Years of FCP7 then PR, I've just recently discovered these "real tools"

[swisspassport]

So, total noob when it comes to what I'm trying to do with these amazing "new" tools I've just discovered in the last few months.

I'd used ffmpeg before building some cloud transcoding solutions, and doing simple jobs, but I am now at the point that I am going to shamelessly ask for help to accomplish what I can't seem to do in your typical NLE.

I have come across a goldmine of "concert video", for my own personal private use, and some are in better shape than others. I have a lot of hi8>VHS>DVD>Vob>Mp4, and a bit later DVC>DVD. (Think like 1993 - 2003).

So I have seen the incredible work that people have done to certain videos, which puts those snake-oil "AI upscale" programs to shame.

I'm not asking this community to drop a whole bunch of knowledge based on that tiny bit of info I've provided, but I've exhausted my Google searching and finally made an account here.

I'd like to take 480p DVD VHS rips and clean & polish them to the point where people are shocked at the quality compared to the date. I know garbage in garbage out but some of the files actually look okay to start.

I have already batch upsized them with ffmpeg to 4:3 720h, because I want them to all be a 720p container with side bars. If that's a no-no I still have all the 640xz480 sources.

I am happy to script, but it seems like Hybrid is the way to go if I get to know everything possible about my source video.

Thanks so much to anyone who takes the time to reply.

[Selur]

I'd like to take 480p DVD VHS rips and clean & polish them to the point where people are shocked at the quality compared to the date.

Assuming:
a. your VHS captures were high quality
b. your conversion to DVD used max allowed bit rates
I doubt you can get "to the point where people are shocked at the quality compared to the date."

I have already batch upsized them with ffmpeg to 4:3 720h, because I want them to all be a 720p container with side bars. If that's a no-no I still have all the 640xz480 sources.

Any lossy reencoding will destroy additional details, so yeah start with the most unprocessed source you have.

Upscaling usually should be the last step unless you already got a prestine source which needs no further filtering, otherwise the upscaling will change the nature of any existing noise&artifacts and make things way more difficult.
So the best start would be a good made lossless capture of the VHS/DVC tapes and not some (probably already mishadled) DVDs.

Cu Selur

Ps.: This is not meant to be rude or anything, but it's the truth.

[davexnet]

A "before" and "after" clip would be useful to establish any meaningful discussion

[swisspassport]

Ps.: This is not meant to be rude or anything, but it's the truth.

No I did not get that in the slightest. Everything you said made sense, and here's the much uglier truth:

I am so far removed from anything that could be considered a "source", that I am probably barking up the wrong pipe dream here, if I may mix metaphors.

Like, an early gen source for me for a lot of these shows was a shared file that was a collection of VOBs that I painstakingly tried to do the best possible workflow to get that into mp4 container.

I still have a hi8 camera, and a VCR, but I don't have squat when it comes to real tape for ANY of these shows.

So the promise of these tools is predicated heavily on one having a solid chain of custody from the source. Makes total sense.

Maybe I'll swallow this reality check for this band's project, and focus on learning these tools through some old hi8 tapes I still have of family vacations and my own (young) bands!

Thanks for saving me a bunch of time!

[swisspassport]

A "before" and "after" clip would be useful to establish any meaningful discussion

Yeah I've noticed that's like the best/only way to get quality help around here, but these are concert boots that are still pretty legally gray. Plus the first responder gave it to me pretty straight.

I am like who knows how far down both the analog and digital degradation chain that I should probably just be happy with what I've got.

[davexnet]

A "before" and "after" clip would be useful to establish any meaningful discussion

Yeah I've noticed that's like the best/only way to get quality help around here, but these are concert boots that are still pretty legally gray. Plus the first responder gave it to me pretty straight.

I am like who knows how far down both the analog and digital degradation chain that I should probably just be happy with what I've got.

Just clips of 30 seconds or so should be enough, well chosen, something that shows
What is/might be possible

[Cornucopia]

NLEs are just that...editors. Yes, they are basically a swissarmy knife, where they have many features with few of those features being all that great. What they usually ARE great at is the editing. Other than simple top&tails or automated "commercial scene removal" or scripted command line batch bulk clip creation, NLEs' gui timelines is the best choice with which to do moderate to difficult editing. FCP is one of the best for Mac's, and Premiere is one of the best Cross-Platform ones, whether you knew that and were able to take advantage of that or not.

But what you describe sounds to me more like processing & re-encoding. In that case AVISynth-style (text script) processing is you best bet for processing, and ffmpeg-based tools are your best bet for encoding and 2nd best at processing. But face it, you are often at a disadvantage if using a Mac for these workflows.

And I agree with what was written, you are very likely mistaken if you: 1) think VHS capture is going to be considered great quality by any stretch of the imagination, or any usage of the term, and unless you were NOT a nooby and had the best equipment and processes down, yours might not even be on the high end of possible VHS quality scales, 2) think you can IMPROVE the quality to any large degree - you can reduce certain kinds of noise and artifacts but always at a cost of other quality factors, and 3) think re-encoding in a certain way or with certain tools will hit that golden spot of quality over and above what you started with. It is a longstanding axiom that you cannot improve on the quality with re-encoding, and (especially with lossy codecs) are more often going to further reduce the quality.

This was not meant to downplay or ridicule your efforts. Go for trying to improve what you can, but just stay grounded in the reality of what is actually possible in this field.


Scott

[swisspassport]

NLEs are just that...editors. Yes, they are basically a swissarmy knife, where they have many features with few of those features being all that great. What they usually ARE great at is the editing. Other than simple top&tails or automated "commercial scene removal" or scripted command line batch bulk clip creation, NLEs' gui timelines is the best choice with which to do moderate to difficult editing. FCP is one of the best for Mac's, and Premiere is one of the best Cross-Platform ones, whether you knew that and were able to take advantage of that or not.

But what you describe sounds to me more like processing & re-encoding. In that case AVISynth-style (text script) processing is you best bet for processing, and ffmpeg-based tools are your best bet for encoding and 2nd best at processing. But face it, you are often at a disadvantage if using a Mac for these workflows.

And I agree with what was written, you are very likely mistaken if you: 1) think VHS capture is going to be considered great quality by any stretch of the imagination, or any usage of the term, and unless you were NOT a nooby and had the best equipment and processes down, yours might not even be on the high end of possible VHS quality scales, 2) think you can IMPROVE the quality to any large degree - you can reduce certain kinds of noise and artifacts but always at a cost of other quality factors, and 3) think re-encoding in a certain way or with certain tools will hit that golden spot of quality over and above what you started with. It is a longstanding axiom that you cannot improve on the quality with re-encoding, and (especially with lossy codecs) are more often going to further reduce the quality.

This was not meant to downplay or ridicule your efforts. Go for trying to improve what you can, but just stay grounded in the reality of what is actually possible in this field.


Scott

I get what you're saying.

I switched to Premiere right when FCPX released, because like so many others I just did not want to follow Apple down that "roadmap". And for the sake of argument, I can do enough just with Premiere for denoising and scaling back the more blatant artifacts. I was an audio engineer before I got into video so I've always used Macs for creative work, but I've always had Windows machines too. I realize it's a lot faster with a PC with a couple RTX cards than a macbook with a 6GB chip. Unfortunately all my PCs are pretty baren in the graphics department, and how does one even get their hands on a 3060 these days?

I think my first post may have come across more desperate or urgent than I actually am. I am pretty content with the quality as it is, I just felt like I had done all I could in Premiere and I'd see what people's thoughts were. To me, I'm having fun just playing around with Hybrid and learning the scripting for Avisynth.

And when you talk about having the best equipment and processes down for tape, I AM that guy - except for AUDIO, not video. And this is a hobby project and will not make me any money so I do not care.

Regardless I appreciate you throwing your opinion my way, it's nice that strangers can still help other strangers out over common interests.

[Cornucopia]

I am at core an Audio Engineer also, but bridge to photo & video, and IT, and engineering and programming, so if you have Qs about certain video processes & workflows etc, I might be able to translate into equivalent understandable audiospeak.


Scott

[swisspassport]

I am at core an Audio Engineer also, but bridge to photo & video, and IT, and engineering and programming, so if you have Qs about certain video processes & workflows etc, I might be able to translate into equivalent understandable audiospeak.


Scott

I legit wrote the following around 3:30am last night. Hit "Preview", just came back to this machine (video) and the reply form was still open. But a few clicks of the back button and I copied all of it.
>>>>>>
Wow very similar story. My father built craft mixing consoles and outboard gear, then later made A/Ds and DACs. So I've been doing audio since birth pretty much. I took the product management route over more technical roles but in the last five years I taught myself several programming languages like I felt I needed to do it so I could build shit and make money.

But sure I'll take you up on some hard video scripting questions when I get there.

[Selur]

As a side note: when you use MacOS, I would recommend to better look into Vapoursynth instead of Avisynth.