to DVD-RW packet writing.)
Very fast DVD ripping speed (about 3X the speed as the Pioneer).
Cons: 1X DVD-R burning only (2X on the Pioneer). No CD burning support.

that Panasonic DVD-Ram/R model: LF-D321U i wasnt aware of .. sounds like best of both worlds ... dvd-r for compatability and dvd-ram for speed and such ... but what kind of disks does it use ? (dvd-ram disks cost more i believe)

I just ordered some Optodisc DVD-RAM double-sided 9.4 GB discs in a removable cartridge. They cost US$8 each. Experience online is that they are very reliable. (Optodisc DVD-RAM is Panasonic approved. Their DVD-R isn't approved by anyone however, and not surprisingly apparently doesn't do so well.) I have been using TDK 9.4 GB DVD-RAM up to now for important data backup. The TDKs cost me $12.50, although since then I haven't found them so cheap.

Gotta love it. A single double-sided disc holds most of my important PC data, and another single disc holds most of my important Mac data. (I have secondary backups on an external hard drive.)

I wrote what they said, because im not quite sure what you meant by "it doesn't do cd burning"? I have 2 standalone dvd players. One is a Toshiba SD2200 and the other is a Magnavox MDV450. I've looked up compatibility with both and both work fine with DVD-R disks.

Like i said though...I basically just want to know which one is better for the buck? I just wanna back up my DVD movies and burn some SVCD's and be able to play them on my standalone DVD players.

The Panasonic does not burn CD. Thus no SVCD burning support either. You either need the Pioneer (12X CD-R) or else you need to spend another $50 to buy a 32X burner.

[sonoma]

I am in the same boat. I have a Yam CRW2100 so I don't need cdr capabilities. I also use a LF-D201 at work, so I know I love DVD-RAM.
MY only concern is the 321/311 does not come in SCSI anymore like the 201 I have. All my cd/dvd devices are SCSI and was wishing to stay that way.
Does anybody know if they will be releasing a SCSI version?
Although it looks like I will be choosing a 321 for now.
My home dvd is a pioneer 440, I will have to see of it plays dvd-ram. Didn't think it did, so never tried it. Thanks for the info. That would be a big plus in my book.

[BJ_M]

it seems as if its harder to find scsi stuff .... even plextor doesnt seem to be doing much in the way of updating thier scsi burners and as far as i'm concerned scsi plextors are the best for reliability in a cd-r ...

as for dvd burners -- other than the pioneer authoring unit , is there even a scsi dvd burner?

[sonoma]

I see AVLogic sells the d311 (oem 321) with cdr media, dvd-ram media, neo software, cables, and shipping for $242

Looks like a deal to me.

[Eug]

it seems as if its harder to find scsi stuff .... even plextor doesnt seem to be doing much in the way of updating thier scsi burners and as far as i'm concerned scsi plextors are the best for reliability in a cd-r ...

as for dvd burners -- other than the pioneer authoring unit , is there even a scsi dvd burner?

Hmmm... Considering the market is so cut throat for these I doubt it makes sense for them to go SCSI for the general consumer. Anyways, I've never owned a SCSI burner of any sort and I've not had significant problems, even pre-burnproof days.

Plus, IDE allows one to use Firewire easily since all the inexpensive Firewire enclosures use an IDE->Firewire bridge. No SCSI IDs to worry about or termination, etc. And when was the last time you saw a SCSI laptop? Firewire is becoming standard for the multimedia-oriented laptops. I share my LF-D311 via Firewire with my Windows XP desktop and my Apple iBook.

I see AVLogic sells the d311 (oem 321) with cdr media, dvd-ram media, neo software, cables, and shipping for $242

Looks like a deal to me.

Sounds like a deal to me too. I didn't find much use for the neoDVD software though, and you'll still need to get Nero, if you don't already have it.

[BJ_M]

Hmmm... Considering the market is so cut throat for these I doubt it makes sense for them to go SCSI for the general consumer. Anyways, I've never owned a SCSI burner of any sort and I've not had significant problems, even pre-burnproof days.

Plus, IDE allows one to use Firewire easily since all the inexpensive Firewire enclosures use an IDE->Firewire bridge. No SCSI IDs to worry about or termination, etc. And when was the last time you saw a SCSI laptop? Firewire is becoming standard for the multimedia-oriented laptops. I share my LF-D311 via Firewire with my Windows XP desktop and my Apple iBook.

yes -- firewire is the way really .. this is true ... all my dvd burners are via firewire ... all cd burners though and cd players are scsi though just due to the fact i use only scsi drives anyway forthe most part..

i do accually also have a laptop with a scsi card though ..

[Xesdeeni]

If you are making video DVDs, I suspect that you will want RW DVDs that you can author, burn, and test, without creating lots of coasters until you get things the way you want them. I've burned 30 or so RWs (2 actual DVDs), and just burned my first R this morning, once I finally was satisfied with the quality of my authored DVD.

I'd suggest a DVD-R/RW or DVD+R/RW for this.

Xesdeeni

[incognito]

dvd-ram is an incredibly convenient format for data.
it's not exactly fast, and not very compatible,
but the fact that it acts like a hard drive makes it
convenient.

Also, the discs are mongo big.

DVD-RAM discs are sold in cartriges. The older
(panasonic brand) are able to be removed from the
cartriges and played in some (newer toshiba is actually
the only kind I know) dvd-rom drives. The newer
DVD-RAMs that I have (fuji brand, double-sided) are
not able to be removed from their casing, and thus
can't be read by any dvd-rom drive (VERY annoying)
Oh, one more thing, once you take the disc out of it's
cartrige, when you put it back the DVD-RAM drive
will write the disc in a different mode
(compatibility mode? verify mode? I forget...)
that is MUCH slower. Also, while windows xp
supports reading dvd-ram, it does not natively support
reading discs that have been written in this different mode.

My panasonic lf-d102 can be tricked into writing the discs
normally with a piece of scotch tape.

I have never tried to author a dvd-ram like a dvd-r
and try to play it in my toshiba dvd-rom drive,
but you probably could do that.

I have never been able to get win2k to recognize dvd-ram
discs using the toshiba dvd-rom, and if anyone has any tips
on the subject, I'd be happy to listen. I am tired of booting
into xp to copy data files.

[Eug]

If you are making video DVDs, I suspect that you will want RW DVDs that you can author, burn, and test, without creating lots of coasters until you get things the way you want them. I've burned 30 or so RWs (2 actual DVDs), and just burned my first R this morning, once I finally was satisfied with the quality of my authored DVD.

??? I just make disk images and test the image on my computer. If I don't like it then I re-edit the thing and repeat the process. This is much faster than burning a DVD-RAM or DVD-RW disc for each test. For the final product, you may wish to burn a test DVD-RAM or DVD-RW, but there's no reason to burn 30 DVD-RW to test one authored DVD. ie. Have your program create the appropriate VIDEO_TS folder and then use Toast (Mac) or Nero (PC) to burn a DVD image, which the computer can mount as if it were a real DVD. (Nero makes .nrg images, and Toast makes .toast images. Actually for my simple stuff I don't even bother with test DVD-RAMs. I may do some testing with Toast images, but once I'm satisfied I just burn directly to DVD-R.)

DVD-RAM discs are sold in cartriges.

Some are and some aren't.

The newer
DVD-RAMs that I have (fuji brand, double-sided) are
not able to be removed from their casing, and thus
can't be read by any dvd-rom drive (VERY annoying)

You must specify what type of cartridge you want. However, often the Type II (or Type IV) removable cartridges cost slightly more than the Type I non-removable cartridges. So if you bought the cheapest 9.4 GB media, maybe that's why you got the non-removable type. Also, most 9.4 GB media comes in Type I non-removable cartridges, presumably because double-sided media is more prone to get fingerprints all over it, and you can't label the physical disc either, so many people might not have a reason to actually remove them. OTOH, I've just ordered a bunch of removable 9.4 GB media, not because I wanted to remove the disc, but just because they happened to be cheaper in this particular case.

Oh, one more thing, once you take the disc out of it's
cartrige, when you put it back the DVD-RAM drive
will write the disc in a different mode

I use various formats for DVD-RAM. The drive doesn't care whether or not I've removed the disc.

Also, while windows xp
supports reading dvd-ram, it does not natively support
reading discs that have been written in this different mode.

I'm not sure exactly what you're talking about. Do you have any more info?

I have never tried to author a dvd-ram like a dvd-r
and try to play it in my toshiba dvd-rom drive,
but you probably could do that.

This works fine.

I have never been able to get win2k to recognize dvd-ram
discs using the toshiba dvd-rom

You need to use the correct disk format. eg. UDF 1.5, even Windows NT 4 recognizes the DVD-RAM discs with the Toshiba DVD-ROM drive, with no extra drivers.

[rsuave5]

i cant say on the other player but i have the pioneer 104, and i have no complaints. capture, edit ,autor, burn to dvd rw.play , then if good it goes to dvd-r. i sell the concert bootlegs on ebay and out of 50 disks sold i never had a compatability issue! never! i buy only memorex dvd-r from buy.com for 3.70 a piece

[IremainAMisterE]

Well,given all the info...I think im gonna go with the Pioneer 104/AO4.
It just seems more sensible to me. I've gone over what everyone has said,and it seems like the Panasonic DVD-Ram is just too complicated to deal with. Im not really using the burner to back up data anyway. Plus, like someone said above, the Ram disks are more expensive. Also i do not think that DVD-Ram works in my set top DVD players. I've checked all over the internet for compatibility with my Toshiba SD2200 Dual Disk, and all the sites have ran tests and DVD-R works great. My other DVD player is new to the market(Magnavox MDV450) and no sites have info on it yet so....But it has given me no problems playingVD,MP3,(S)Vcd,CD-R/W, and X(S)Vcd. So the odds are pretty good that it will play DVD-R.

In the end...I also noticed that more people own a Pioneer 104/AO4. Which means more info and help when i would need it.

P.S. Thanx guys for your responses and feel free to keep the topic going.

[Eug]

Yep, the A04 is a good unit. In fact it's the number 1 selling DVD burner. For video it's a great choice, for it's 2X DVD-R burning capability, and simply because it's so common.

I tend to recommend Panasonic mostly to those who want serious data backup too.

[Xesdeeni]

Eug: ?? I just make disk images and test the image on my computer.

Then you have one heck of a better software DVD player than I have, because it does not behave the same as the actual DVD players I have tested. Also, part of my authoring has included the quality of the encoded video, which I have found cannot be accurately judged on the computer screen (I suspect the different gamma curve of the TV and the interlaced nature of the video are to blame.) Maybe now that I've worked out the encoding (mostly), I can concentrate on a better correlation between the software DVD player and the hardware ones.

Xesdeeni

[incognito]

Eug,

Thanks for answering. It's always great to get a knowledgable
response!

Oh, one more thing, once you take the disc out of it's
cartrige, when you put it back the DVD-RAM drive
will write the disc in a different mode
Also, while windows xp
supports reading dvd-ram, it does not natively support
reading discs that have been written in this different mode.
...

I'm not sure exactly what you're talking about. Do you have any more info?
I use various formats for DVD-RAM. The drive doesn't care whether or not I've removed the disc.

Mine does. There is a tab on the type-2 disc that you have to
poke out to open them. After this happens, the drive
goes into "write-verify" mode when re-writing the dvd-ram.
My winXP set-up doesn't recognize discs writen in this
mode. I can't get win2k to read any dvd-ram discs.
I format my discs in fat32, because some of the files
I archive are greater than 2GB.

I'll be sure to check out your faq for info.
Thanks again

[Eug]

There is a tab on the type-2 disc that you have to
poke out to open them. After this happens, the drive
goes into "write-verify" mode when re-writing the dvd-ram.
My winXP set-up doesn't recognize discs writen in this
mode. I can't get win2k to read any dvd-ram discs.

Strange. Maybe check your instructions for a better explanation of what's happening. You should be aware though that all DVD-RAM writes are verified.

I wonder what would happen if you stuck the pin back in with some tape...

As for Win 2K, I know that Win 2000 does NOT have the ability to format DVD-RAM with FAT32. I don't think it supports FAT32 reads on DVD-RAM either, but I've never tried it. You can always use UDF 1.5 however. UDF1.5 will be natively supported by Win 2000 for reads. You'd need extra drivers or software for write support though.

[incognito]

There is a tab on the type-2 disc that you have to
poke out to open them. After this happens, the drive
goes into "write-verify" mode when re-writing the dvd-ram.
My winXP set-up doesn't recognize discs writen in this
mode. I can't get win2k to read any dvd-ram discs.

Strange. Maybe check your instructions for a better explanation of what's happening. You should be aware though that all DVD-RAM writes are verified.

I wonder what would happen if you stuck the pin back in with some tape...

As for Win 2K, I know that Win 2000 does NOT have the ability to format DVD-RAM with FAT32. I don't think it supports FAT32 reads on DVD-RAM either, but I've never tried it. You can always use UDF 1.5 however. UDF1.5 will be natively supported by Win 2000 for reads. You'd need extra drivers or software for write support though.

I actually did put the pin back with some tape, which fixed things
completly-- which is why I'm pretty certain about what's going on.

Also, win2k CAN format dvd-rams in fat32-- I know because that's
what I have installed on the machine with the panasonic lf-d102.

At home, I have the toshiba dvd-rom, which will read the discs fine
under winXP but win2k is a no-go. Maybe I'll try installing the drivers
from the panasonic on my win2k set-up at home and see if that
fixes things.

I don't belive that UDF 1.5 supports >2gb file size-- I tried that
format initially and had problems with it.

[Eug]

I actually did put the pin back with some tape, which fixed things
completly

Interesting. Current Panasonic 4.7 GB DVD-RAM drives don't work this way. You can use bare discs, discs in intact cartridges, and discs in previously opened cartridges (with the missing pin). The drive simply doesn't care.

Also, win2k CAN format dvd-rams in fat32-- I know because that's
what I have installed on the machine with the panasonic lf-d102.

Actually Win 2000 can't natively format DVD-RAM with FAT32. Presumably you've installed Panasonic's formatting drivers which support FAT32.

At home, I have the toshiba dvd-rom, which will read the discs fine
under winXP but win2k is a no-go.

Win XP has native FAT32 DVD-RAM support.

Maybe I'll try installing the drivers
from the panasonic on my win2k set-up at home and see if that
fixes things.

Good idea. I wonder if the drivers will install without the drive installed. Probably will, is my guess. Tell us what happens.

[incognito]

I finally got around to installing the panasonic drivers on my
win2k setup at home.

No dice-- even with the drivers installed, win2k won't recognize
dvd-RAM discs.

[Eug]

I finally got around to installing the panasonic drivers on my
win2k setup at home.

No dice-- even with the drivers installed, win2k won't recognize
dvd-RAM discs.

I'm testing a Panasonic LF-D321U right now with Windows 2000.

4.7 GB DVD-RAM with FAT32, UDF1.5, UDF2.0 all work fine (with the Panasonic drivers). You can format FAT16 too.

I dunno about the Panasonic drivers with the Toshiba DVD-ROM drive, but I do know that the Toshiba reads UDF 1.5 just fine on DVD-RAM in Windows NT, without any extra drivers. I'll have to try FAT32 sometime.

[yg1968]

You should get the Sony +R and -R combo drive that is coming out soon. DVD+RW has many advantages over DVD-RW disks that you will be missing out on if you choose the Pioneer. See this link:

http://www.vcdhelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=112034

To get both sides of the story, you may wish to consult this website (the majority of users of vcdhelp are pro -R/-RW for some reason):

www.dvdplusrw.org

[incognito]

yg:
this thread has pretty much nothing to do with dvd+r or dvd-r
(although this looks like a pretty cool drive)

EUG:

I tried a udf formatted dvd-ram last night and, sure enough, it read fine.

Furthermore, I read on panasonic's web site (looking for updated
drivers) that there was a bug in their older drivers preventing
2GB files to be stored on udf-formatted dvd-rams.

This is inconceivable to me. how fould the formatting be that messed up??
Anyway, I've loaded the new drivers and I'll try copying 2gb and 2.1gb files
to the dvd.
In the meanwhile, at least I have a nice way of carting lots of smaller
files around.

[Eug]

You should get the Sony +R and -R combo drive that is coming out soon. DVD+RW has many advantages over DVD-RW disks that you will be missing out on if you choose the Pioneer. See this link:

http://www.vcdhelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=112034

To get both sides of the story, you may wish to consult this website (the majority of users of vcdhelp are pro -R/-RW for some reason):

www.dvdplusrw.org

I don't think the Sony is such a good deal. IMO, the main benefit of +RW over DVD-RW is speed. Everything else is pretty minor at this point. In other words, it's really only just duplicating features. Neither DVD-RW nor +RW have the same feature set as DVD-RAM. Thus, I think a combo +RW/DVD-RAM or a combo DVD-RW/DVD-RAM drive would be much more useful than a combo +RW/DVD-RW drive. Fortunately, a combo DVD-RW/DVD-RAM drive is slated for release next month.

Ie. With the Sony you're paying almost 40% ($100) more than a Pioneer drive for a RW speed benefit. If that's what you need, then that's great, but for most people I think it's a bit of a waste of money, esp. with DVD-RAM/DVD-RW/DVD-R Multi drives soon to be available.

[yg1968]

Incognito,

The initial question was about which DVD burner to get (set top or PC). I was reponding to that question. I am surprised that nobody had even mentioned the option of buying a DVD+RW/+R drive (or at least the Sony combo drive). I have never seriously considered a set top DVD burner as I find that they are expensive and not flexible enough. Just my opinion.

Eug

As far as I know, the DVD+RW disks are also more compatible with DVD-Video players than -RW disks (especially if you use the compatibility setting). DVD-RAM are useful for data but they can rarely be played on DVD-Video players.

P.S. Eug, you may want to update your FAQ to mention the upcoming Sony combo drive. You may want to also add that DVD+R has been proven to be at least as compatible as DVD-R.

[Eug]

As far as I know, the DVD+RW disks are also more compatible with DVD-Video players than -RW disks (especially if you use the compatibility setting).

If anything, it may be the other way around, according the www.dv.com review. But the differences are pretty minor - the compatibility is very similar and both are much less compatible than either +R or DVD-R.

DVD-RAM are useful for data but they can rarely be played on DVD-Video players.

That's changing as you know (with Panasonic flooding the market with inexpensive DVD-RAM recorders and players), but you are largely correct. DVD-RAM is very different technology than DVD-RW and +RW. But this is one of the reasons I said what I said above: A DVD-RAM/DVD-RW or DVD-RAM/+RW would be more useful than a DVD-RW/+RW drive.

P.S. Eug, you may want to update your FAQ to mention the upcoming Sony combo drive. You may want to add that DVD+R has been proven to be at least as compatible as DVD-R.

I will change it probably October when I have some more time to do a complete overhaul. I'll add a bit with the set top recorders too.

[yg1968]

I read the review that you mentionned. It does not take into account the compatibility setting. Many more DVD players work with DVD+RW disks once that you change the compatibility setting to DVD-ROM. See these links:

http://www.dvdplusrw.org/resources/compatibilitylist_dvdvideo.html
http://www.dvdplusrw.org/resources/bitsettings.html

The relevant parts of the review mentionned:

Conclusion #4: DVD-RW and DVD+RW are very similar
If you look at the data in Figures 5, 6, and 7, you can see that the overall compatibility of DVD-RW and DVD+RW is very similar, and probably within the margin of error of the test. The compatibility ratings of DVD-RW and DVD+RW are lower than DVD-R because many older DVD players won't read rewritable formats at all. Some older players detect that a DVD-RW or DVD+RW disc has the reflectivity of a dual-layer disc (between 18 and 30 percent), but they won't play the disc when parameters stored in the sector header indicate that it is a single-layer disc or has a data type that is not supported by the player. These logical compatibility problems are the primary reasons why DVD-RW and DVD+RW have lower compatibility ratings than DVD-R.