CCE questions from a former TMPG user

[batman0105]

Hi,

I'm thinking of switching to CCE Basic from TMPGenc and after experimenting with the trial version I am a little confused about a few of settings:

1. Many of the movies I am converting are encoded at 23.976fps and with TMPG I would normally set the Encode Mode to "3:2 pulldown when playback" and I'm wondering if there is a way to do this in CCE? There is an Inverse 3:2 pulldown option, but I believe this actually does an IVTC. Is there an option similar to the one in TMPG and I'm just missing it?

2. Luminance: 16-235 or 0-255 ?

3. Ok, this one is probably a very stupid question but I have to ask it anyway. All my encodes are done 352x480 with the resizing done by Avisynth. There is an option in CCE: "Half Horizontal Resolution"...if I am using Avisynth to resize, do I still need to check this? This is confusing because it sounds like it will cut the resolution in half of whatever it is currently set to (so in my case this would make it 176).

Any CCE experts out there, please feel free to point out any settings that a former TMPG user should know about. Thanks in advance!

[jowel13]

Another Question for CCE Experts:

After I hit "encode" CCE says I need a DVSD codec or something like that? Anybody know what this means and what codec do I need with CCE?

Gracias.

[Hamton]

jowel,

I got that same message when trying to encode my digicam avi file. You need dvsd codec. I installed it a while back from one of those codec packs... I just searched for "dvsd codec" on google.


batman,

1. Most people use pulldown.exe to convert 23fps to 29fps. It worked for me in the past but not anymore... not sure why. I get a movie that stops and go throughout after i run it through pulldown.

2. I always use 16-235
3. Never did that before so i wouldn't know

Hope this helps

[DJRumpy]

You can get the new GUI version of pulldown on www.doom9.org. It's a bit easier to use. Make sure your not selecting anything other than 'Set Drop Frame Flag'. You should need NO options selected when using pulldown.exe. Just inputfile and outputfile.

The Half D1 option will reduce your input to 352 horizontal. If it is already 352, then leave the option unchecked. You should also avoid the DVD compliant, as your already resizing your input via AVISynth.

16-235 is also what I use. I tried the 0-255 (PC) luminance range, but noticed problems with the luminance scale. Stick with 16-235, unless you have time to test.

[batman0105]

Thanks to all!

[adam]

You always want your final mpg to have a luminance level of 16-235, but there are several ways to get there. If your source is a DVD than you can set dvd2avi to pc scale and set CCE to 16-235, or you can set dvd2avi to tv scale and then set CCE to 0-255. Either method works equally well, HOWEVER, this tv/pc setting only has effect when you have dvd2avi set to RGB output, which is silly with CCE. If you use YUV output and avisynth to frameserve than you skip the RGB conversion and save yourself hours of encoding time. So, in short, if you have a DVD source and are using CCE to encode than set output to YUV and set CCE to 0-255. The source is already 16-235, so you want to use 0-255 to prevent any further luma compression. If you do anything else you are probably getting incorrect luminance levels.

If your source is an avi then you can use virtual dub to do a histogram to see if the graph drops below 16, in which case you need to use 16-235 in CCE to compress the luma back to spec.

If you set your luminance level incorrectly than you will not get true black. Just looking at the viewable picture alone this might not be noticable, but if you compared a correct and incorrect picture side by side than you would definitely be able to see what you are missing. The best way to see what it looks like with incorrect luminance level is to crop only half of the black borders. You will see that the remaining borders appear grey next to the added borders, which are true black.

[DJRumpy]

Adam, I ran into the luminance problem when selecting 0-255 in either.

With both set to TV scale, the resulting mpeg looked fine. Can you verify? Both were using the YUY2 colorspace.

[adam]

Well first off, we are talking about a DVD source correct? Anything else and you will have to determine the source luminance level manually first.

Exactly what do you mean by luminance problem? Were you able to visually see that black wasn't true black, or did you do a histogram and determine that it dropped below 16?

With tv scale selected in dvd2avi, regardless of whether in the YUV colorspace or not, 0-255 setting in CCE should yield the proper luminance level.

I always use tv scale in dvd2avi and 0-255 in CCE and I have confirmed that this gives me the proper luminance levels, at least on my sources.

[DJRumpy]

I didn't do a histrogram, which I should if I want to be sure. The next rip I pull, I'll verify both the input VOB's, and the output MPEG from CCE.

It sounds like your saying CCE will compress the luminance scale if you select 16-235, regardless of input type. In DVD2AVI, it will convert TO whatever setting you select (PC, or TV), stretching the luminance scale, or leaving it 'as is' when TV is selected?

[adam]

Exactly DJRumpy, except that when in YUV colorspace dvd2avi will not convert the luminance scale at all regardless of your tv/pc setting. This is why you should use 0-255 when frameserving to CCE with Avisynth.

Basically, a setting of 16-235 is used to clip out those luma levels that do not conform to tv standards. It clips out those "whiter than white" and "blacker than black" colors that cameras pick up but which a tv is not meant to be able to display. A dvd source should already have those luma levels clipped, obviously the DVD is supposed to be the final product and needs to comply with your tv display. A setting of 0-255 essentially preserves the luminance level of the source. A setting of 16-235 will clip out the extreme highs and lows, regardless of whether you are within the tv's specs or not. So yes a 16-235 will compress the lumanance levels regardless of whether they have already been compressed or not.

By compressing the lumance level needlessly, or repeatedly, you are loosing the dynamic range of your colors. Your blacks won't be as black as they can be and your whites won't be as white as they can be. Depending on your source and exactly how far off your luminance levels are, your entire movie can appear brighter or darker.

Here is an interesting article on Luminance levels that gives some hypotheticals and how to treat them.

http://web.archive.org/web/20020220124253/www.dv.com/magazine/2000/0400/luminanceranges0400.html

[DJRumpy]

Adam, what tool did you use to view the histogram. I though it was in VDub, but it only displays the histogram, with no raw numbers. Bitrate Viewer also appears to have no histogram info.