TV->SVCD Troubles...

[Devnull]

Specs are as follows:

Pinnacle Studio PCTV Pro
1.33ghz tbird
256 megs of pc150
win98se
newest VirtualDub and TMPGEnc.


I have been, for the longest time trying to make a decent SVCD from a tv capture and have had little progress. The best result I have had so far is capturing in 480x480 32bit rgb huffyuv. If I use MJPEG or any other compression is comes out very, very blocky, but is not blocky until after conversion to mpeg1 or 2, as an avi it's pretty watchable. The problem is, I only have ~10 gigs of hd space to work(30 gig drive, but still would not be enough) with so huffyuv is not an option until I can get a bigger hd in a few months.

I've been able to get a ok SVCD with mjpeg 19 at 352x480, but never 480x480(blockyness again), which I find odd. the 352x480 SVCDs seem to have fairly reduced blockyness, however I am trying to get quality that is a lot better than VCD alone. My SVCDs from a DVD source are all fine, but from a TV source they are only good unless huffyuv it seems, has anyone had these sort of issues? I posted about this before but never got too much help. I've been trying everything with VirtualDub and TMPGEnc that I could think of, or someone else coudl recommend.

If you're not sure of what I mean when I say "blocky" there is an example here of some of the worst here less than 2 megs. I would appreciate any new ideas on how to get a decent SVCD from TV, I can make good VCDs, just not SVCD. I tried LSX encoder and there may have been a slight improvement, but it's hard for me to say. Appreciate any help, thanks.

[bbb]

I use PicVideo's MJPEG and have good results.

Open your AVI with VirtualDub, smartresize precise bicubic to 640x480, and frameserve to Tmpgenc. Use Tmpgenc to downsize to 352x480 or 480x480.

Deinterlace using double and sharpen your video horizontal 70 and vertical 70.

Or instead of doubling and sharpening, IVTC to 24 fps flicker prioritized, Deinterlace Double Field Adaptation, Threshold 5. Encode with 23.97 (internally 29.97) with 3:2 pulldown during playback.

I get little or no blocks. What is Shack1.mpg anyway?

[Devnull]

Was a capture test from the "Shackleton" tv movie on A&E. Anyways, what's the point of resizing to a resolution higher than captured at and deinterlacing? Interlaced SVCDs play fine on my player, and if you are going to deinterlace a tv capture you might as well make it mpeg1.

[Devnull]

Well I did as you said it it didn't make it any less blocky =/ probably more

[bbb]

Did you realize that your mpg clip is encoded at 640x480 with roughly 2000 bitrate? Also, you are using DC precision 8 instead of 10.

That is the reason for your blockiness.

Always double check your encoding resolution before you press Encode.

[kjmacke]

With such little hard drive space try divx. I have used it awhile with good results. Even after encode I never get blockiness. Use divx 4.12 if you choose to go this route.

[Devnull]

Did you realize that your mpg clip is encoded at 640x480 with roughly 2000 bitrate? Also, you are using DC precision 8 instead of 10.

That is the reason for your blockiness.

Always double check your encoding resolution before you press Encode.

It's a pretty old clip, already had it uploaded.

[Devnull]

still happens in my newer stuff, not nearly as bad, but it's bad. Doesn't matter if I use dc10 or default or higher cbr. Perhaps someone could upload a sample of what they consider a really good SVCD tv cap.

[bbb]

Devnull,

Your clip that I downloaded was encoded at 640x480, this is not standard vcd/svcd/cvd/xsvcd/dvd resolution. More importantly, it's too high resolution to just be using 2031 video bitrate.

Solution: Encode it in 480x480 or better yet 352x480 at video bitrate 2450.
The blocks should be much reduced.

[Devnull]

That clip is very old, not the way I encode things now, am I repeating myself? ooops! It is not at all represntitive of the encoding settings I am currently using, but the blocks are.


It doesn't matter if I even encode to DVD, it is still blocky. This happens regardless of what I set the bitrate to, ooops I repeated myself again.

I've tried a CBR up to 6000, CQ up to 100, and 2 pass VBR with a variety of settings, in the above default bitrate.

It's not as bad but it's always there unless I use huffyuv. I've just been recording whatever is on for testing. Like if the camera moves, such as from someone's face down to the ground quick, or a car goes by, that can really do it.

[bbb]

Why did you tell me to download that clip if it was old and not a standard resolution? Why have you been distorting the truth? Why have you been acting like a punk? Why am I wasting my time with you?

[stanwebber]

a lossless codec(huffyuv) is the best solution for storing intermediate files period. lossy codecs will not be quite as good--introducing imperceptible artifacts that nonetheless sap bitrate. if you must use a lossy codec, filter your video with a spatial smoother on a low setting(jim casaburi's 2d cleaner, donald graft's smart smoother) before feeding it to tmpgenc. smart smoother accepts interlaced video, but i dont recall if 2d cleaner will. if not manually seperate the fields before filtering to allow the filter to work properly

[vhelp]

stanwebber,

What is your goal??
By the way, that 640x480 clip is NOT an svcd (or even xSVCD)
it's a junky encode. If you're trying to make SVCDs, you need
to revise your encode to 480x480 or 352x480.

first off, if you're test viewing on your pc, you'll almost always
notice blocks. AND, if you're using PowerDVD (as I'm pretty shure
you are) you'll notice them even MORE so! I always recommend you
use WinDVD 3.0, as it will play VCDs w/ no blocks, except for how
badly you encode to begin with - as in your case. Dump PowerDVD.
* WinDVD plays VCDs clean - no blocks, unless your encode was bad.
* PowerDVD play VCDs awful!! blocks, etc. weather your enocode was
bad or good.

But, in your case, you encoded a clip w/ a resolution of 640x480.
Just maybe, you have one of those dvd players that will play these
kinds of encodes. Dump this idea. Because it's not a standard.
Change your encoding process to either 352x240, 352x480, 480x480
These are "proper" dvd resolutions, AND will give you less blocks.

Now, based on your clip you provided, I would assume that if you
lowered your resolution to say, 480x480 or better, 352x480, you
wont see these blocks during movemnets as in this same clip.

You must dump 640x480!!
Also, don't get confused w/ 2pass encoding. 2pass encoding only
help keep your size to a certain level. It doesn't really improve
your quality, ie 640x480. If you "capture/encode" process is
not properly balanced, you'll end up w/ blocks, etc, even after
using 2pass. You could run 10passes and it still would look the
same. 2pass or more does not improve quality. It only keeps the
size at a certain level - - well, at least in your case.
IMO, i don't use 2pass. I don't need it. And, even if you or
anyone else would advise me to, I wouldn't because it's not worth
the double time it takes, and I know that 2pass will not improve
my quality encode.

facts:
* source quality is important. if your source is dirty or has a
number of artifacts, your encoding will show them, be it quality, or
blocks, etc.
* cable is noisy, hence the artifacts, blocks in your encodes.
not all tv programs are clean, such as that clip you supplied.
But, the PCTV is an mjpeg. These codecs produce washed out colors
as in the DV (my experience)

recommend:
* read the FAQ, and all the guides here. There are so many of them
on this FORUM. You're bound to find the right one that works for you.
It will just take a little time, till you finish reading all the guides.
* reduce your encodes to 352x480 or 480x480
* if you want better quality (color) then go with another capture
card, ie, ATW, (ati-tv wonder) (not All-in-wonder)
or the "Wintv GO" by hauppauge. These two cards capture in pure
avi, and coupled w/ huffy can yield good results.

I will be uploading a good sample clip, but it's a Standard VCD,
beleive it or not, he, he... these are how my standard VCDs come out
when I'm doing VCDs (which isn't always) I'm sure these are what
you get as well... so stay tuned. You can see the clips I have so
far at this link (thread)
vhelp's samples...

and scroll down to bottom somewheres. I've ben posting them via
that link for now.

-vhelp

[C53248]

Why did you tell me to download that clip if ...

I believe Devnull just intended that clip to be an example of blockiness, nothing else.

If you're not sure of what I mean when I say "blocky" there is an example here of some of the worst:

I agree that it sounds like the lossy capture methods are introducing noise that gets compounded by wasting your bitrate and thereby causing blockiness, since Huffyuv works. TMPGEnc's noise reduction filter is another option to keep your bitrate from being wasted on the noise.

[Devnull]

Thanks guys, I will try a few filters and let you know if it helps any... I think I am getting a little more out of it now.