VCD and SVCD and XSVCD and Tigers, Oh My!

[heavyharmonies]

Oy vey. Too many options to experiment with in TMPGENC for this NEWBIE.

Source: LD and VHS via S-VHS connection, pulled in to DV AVI via Canopus ADVC-100.

The clip is a 4-minute music video; lots of movement.

I've tried the following:

Default VCD
Default SVCD
352x240 MPEG1 CQ100 Max Bitrate 3Mb
352x240 MPEG1 CQ100 Max Bitrate 4Mb
480x480 CQ100 Max Bitrate 4Mb
352x480 CQ100 Max Bitrate 4Mb
704x480 CQ100 Max Bitrate 4Mb
352x240 2-pass VBR Min:0 Avg: 1150 Max: 3000
352x240 2-pass VBR Min:0 Avg: 2520 Max: 4500
480x480 2-pass VBR Min:0 Avg: 2520 Max: 4500
352x240 MPEG2 CQ100 Max Bitrate 4Mb

Using a 55-inch HD-ready set as my monitor, NONE of the resolutions above 352x240 looked decent; all had blockiness to one degree or another. 352x240 on the other hand looked very good using CQ with a quality setting of 100 and max bitrate of 3Mb. Slightly soft image, but no visible blockiness at all.

CQ did a considerably better job than 2-pass VBR.

Question: all other parameters being equal is there any difference or benefit to encoding via MPEG2 vs. MPEG1? I didn't see any.

I didn't see much of a difference (other than filesize) between max bitrate 3Mb and max bitrate 4Mb.

352x240 MPEG1 CQ100 Max Bitrate 3MB seems to be the one to go with.
4:34 in length = 101MB. Given that this was a movement-laden video, it looks like roughly 30 minutes per 74-minute CDR.

Any suggestions for either better quality or smaller filesize?

[kwag]

Try the link below 8)

[vhelp]

late night, heavyharmonies,


dont' know which of the above source you are refering to, LD or
vhs, but I do know for a fact (IMO) that w/ vhs captures, even
caping via DV (and its associated high res of 720x480) will not
give you any benefit as to quality higher than 352x240. Your
final output (for vhs) should prob. be 352x240 (or [x]vcd)

Have you tried vieing your final vcd/svcd on a regular size tv
set, ie 13" or 20" for instance? ? ? cause maybe its just your
HD tv's just too higher-tech for these low res. (352x240) vcds.


>> Source: LD and VHS via S-VHS connection, pulled in to DV AVI
>> via Canopus ADVC-100.
You also didn't say what your vhs source is, ie store-bought-movie
or a TV recorded show onto a vhs tape, (hopefully taped in SP mode
and NOT in EP mode) All store bought movies are in SP mode but
still in the 352x240 res.
* If it's a TV recorded show to a tape,
good luck (if its from cable, or worse, antenna)
* just becuase you used an s-vhs conection (i'm assuming you mean
s-video connection) it's not going to improve your quality, though
many would argue otherwise.
* on the otherhand, a recording to tape, done in SP mode, onto an
SVHS tape may come in better, but for this time you need an VCR
capable of playing back those SVHS tapes. scanlines are 400.
* I've done a couple of DV captures of my SVHS tapes, and to be
quite honest, I thought the quality was really bad. I don't know
why it happeded to me thoes few times I tried, BUT when I capped
using my ATW (ati-tv wonder) card, the quality was superb. So,
go figure! Must of ben a glictch somewheres w/ DV capping. Could
of ben the odd 400 scanlines for SVHS that through off the DV's
720x480 capping, ...i don't know.

I didn't know HD tv's require THAT much bitrate (3mb/4mb) And,
you're STILL not satisfied???. Must be in your encode that's
causing you bad quality, and @ what res??? vcd or svcd??? or
both???

Have you done any dvd rips and encodes and gotten better results???
Cause, if you have, and gotten better results, then its prob. your
source quality.

kwag, somehow, I don't think that your samples will do him any
good, being that he's stated he used 4MB bitrates and STILL wasn't
getting quality. He's after quality, AND using an HD tv (like
that really matters???)
heavyharmoniesBut, it wouldn't hurt to try the samples
(all ) and see what they look like (results) and then post
back here what your results were - I'd be curious to know!!

Also, would help a little to have more details on your tmpg
encoding process.

I use a DV cam to capture to miniDV tapes and THEN process via
firewire. My results (IMO) are excellent to me, and my 13" tv

-vhelp

[kwag]

I guess what he means for "LD" is Laser Disk. ( Or DVD? ) captured with the Canopus.

For the VHS, I agree, no gain in quality at 352x480. But change the template to 352x240 for a good size/compression.

As for the LD capture. What's your captured resolution heavyharmonies?

If it's 352x480 or above, then the template will make a huge difference.

kwag

[vhelp]

kwag, sorry, wasn't refering to LD's, (how many music videos R
on LD these days ? ? ? ...don't think there R any) But, anyways,
I've read some posts here (and seen some samples here) of a LD
capture, ...memeory serves me, it was a clip from one of the old
Star Wars searies.
I d/l'd these clips and the quality was pretty bad. But, again,
I'm basing the LD on those posts I've read here on this forum.
Besides, i was really refering to the VHS side

* But, on another note, IVTC'ing doesn't really go well w/ DV capping. At least not w/ ones i've ben having trouble with.
Most of my DV encodes (for most part) come out very well, as long
as I don't perform an IVTC on them. Those troublesome DV encodes
done with ITVC cause's sudden jerkes in some scenes where the
ITVC or interlacing, etc. didn't perform accurately... it's always
in the same scene. This tells me that it's the ITVC process.
I've used both the vdub and tmpg's methods. Same results. But,
i'm still working on it.
* But, if I don't IVTC my clips, a get smooth video playback
on both my PC monitor, and TV.
* yes, I know about those tv shows/programs that IVTC may/or may
not work well with. I'm aware of this.
* I do have a pretty good method though, of tracking WHEN IVTC
will, or will not work from using this IVTC process.

Again, i ask... would help a little to have more details on your
tmpg encoding process - as it may just be one or two things
that need to be changed, and you may not have to resort to such
high bitrates. Could be you're 29fps encoding process or some
thing else. . .

-vhelp

[kwag]

Hi vhelp:

Do your IVTC real-time with AviSynth+decomb.dll like this:
http://www.inmatrix.com/articles/ivtcsynth1.shtml

And forget IVTC'ing with TMPGEnc!.

Regards,
kwag

[vhelp]

kwag,

tanx! I'll have a lookseez the link, (just clicked it, but seems to recall
i've ben here, ...but will give another looks)

oh, if you're refering to 29 / inverse32 pdn, yes, I do these, helps me out
a great deal in quality
Just converting my 29fps to 23fps via IVTC (whatever methods) dont
seem to give me as good results as I'd like. When I firts performed this,
I was pretty happy, ...till I began noticing the jitters once in a while in
the same scene, ...no, not the wrong field order (done it both ways)
...it's the IVTC process for my DV captures. I don't seem to have ANY
trouble with my ATW (ati-tv wonder) captures, but I'll have to look into
these as well. I'll have a closer look at the link above. ...tanx.

On another note, I've ben having trouble with pseudo avi file creation.
For some reason, "VFAPIConv-EN.exe" doesn't seem to work any more!!
I've turned on/off the proxy in vdub, and still doesn't work. NO file ever
gets generated!! I click on Convert, it's does it's job, print in chineese,
but NO avi file is found anywheres
Oh, waiting a minite, it's working again!! Go figure.. .. I did say I have a
quirky system!! Will see how things go with vfapi. I had an idea yesterday
and I was so mad cause I couldn't get it ta work. Will try tonight, he, he...

Oh, kwag, saw the patriot sample. Looked pretty good on my pc at work,
but I noticed that for some reason you took off the origonal, which was
in 16:9 on my PC at work, and NOW, this clips was done in square mode.
Don't know you reason for pulling then putting, but still, looked good!!
I have fast connect at work, home here, 56k.

-vhelp

[heavyharmonies]

late night, heavyharmonies,


dont' know which of the above source you are refering to, LD or
vhs, but I do know for a fact (IMO) that w/ vhs captures, even
caping via DV (and its associated high res of 720x480) will not
give you any benefit as to quality higher than 352x240. Your
final output (for vhs) should prob. be 352x240 (or [x]vcd)

Yes, the source is laserdisc, captured at 720x480.

Have you tried vieing your final vcd/svcd on a regular size tv
set, ie 13" or 20" for instance? ? ? cause maybe its just your
HD tv's just too higher-tech for these low res. (352x240) vcds.

No I haven't. I have a 20-inch TV, but I don't have it hooked up to anything at the moment; right now it's the bigscreen, or my computer monitor.

You also didn't say what your vhs source is, ie store-bought-movie
or a TV recorded show onto a vhs tape, (hopefully taped in SP mode
and NOT in EP mode) All store bought movies are in SP mode but
still in the 352x240 res.

Almost all the VHS material I'll be working with is storebought material. There are a few concerts, etc. that I've recorded to S-VHS that I'll be working with as well. The VCR I'm using is a JVC 9800U.

I didn't know HD tv's require THAT much bitrate (3mb/4mb) And,
you're STILL not satisfied???. Must be in your encode that's
causing you bad quality, and @ what res??? vcd or svcd??? or
both???

I should probably clarify. The "bad quality" is the SVCD and higher resolutions in comparison with 352x240 CQ100. My main point (which I didn't just come right out and say) was that it seems that no matter how much resolution I "throw at" the process, or how I change the encoding method, I don't seem to get any better quality than VCD CQ100. Maybe it's the limitation of the source; if I were doing DVD rips maybe I would see better quality. Note: I'm actually not complaining about the quality of the end result at 352x240 CQ100, I just (perhaps mistakenly) assumed that "SVCD is always better than VCD", where depending on the source that in fact may not be the case. I just can't seem to get an SVCD that looks as good as (let alone better than) a VCD from the same source. If I had server space I'd post some of my clips for comparison purposes.

Have you done any dvd rips and encodes and gotten better results???
Cause, if you have, and gotten better results, then its prob. your
source quality.

I'll try some, although I don't see myself doing DVD rips as a general rule.

heavyharmoniesBut, it wouldn't hurt to try the samples
(all ) and see what they look like (results) and then post
back here what your results were - I'd be curious to know!!

I'll check them out tonight; time to head to work at the moment...

Also, would help a little to have more details on your tmpg
encoding process.

Laserdisc, S-VHS, DVD all hooked to a Recoton A/V switcher all via S-VHS, output from Recoton going to a Canopus ADVC-100, firewire to the PC. Captured at 702x480 NTSC.

Best results from TMPGENC encoded as 352x240 MPEG1, CQ (quality = 100), Max bitrate= 3Mb or 4Mb, no filters being run.

Thanks for the responses thus far!

[vhelp]

heavy,


>> quality of the end result at 352x240 CQ100, I just (perhaps >> mistakenly) assumed that "SVCD is always better than VCD",
>> where depending on the source that in fact may not be the
>> case. I just can't seem to get an SVCD that looks as good as
>> (let alone better than) a VCD from the same source. If I had
>> server space I'd post some of my clips for comparison
>> purposes.

If you're refering to your vhs captures, then yes, you basically
wont get any better than vcd quality, even if you encode to an
svcd. You're capping 352x240 res from a vhs source. So, if you
look at this way, ...its like those people who d/l those divX
files done in 352x240 and try so hard to make SVCD's out of them
to get (so called) better quality! Ain't gonna happen.
So, in your case (if i'm reading you correctly) you're thinking
that if you cap from vhs source, and encode to svcd, you will
effectively gett better quality/results? ? Sorry, but it wont
happen. At least not in my experience with this same approach.
I even did a few on some simple easy scenes, Guitar lesson videos.
I basically coudn't realy tell the difference between vcd vs. svcd
from my capped vhs source.

-vhelp

[heavyharmonies]

I think I've decided on the TMPGENC settings I'm going to stay with (unless someone has a radical suggestion to improve the quality).

You can download a 30-second sample here:

http://heavyharmonies.com/MPEG1sample.mpg

This is taken from a laserdisc released in 1985. It's fairly soft, but there is virtually no MPEG blockiness. Played on a cheap-assed Daewoo DVD player hooked up to my 55-inch set, it looks quite acceptable.

Captured as 704x480 NTSC DV (via Canopus ADVC-100).

Encoded in TMPGENC:
MPEG1 352x240
CQ (quality setting of 100, max bitrate=10000, min=0).
Motion search: lowest quality (very fast).
Sharpen Edge (H:74 v:74)

That's it. (not standard VCD, I realize, but...)

[Deusxmachina]

As has been said, upping the resolution from a VHS source is a waste of time and can often make things look worse because it is upping the resolution of a garbage signal.

But, similar things can happen with analog material on an HD television. If the source material isn't that great, then the line-doubler will be doubling garbage and making it look worse than it would on an analog TV. So, for some of the stuff, maybe your TV isn't helping the situation at all, either.