Need Some Advice...Panasonic DVD-Ram/R or Pioneer DVR-104?

[Eug]

What you say is true to an extent, but the bottom line is that neither DVD-RW or +RW have as much compatibility as the write-once formats.

Thus if you want compatibility (ie. to send a DVD Video to a family or something), neither DVD-RW nor +RW (and not DVD-RAM of course) is recommended. One should really stick to only DVD-R or +R.

[yg1968]

If you think of a DVD burner as a replacement for a VCR (which uses rewriteable cassettes), having a compatible rewriteable format is important. In other words, DVD+RW and DVD-RW compatibility with DVD-Video players is important for many users. I tend to buy mostly DVD+RW disks because I am never perfectly happy with my encoding, editing, authoring, etc. Having a rewriteable disks means that I can start over as many times as I want.

[Eug]

If you think of a DVD burner as a replacement for a VCR (which uses rewriteable cassettes), having a compatible rewriteable format is important. In other words, DVD+RW and DVD-RW compatibility with DVD-Video players is important for many users. I tend to buy mostly DVD+RW disks because I am never perfectly happy with my encoding, editing, authoring, etc. Having a rewriteable disks means that I can start over as many times as I want.

I don't think of a PC DVD burner as a replacement for a VCR at all. I think of a set top DVD recorder as a replacement for a VCR. Thus, I own both a PC unit and a set top unit, and a VCR, too.

What you're doing is more important for yourself for editing purposes, but it does not really apply for distribution of discs, at least for most people. ie. You may want to burn to DVD-RW, +RW, or even DVD-RAM for that matter, and then test on your own machine to make sure your authoring is good. But then all you have to do is make sure your DVD player supports one of the three formats and go with that. In other words, it doesn't really matter which of the formats you choose, as long as your DVD player supports it. (Fortunately, my RP91 supports all three rewritable formats.) However, it would be inadvisable to then send out 10 copies on rewritable discs, except for very specific situations where you know exactly what players are going to be used with these discs. The few times I can be bothered to author discs, for the final product what I do is send out write-once discs, if I'm sending multiple copies of home movies or whatever to family and friends.

Anyways, like I've said earlier, I usually do most of my testing directly on my computer, because I find it too time consuming to burn a rewritable DVD every single time I want to change something. It may be useful to burn a copy onto a rewritable disc for verification when making major changes though of course, because as we all know, a computer and a DVD player don't always behave the same way.

But then again, not all DVD players behave the same way either. Stuff that looks like great on my Panasonic RP91 may look like crap on my Apex AD-600A.

[Bud]

I have been using the Panasonic E20 for about a years now and it works great as a VCR replacement at least for me, I don't have to tie up my PC when coping from Digital Cable systems. Now if you have an extra PC recording direct to the PC is a good option also, so you would be the only one to decide what is best for you and your systems.

Aloha
Bud

[yg1968]

Eug,

I know that you have talked about this before but what are the advantages of DVD-RAM over DVD+RW?

Maybe Intel can convince the companies on making one truly multi format that would have DVD-R, DVD+RW and DVD-RAM.

Thanks,

YG

[Eug]

Eug,

I know that you have talked about this before but what are the advantages of DVD-RAM over DVD+RW?

Maybe Intel can convince the companies on making one truly multi format that would have DVD-R, DVD+RW and DVD-RAM.

Thanks,

YG

Hmmm... DVD-R, +RW, and DVD-RAM. That would be a pretty good combo. I don't see it happening though.

Anyways, the benefit of DVD-RAM is complete random access (with addressing info which is printed right on the disc), and more robust rewrite support (theoretically 100X more rewritable than +RW and DVD-RW). Think of it as a hard drive platter that is removable. Not surprisingly, Windows XP can format it natively as FAT32 and has already integrated drag-and-drop access.

Practical meaning of this:

PCs:
1) Stick disc in drive. "Format" it to FAT32 or UDF1.5, UDF2.0 or whatever, within 30 seconds.
2) Start storing and erasing data via drag and drop and full write speed. Verification step for data storage is not needed, because all writes are already verified. Run software directly off DVD-RAM if desired. (ie. Just use it like a hard drive.)

Set top recorders:
1) Stick disc in drive. "Format" it to UDF 2, within 30 seconds.
2) Record and delete programs at will. Reclaim all space from deleted programs for further recording.
3) Do frame accurate edits of programs at will, and the space from all deleted spots is reclaimed for further recording. No need for a reformat.
4) While recording, press play if you wish to play previously recorded video at the same time as you are recording on the disc.

This last feature I really like. You can set the player to record the Simpsons at 6:30-7 pm, and a movie at 8-10 pm. You get home at 8:45 and want to start watching the Simpsons. So you just select the program on the disc and press play. As you're watching you can stop and start playback as you please, yet the movie will continue recording on the same disc until it's finished.

[yg1968]

Not surprisingly, Windows XP can format it natively as FAT32 and has already integrated drag-and-drop access.

Isn't that what the upcoming Mount Rainier (for DVD+RW) is all about?

I have more questions:

Are you saying that DVD-RAM can't format in NTFS? Is it planned as a future enhancement?

I hear detractors calling DVD-RAM a glorified ZIP disk. (I kind of like ZIP disks, so that criticism doesn't work for me). What do you answer to that criticism?

[Eug]

Not surprisingly, Windows XP can format it natively as FAT32 and has already integrated drag-and-drop access.

Isn't that what the upcoming Mount Rainier (for DVD+RW) is all about?

I have more questions:

Are you saying that DVD-RAM can't format in NTFS? Is it planned as a future enhancement?

I hear detractors calling DVD-RAM a glorified ZIP disk. (I kind of like ZIP disks, so that criticism doesn't work for me). What do you answer to that criticism?

1) I'm not an expert, but IMO Mt. Rainier is a compromise solution. DVD-RAM was designed from the ground up as a reliable data solution, with sectoring info pre-printed on the disc (and hence immediate free full random access with minimal pre-formatting required), verified writes, and the best rewritability. Mt. Rainier will address some of those issues, but not all of them. Anyways, Mt. Rainier DVD drives don't yet exist so for now until the new Philips drive comes out and Longhorn is shipping it's a moot point.

I will have to see, but so far I'm not chomping at the bit to use Mt. Rainier on my CD writers either.

2) DVD-RAM cannot format NTFS. Neither Win XP nor 3rd party drivers support it. I don't hear of any plans for NTFS support either. To my surprise though, Mac OS X (which is a Unix variant) supports read/write access natively of FAT32 too on DVD-RAM, besides its usual HFS+. I dunno how Linux treats DVD-RAM.

3) I suppose you could call DVD-RAM a glorified zip disc, but with a different medium, better data integrity, higher capacity, and playability on some DVD players and set top DVD recorders.

Similarly, I'd say DVD-R and +R are pretty much glorifed CD-R, while +RW and DVD-RW are glorified CD-RW (whatever that means), but with higher capacity and DVD Video playability on most DVD players.

Anyways, I'm not saying that DVD-RAM is the solution for everyone of course. I think it's recommended for some (but not all) people that fall into one of the following groups:

1) Already own a DVD-RAM set top recorder
2) Want the best DVD data rewritable backup solution
3) Need OS level drag-and-drop support on DVD
4) Use DVD-RAM for pro DVD mastering or whatever.

In my case, I fall into categories 1, 2, & 3, and thus own a DVD-RAM/-R drive. However, for your average computer person primarily interested in video appz, DVD-RAM/-R is probably not the best choice. I'd recommend either DVD-RW/-R or +RW/+R. If the price premium remains with the +-RW/+-R drive from Sony, I can't recommend it to most people really, though, because like I've said before the two technologies overlap so much.

[yg1968]

Eug, thanks for your answer.

I already own an HP 200i (+RW/+R) but I was curious as to the advantages of DVD-RAM.

[Eug]

yg:
this thread has pretty much nothing to do with dvd+r or dvd-r
(although this looks like a pretty cool drive)

EUG:

I tried a udf formatted dvd-ram last night and, sure enough, it read fine.

Furthermore, I read on panasonic's web site (looking for updated
drivers) that there was a bug in their older drivers preventing
2GB files to be stored on udf-formatted dvd-rams.

This is inconceivable to me. how fould the formatting be that messed up??
Anyway, I've loaded the new drivers and I'll try copying 2gb and 2.1gb files
to the dvd.
In the meanwhile, at least I have a nice way of carting lots of smaller
files around.

Just got my new Firewire case. Plugged my Toshiba M1612 DVD-ROM drive into it and then put in a FAT32 formatted DVD-RAM disc.

Windows XP reads it fine. I can't test Windows 2000 though with this drive, since I don't have a Firewire card in the Windows 2000 box.

[Kusanagi]

Plugged my Toshiba M1612 DVD-ROM drive into it and then put in a FAT32 formatted DVD-RAM disc.

Windows XP reads it fine.

Any difference at all in reading/writing performance, in comparing UDF and FAT32 file systems on DVD-RAM?


Kusanagi

[Eug]

Plugged my Toshiba M1612 DVD-ROM drive into it and then put in a FAT32 formatted DVD-RAM disc.

Windows XP reads it fine.

Any difference at all in reading/writing performance, in comparing UDF and FAT32 file systems on DVD-RAM?

I've never tested read speeds, but I know that for DVD-RAM writes, FAT32 is about 20% slower than UDF. ie. For straight drag and drop copies with my 1X DVD-RAM, real-life write speeds with UDF are about 0.95X, but they're slightly below 0.80X with FAT32. (Speeds already include verification obviously.)

[kitty]

Interesting - would anyone discourage people from putting in a Pioneer 104 or other -+r/rw drive into firewire enclosure? It would be a good way to not have to remove a drive in already full pc's. As long as Nero & other authoring software sees the drive I think that might be a great solution to my problem.

[Eug]

Interesting - would anyone discourage people from putting in a Pioneer 104 or other -+r/rw drive into firewire enclosure? It would be a good way to not have to remove a drive in already full pc's. As long as Nero & other authoring software sees the drive I think that might be a great solution to my problem.

I use both my Panasonic DVD burner and my Teac 24X CD-RW in a Firewire enclosure. Both Firewire enclosures are $60-70 noname brand enclosures, and both work fine in both Windows XP (including with Nero) and Mac OS X. In fact, I have 5 external Firewire devices now. However, I've noticed if I keep turning on and off all the devices repeatedly, once in a while I might lose a device, forcing a reboot to get it back. But if I just leave the drives on they're fine. (This is strictly with Win XP, because with Mac OS X this doesn't happen.)