Video Streaming Downloading Forum Clarification, Please

[criggs]

This is the Video Streaming Downloading Forum. The stated discussion purpose of this forum is to discuss "Everything about downloading streaming video and audio streams from sites like Youtube, Vimeo, BBC, Facebook, etc."

Well, that's what I want to talk about. I want to talk about "downloading streaming video and audio streams from" such a site, namely Hulu. Now I'm told I can't talk about that. Please explain this to me. If I can't talk about that, then what sort of "Video Streaming Downloading" (which is the name of this forum) CAN I talk about? This isn't making any sense. Thanks for any clarification!

[DB83]

Simple. If you can get it for free, not from a rental/subscription service, then you can talk about it.

Isn't the forum rule clear enough ?

[usually_quiet]

This is the Video Streaming Downloading Forum. The stated discussion purpose of this forum is to discuss "Everything about downloading streaming video and audio streams from sites like Youtube, Vimeo, BBC, Facebook, etc."

Well, that's what I want to talk about. I want to talk about "downloading streaming video and audio streams from" such a site, namely Hulu. Now I'm told I can't talk about that. Please explain this to me. If I can't talk about that, then what sort of "Video Streaming Downloading" (which is the name of this forum) CAN I talk about? This isn't making any sense. Thanks for any clarification!

You can ask about capturing video from a legal video streaming service which is always offered free of charge (free trials of paid services don't qualify). For example, non-paid streaming video offered by over-the-air broadcast networks via their websites.

[criggs]

Simple. If you can get it for free, not from a rental/subscription service, then you can talk about it. Isn't the forum rule clear enough ?

NO, definitely NOT!!! And thank you for replying to my question.

If that's what they mean, that's what they should say. Instead of the rule saying "Everything about downloading streaming video and audio streams from sites like Youtube, Vimeo, BBC, Facebook, etc.," the rule should say "Everything about downloading streaming video and audio streams from free, non-subscription sites like Youtube, Vimeo, BBC, Facebook, etc."

Hopefully, in light of my discussion with the forum today, that wording change will be made. I strongly believe it's necessary. I seriously do not think I'm dumb or illiterate, and that was not clear to me on the basis of the rule as currently worded. After all, there are no buttons or links on any of those listed sites, Youtube or Vimeo or whatever, that enables one to download that material. And much of the BBC material is blocked outside of the United Kingdom. And yet it's O.K. to talk about downloading videos from those sites. So, under those circumstances, the UNSPOKEN limitation to free, non-subscription sites is not obvious or intuitive. Not at all.

[criggs]

You can ask about capturing video from a legal video streaming service which is always offered free of charge (free trials of paid services don't qualify). For example, non-paid streaming video offered by over-the-air broadcast networks via their websites.

Then the rule should SAY that. Please see my reply to DB83.

And thank you for your reply to my query.

[lingyi]

I realize that most of us don't bother to read the forum rules or Terms of Use / Terms of Service when we join a website, but as I posted earlier, this forum's rules state the talking or asking about recording from subscription sites is prohibited. In addition Hulu's (and other subscription sites) prohibits recording or downloading of their content.

My emphasis:

"3.2 Your License. Hulu is pleased to grant you a non-exclusive limited license to use the Services, including accessing and viewing the Content on a streaming-only basis through the Video Player, for personal, non-commercial purposes as set forth in these Terms. The periods during which you can view each piece of Content will vary based on the rights availability of such Content and the terms of your subscription.


3.4 The Content.
a. Usage Rules and Limitations. You may only access and view the Content personally and for a non-commercial purpose in compliance with these Terms. You may not either directly or through the use of any device, software, internet site, web-based service, or other means remove, alter, bypass, avoid, interfere with, or circumvent any copyright, trademark, or other proprietary notices marked on the Content or any digital rights management mechanism, device, or other content protection or access control measure associated with the Content including geo-filtering mechanisms. You may not either directly or through the use of any device, software, internet site, web-based service, or other means copy, record, download, stream capture, reproduce, duplicate, archive, distribute, upload, publish, modify, translate, broadcast, perform, display, sell, or transmit or retransmit the Content unless expressly permitted by the terms of your subscription or otherwise by Hulu in writing."

[usually_quiet]

You can ask about capturing video from a legal video streaming service which is always offered free of charge (free trials of paid services don't qualify). For example, non-paid streaming video offered by over-the-air broadcast networks via their websites.

Then the rule should SAY that. Please see my reply to DB83.

And thank you for your reply to my query.

DB83 and I both meant the AUP, not the Video Streaming Downloading forum description. AUP: https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/72386-Forum-rules-Acceptable-Use-Policy-(AUP)?

Members in most forums are expected to read and abide by the AUP.

[DB83]

Snip...

And much of the BBC material is blocked outside of the United Kingdom. And yet it's O.K. to talk about downloading videos from those sites........

Well I have 'history' when it comes to discussion about recording from the BBC I-player for non-UK peeps.

Essentially, it is my opinion that the I-player is a subscription service since it is funded from the UK tv licence fee. I did, in the past, seek clarification about this and I thought that was the current status.

The BBC have also threatened to tighten up access to the I-player but they do appear rather lax in this respect.

[criggs]

I realize that most of us don't bother to read the forum rules or Terms of Use / Terms of Service when we join a website, but as I posted earlier, this forum's rules state the talking or asking about recording from subscription sites is prohibited. In addition Hulu's (and other subscription sites) prohibits recording or downloading of their content.

Well, now you can color me even more confused. There's legal software out there, which one can purchase and which has been in business openly for years with a huge and well-established user base, which enables precisely that with paid subscription services. I assume I'm within my rights to conclude that they have negotiated rights with that subscription service to do so, that the subscription service probably receives a share of the software vendor's profits, or perhaps receives a periodic or one-time fee from the software vendor, which licenses the software app to do that. That being the case, the Hulu provisions you have quoted may either be irrelevant or may, in fact, indicate that this legal software ain't so legal perhaps after all.

[DB83]

This has nothing to do with what software can or can not do.

It is for the content provider to sue the software creator. Baldrick, on the other hand, would rather not be sued. (unless you want to pay his fines)

[criggs]

it is my opinion that the I-player is a subscription service since it is funded from the UK tv licence fee. I did, in the past, seek clarification about this and I thought that was the current status.

Then why, if it is a non-free subscription service, is it prominently mentioned on the front page of this forum as one of the video sites for which downloading can be discussed?? And, if that is the case, if it's O.K. to talk about BBC then it should be O.K. to talk about Hulu.

Conversely, if it's not O.K. to talk about Hulu then, according to what you say, it shouldn't be O.K. to talk about BBC either. In which case, not only does the front page wording for this forum have to be supplemented with the words "free, non-subscription" but the reference to BBC needs to be removed as well. You can't have it both ways.

Unless, of course, one determines that BBC is not a non-free subscription service.

[criggs]

Baldrick, on the other hand, would rather not be sued. (unless you want to pay his fines)

Sorry, you've lost me. Who's Baldrick?

[usually_quiet]

or may, in fact, indicate that this legal software ain't so legal perhaps after all.

Yes, companies often make claims about their product which are either completely false or are only true under certain circumstances. In the US, any claim of PlayOn's legality with respect to paid streaming services is most likely untrue.

Sorry, you've lost me. Who's Baldrick?

He's VideoHelp's owner and chief moderator.

[criggs]

Yes, companies often make claims about their product which are either completely false or are only true under certain circumstances. In the US, this claim of legality is most likely untrue.

Which begs the question how is it that PlayOn has been successfully in business for ten years, as of last month, with, apparently, no legal challenges and no legal problems? A software app, moreover, which is prominently and unambiguously given a full page by the Video Help web site at https://www.videohelp.com/software/PlayOn . It is O.K. for us to refer to PlayOn, to read Video Help reviews of the product, to download the product from one of Video Help's own pages, and yet we can't talk about the specific use of the PlayOn app. This is not making any sense.

[DB83]

Like I said, the issue with the BBC I-player is my opinion. Others can have different opinions.

It is much clearer when there is a direct claim for a subscription or a rental fee.

Guess you will not be getting a Xmas card from Baldrick this year Or did you not notice who eventually closed the other thread ?

[criggs]

Sorry, you've lost me. Who's Baldrick?

He's VideoHelp's owner and chief moderator.

Thank you for the clarification.

[criggs]

Like I said, the issue with the BBC I-player is my opinion. Others can have different opinions.

Thank you for the clarification. I misunderstood you to say that the forum eventually agreed with your take that BBC was a subscription service. Obviously if the forum decided BBC was not a subscription service, then there is no inconsistency.

Guess you will not be getting a Xmas card from Baldrick this year

In case there is any confusion or uncertainty, let me state clearly and unambiguously that I wish Baldrick an unequivocally happy and joyous Xmas this year and every year! And that's the name of that tune!

Or did you not notice who eventually closed the other thread ?

I'd still like to know how you managed to re-open it!!

[lingyi]

I realize that most of us don't bother to read the forum rules or Terms of Use / Terms of Service when we join a website, but as I posted earlier, this forum's rules state the talking or asking about recording from subscription sites is prohibited. In addition Hulu's (and other subscription sites) prohibits recording or downloading of their content.

Well, now you can color me even more confused. There's legal software out there, which one can purchase and which has been in business openly for years with a huge and well-established user base, which enables precisely that with paid subscription services. I assume I'm within my rights to conclude that they have negotiated rights with that subscription service to do so, that the subscription service probably receives a share of the software vendor's profits, or perhaps receives a periodic or one-time fee from the software vendor, which licenses the software app to do that. That being the case, the Hulu provisions you have quoted may either be irrelevant or may, in fact, indicate that this legal software ain't so legal perhaps after all.

PlayOn states that use of their software falls under the Fair Use Doctrine:

https://www.playon.tv/blog/playon-legal

"So – like any other DVR, PlayOn is protected under the Fair Use doctrine of US copyright law. Consumer Reports sums up just how PlayOn is the modern equivalent of yesterday’s VCR in today's streaming era."

Whether the use of PlayOn (or other software like is) to record/download from paid subscription sites is legal or not is irrelevant as regards this forum. When you joined and post on this forum, you agreed to follow this forum's, Forum Rules / Acceptable Use Policy. Baldrick's house, his rules.

[DB83]

I did not re-open it.

Methinks there was a forum error which prevented the initial closing. Hence my humorous response.

[lingyi]

I did not re-open it.

Methinks there was a forum error which prevented the initial closing. Hence my humorous response.

Naw, your true identity as a SUPER DUPER Mod has been revealed!

[DB83]

Damnit.

Where's my cape

[usually_quiet]

Yes, companies often make claims about their product which are either completely false or are only true under certain circumstances. In the US, this claim of legality is most likely untrue.

Which begs the question how is it that PlayOn has been successfully in business for ten years, as of last month, with, apparently, no legal challenges and no legal problems? A software app, moreover, which is prominently and unambiguously given a full page by the Video Help web site at https://www.videohelp.com/software/PlayOn . It is O.K. for us to refer to PlayOn, to read Video Help reviews of the product, to download the product from one of Video Help's own pages, and yet we can't talk about the specific use of the PlayOn app. This is not making any sense.

If PlayOn is used for downloading or recording the screen for free services, it is as legal as any other software used for that purpose.

The product description for PlayOn was lifted from their website, as is typical for a lot of the commercial products listed in the software section, and given the AUP, the site itself doesn't endorse using it for any illegal purpose.

FYI this site follows "Fair Use" guidelines which preclude copying rentals. VideoHelp's owner/moderator decided that the video delivered by streaming services are considered rentals and are often called that by the service provider. Even if you "buy" the video, in most cases you don't actually own a copy but have merely purchased an unlimited number of rentals, plus it makes moderation easier to treat all paid streaming the same way.

[criggs]

If PlayOn is used for downloading or recording the screen for free services, it is as legal as any other software used for that purpose...FYI this site follows "Fair Use" guidelines, which preclude copying rentals. VideoHelp's owner/moderator decided that the video delivered by streaming services are considered rentals and are often called that by the service provider. Even if you "buy" the video, in most cases you don't actually own a copy but have merely purchased an unlimited number of rentals, plus it makes moderation easier to treat all paid streaming the same way.

O.K., that makes a bit more sense.

[Eric-jan]

And geo-blocking each citizen pays for it's own public tv service through tax, each country does this i guess, it's only fair...
why all this fuzz ? while torrents are so easy available, (for private use)

[ponens]

It is interesting that forum threads involving using PlayOn for DVR functionality are prohibited and quickly locked, yet one of the recent forum banners contained this text;

"Our website is made possible by displaying online advertisements to our visitors. Consider supporting us by disable your adblocker or try PlayON ..."

The banner goes on to mention various subscription services, including hulu.

This particular banner has been out of the rotation for a little while. Maybe the forum policy has changed, or the policy only applies to discussions and not advertising.

[usually_quiet]

@Eric-jan You should read the AUP's warez rules. They don't say it is OK to discuss obtaining copyrighted materials via torrent as long as it is for private use.

[criggs]

It is interesting that forum threads involving using PlayOn for DVR functionality are prohibited and quickly locked, yet one of the recent forum banners contained this text;

"Our website is made possible by displaying online advertisements to our visitors. Consider supporting us by disable your adblocker or try PlayON ..."

The banner goes on to mention various subscription services, including hulu...Maybe the forum policy...only applies to discussions and not advertising.

Which in itself is confusing and inconsistent, if true. Seems to be a case of do what I say, not what I do.

[DB83]

I do not think the site has any control over the banner ads it shows. These all come via Google and are personally targeted.

Would you prefer to deny Baldrick a little income for running this site ? Someone has to pay for it.

And, I think it's already been stated that no one is stopping you from using any software. Same that no one will prevent you from using torrents. But then no one likes rules either.

[ponens]

I do not think the site has any control over the banner ads it shows. These all come via Google and are personally targeted.

This particular ad seems doesn't seem to be third-party sourced. The following image shows the banner currently shown on the logout screen today;

[lingyi]

I do not think the site has any control over the banner ads it shows. These all come via Google and are personally targeted.

Would you prefer to deny Baldrick a little income for running this site ? Someone has to pay for it.

And, I think it's already been stated that no one is stopping you from using any software. Same that no one will prevent you from using torrents. But then no one likes rules either.

Back in July there was a gun related ad that caused some controversy and was removed from the ad rotation, so there is some control over ads. Banner ads are targeted based on what you've searched on Google and other sites like this forum.* Like the gun ad, the OP's prior searches probably triggered the PlayOn ad as part of the targeted marketing.

*I'm not sure about his forum, but a lot of website searches are powered by Google.

Personally, I don't pay attention to the ads, figuring if there's something really great, I'll hear about it some other way (e.g. Google search, through forums, etc).

In the end, it's Baldrick's house and house rules override any ads.