Why isn't this DVD-compliant?

[koberulz]

General
Format                                   : MPEG Video
Format version                           : Version 2
File size                                : 5.96 GiB
Duration                                 : 1 h 43 min
Overall bit rate mode                    : Variable
Overall bit rate                         : 8 252 kb/s

Video
Format                                   : MPEG Video
Format version                           : Version 2
Format profile                           : Main@Main
Format settings, BVOP                    : Yes
Format settings, Matrix                  : Custom
Format settings, GOP                     : Variable
Format settings, picture structure       : Frame
Duration                                 : 1 h 43 min
Bit rate mode                            : Variable
Bit rate                                 : 8 252 kb/s
Maximum bit rate                         : 9 000 kb/s
Width                                    : 704 pixels
Height                                   : 576 pixels
Display aspect ratio                     : 4:3
Frame rate                               : 25.000 FPS
Standard                                 : PAL
Color space                              : YUV
Chroma subsampling                       : 4:2:0
Bit depth                                : 8 bits
Scan type                                : Interlaced
Scan order                               : Top Field First
Compression mode                         : Lossy
Bits/(Pixel*Frame)                       : 0.814
Time code of first frame                 : 00:00:00:00
GOP, Open/Closed                         : Open
GOP, Open/Closed of first frame          : Closed
Stream size                              : 5.96 GiB (100%)

Is it the 704 pixel width? If so, do I resize or add borders?

I've got an AVS file:

AVISource("file.avi")
Crop(8,0,-8,0)
AssumeTFF().SeparateFields().SelectEvery(4,0,3).Weave()
ConvertToYV12(matrix="rec601",interlaced=true)

I usually output to x264 (forcing SAR of 12:11), where it works just fine for storage on a hard drive, but the idea is to also have the option of making a DVD from the same file. Clearly it's not going to plan.

Not cropping causes distortion, so I definitely can't leave it as-is.

[DB83]

Actually, 704*576 is dvd-compliant for PAL. DAR should display it correctly.

I am more concerned with 'variable GOP'

Also you have not posted any audio info. That could be important as well.

[koberulz]

It's an m2v, there's no audio info to post. Encore is insisting on transcoding it before it will let me author a disc.

It came out of HCenc, and I clicked "make DVD compliant" before encoding. Not sure where the relevant GOP setting is?

[DB83]

Ok. IIRC a lot of authoring programs can only handle 720 pixels width.

Rather than use Encore why not try avstodvd - has a compliant flag setting - or dvd-styler.

Rather than crop you could add 16 pixels, 8 to both sides, to make it 720. Encore may still not like the GOP setting. Sorry. Can not assist there.

[manono]

If all you want to do is to author it if it's compliant, load the M2V into Muxman. If it's compliant it will author; if it's not it won't and the log will explain why. I suspect it'll author and it's just another example of Encore refusing to author compliant sources.

[Cornucopia]

Is a little bit close to the bitrate ceiling, for some hardware players, though.

Scott

[DB83]

^^ And surely the dvd is not going to be silent. The combined video+audio could exceed the allowed rate. Not getting the full picture (pardon the pun)

[jagabo]

Check the max GOP size (15 for interlaced PAL) and max consecutive b-frames (2).

[videobruger]

Gspot will show the GOP structure beside telling if it is DVD compliant.

[koberulz]

^^ And surely the dvd is not going to be silent. The combined video+audio could exceed the allowed rate. Not getting the full picture (pardon the pun)

I'll respond to the rest when I have time, but it's an m2v file. Encore won't accept it as-is, and insists on transcoding it. This is before I combine it with the audio track or anything. It's an import problem, not an export problem, therefore the audio is irrelevant.

[turk690]

Encore won't accept it as-is, and insists on transcoding it.

In cases like this I will edit & create a 5min segment out of the original pre-HCenc file, then feed it to, and let Encore transcode it as it wants. Then I will compare its creation with that from HCenc. Encore generally will not want open-GOPs anywhere in the stream.

[koberulz]

Muxman stopped responding, but not before putting out a handful of functional VOB files. Encore also successfully imported a version with the Crop line commented out of the AVS.

So it's definitely the width.

[manono]

What did its log have to say? It's found in the root of the 'C' drive for 32 bit Windows systems. Don't know where it is for 64 bit.

The program leaves a log at c:\muxman.log

So it's definitely the width.

Not for Muxman, it isn't. As I said earlier, Premiere often rejects compliant M2Vs. And 704x576 is compliant. And if HC-Enc made it compliant for DVD, then I expect it is. But the fact that Muxman didn't complete is troubling. There's a difference, though. Encore rejected it immediately where Muxman didn't. Muxman quit partway through. That sometimes points to buffer underflows.

[koberulz]

I just assumed Muxman hiccuped for some unrelated reason. Running it again confirms that is the case; it completed successfully.

So it's definitely Encore not liking the width.

[DB83]

^^ And surely the dvd is not going to be silent. The combined video+audio could exceed the allowed rate. Not getting the full picture (pardon the pun)

I'll respond to the rest when I have time, but it's an m2v file. Encore won't accept it as-is, and insists on transcoding it. This is before I combine it with the audio track or anything. It's an import problem, not an export problem, therefore the audio is irrelevant.

I do know what a m2v file is. I was merely looking for a possible reason other than what has already been mentioned as to why Encore was rejecting it.

It's not a program I am familiar with but most will accept and only complain at the point of encode. And at that point the audio does become relevant.

HCenc AFAIK is one of the better mpeg2 encoders out there. It would be strange IMO for it to output a quirky file unless the problem is with the initial source.

I would still go back to the initial source and try one of the two programs I originally suggested. AvstoDVD uses HCenc as well as other encoders to author compliant dvd iso or folders or even a plain ol' mpeg2 if you need to import that elsewhere for final authoring, menus etc.

[koberulz]

Encore doesn't reject it in the sense of not importing it, it just says it'll have to re-encode the file in order to author a disc.

[koberulz]

So I was doing some Googling and came across this thread, gave it a whirl and got the same result: the first two VOBs work just fine, the third fails.

Is there any other way to get around this?

[DB83]

What about trying what has already been suggested.

Or even throw that original m2v into avstodvd and produce an elementary stream as output if you really need that for Encore.

Or go back to HCenc and set the gop structure correctly as jagabo stated

[usually_quiet]

@koberulz Is there some reason why you must use Encore? There are other options. I have used AVStoDVD, DVDStyler, and an ancestor of TMPGEnc Authoring Works to author 704x480 NTSC material. All of them should work for 704x576 PAL material too.

AVStoDVD and DVDStyler are free. AVStoDVD uses Muxman for authoring. If you don't need a menu or if a simple menu is acceptable, then perhaps AVStoDVD would be good enough. DVDStyler, which uses dvdauthor instead of Muxman for authoring, also accepts 704x576 material and allows creating fancier menus, but was more prone to crashing when I tried it.

[koberulz]

All my menus and such are created for Encore. I've got a pre-menu animation, and a motion menu, and menu transitions, and a PSD file set up with the buttons flagged correctly...

Plus I know how to use Encore.

@DB83: The settings jagabo suggested are the settings I've been using. It's got nothing to do with the GOP structure; simply removing the Crop() line from the AVS file results in an m2v that Encore is perfectly happy with.

[usually_quiet]

It's got nothing to do with the GOP structure; simply removing the Crop() line from the AVS file results in an m2v that Encore is perfectly happy with.

Not surprising since that change in the script produces a file with 720x576 resolution. I'm guessing that black pillarbox bars were behind the original decision to crop the video.

[koberulz]

I'm aware it produces 720x576, that was the point of the experiment.

It's nothing to do with pillarboxing - who would even notice 8 pixels of pillarboxing? - it's simply that 720 is wrong for the footage in question. It's a basketball game, and the ball is round when viewing the 704x576 version at 4:3, and oblong when viewing the 720x576 version at 4:3.

[DB83]

It really should not matter since the image gets resized regardless of the SAR. Both should display as 768*576.

Can you upload a small appropriate sample ?

[manono]

All my menus and such are created for Encore. I've got a pre-menu animation, and a motion menu, and menu transitions, and a PSD file set up with the buttons flagged correctly...

Plus I know how to use Encore.

I figured as much. You use it for its menu creation abilities as much as for for the authoring. Here's an alternative if you insist on using Encore. Use a "dummy" video, a short one for which you create the menus and pre-menu video and such. Create the same number of chapters as in the "real" video and output a finished product. Then replace the "dummy" video with the Muxman authored one in PGCEdit in File->ReplaceVTST Titles. I do it all the time when creating DVD menus in DVDAuthorGUI to save a ton of time in case I make a mistake and have to do it over. I use a three minute music video when creating the DVD and create the menu as normal.

Also, pre-menu video DVDs can be added afterwards in PGCEdit in Title->Import First-Play (startup) Clip.

[koberulz]

I thought about that - it was suggested to me on here a while back as a method of replacing menus on already-authored discs - but that won't allow me to place the layer break.

It really should not matter since the image gets resized regardless of the SAR. Both should display as 768*576.

If you resize 704 to 768, it looks different to when you resize 720 to 768.

[DB83]

If you accept that both display at 768*576 (and both should) then it is the 704*576 that should be stretched. Vertical resolution should be the same.

It's been years since I handled a 704*576 direct capture. Most equipment these days will only do 720*576. It's quite possible especially if this is an old recording that the original source was 704*576 which is why that looks correct.

If you can post that short sample then others can look at the footage and suggest 'fixes'

[koberulz]

The source is a VHS tape, from the 80s.

I'm not sure to what end you want me to post a sample.

[usually_quiet]

I'm aware it produces 720x576, that was the point of the experiment.

It's nothing to do with pillarboxing - who would even notice 8 pixels of pillarboxing? - it's simply that 720 is wrong for the footage in question.

Based on past experience here, I'm fairly certain that some people would notice the 8 pixel-wide black bars in their editor and would want to remove them.

It's a basketball game, and the ball is round when viewing the 704x576 version at 4:3, and oblong when viewing the 720x576 version at 4:3.

All I can say is that somewhere along the way someone mishandled your video. There could be a different way to fix the video that doesn't result in 704x576 resolution.

[DB83]

It's rather obvious. Encore accepts 720* but you say that looks wrong whereas your 704* looks fine.

So one must find a way to create a 720* file that looks ok, Encore accepts and does not result in bad vobs.

Might I also ask what capture device you are using and any settings adopted.

The sample should be from the original capture and not after any processing through HCenc etc.

Alternatively, just bite the bullet and accept the footage as is. No harm in wanting perfection but just ask yourself how many times you will actually watch this.

[manono]

I thought about that - it was suggested to me on here a while back as a method of replacing menus on already-authored discs - but that won't allow me to place the layer break.

ImgBurn will set a layer break at the best possible place when the DVD is burned to disk. Or, you can set it in advance of burning in PGCEdit:

http://www.digital-digest.com/~blutach/dl_burn_guide2/dl_burning_with_pgcedit_v2.htm