8mm to DVD

[VideoChunkster]

Hi guys,

Thanks to everyone who helped me a few weeks back with my questions regarding VHS.

I've just had my old 8mm footage professionally transferred to DVD ad I have a couple questions.


1) The footage goes for nearly 57 minutes and I see that only half the DVD has been used, does this mean the footage was compressed and as a result quality was lessened?

2) Overall it looks pretty good, but slightly blurry though. Is this normal for 8mm to dvd transfer because playing the film on the projector looks a bit better than when I stick the DVD on my HDTV?

3) I still have some footage left to get transferred and the next batch is a little jumpy, can a telecine play it without jumping issues?

4) Is there any good filters that can add a sharper picture to the already converted 8mm footage?

5) Any good programs for adding a soundtrack?


Thanks guys, all help is greatly appreciated.

[Brad]

You could attach a video sample or screenshot to your post to give us a better idea of what you're looking at.

1) The short answer is yes. The longer answer is that all DVD video is compressed. A 57-minute DVD with no audio can utilize close to the maximum video bitrate allowed by the DVD format. Your DVD uses about half what it could and the quality has been lessened (perhaps invisibly, but pointlessly).

2) A good 8mm scan should look as good or better than projection.

3) Telecines are outdated. The good scanning systems can deal with various issues.

Leaving 4 & 5 for someone else.

[VideoChunkster]

You could attach a video sample or screenshot to your post to give us a better idea of what you're looking at.

1) The short answer is yes. The longer answer is that all DVD video is compressed. A 57-minute DVD with no audio can utilize close to the maximum video bitrate allowed by the DVD format. Your DVD uses about half what it could and the quality has been lessened (perhaps invisibly, but pointlessly).

2) A good 8mm scan should look as good or better than projection.

3) Telecines are outdated. The good scanning systems can deal with various issues.

Leaving 4 & 5 for someone else.

Thanks so much for your answer man. When I took the 8mm reels down I knew I wanted a maximum of 1 hr on the disk and was quite shocked to see the burn showing only half the disk. Put it in the laptop, 17 8mm reels (50 ft, 3.20 minutes) only took up 1.84GB??

Im a little disappointed. So far tried the DVD in the HDTV, the SDTV, and the laptop. SDTV looks better as I expected, HDTV shows flaws and some blur, laptop shows imperfections. I got this done by a professional place, but I did expect more from a telecine. Don't have the money for Hollywood style scanning but thought telecine would do a better job than this.

Plus I opened it on pc to check frames and it only shows 2 frames for each video on the disc, so I don't think I can edit. Need a fair bit of help on this one, any extra help s appreciated. Plus Lordsmurf if your watching,,, helllllppppppppp

Apologies if im suffering from newbness or confusion need proper help.

[sanlyn]

There's nothing wrong with telecine. It's not outdated, at least as far as Hollywood is concerned. It can be applied in several ways. If it's done by setting a flag in the MPEG rather than hard-coding, the clip would physically have fewer frames and would be a smaller file. When you say you opened the video on your computer, no one knows how you viewed it. So we really have no idea of the quality level, the bitrate, or anything else. You can copy a VOB file from a DVD disc onto your PC and use DGIndex in the free DGMPGDec utility to cut 10 or 12 seconds of a scene with motion (someone moving, camera pan, etc.) from the original video and post it here. DGIndex has a simple preview window for this task. Ask if you need more details.

Otherwise, we're just guessing -- which won't help you very much..

[PGB]

When you say you got it done professionally, that could mean all sorts of things.

A real professional telecine operation would be able to give you a digital file that's as crisp and sharp as the original. And they'd probably prefer to give you the output as lossless files on a HDD rather than MPEG-2 DVD which is outdated now. With lossless files you could play to your heart's content with sharpeners etc., whereas with MPEG-2 you've already lost a substantial amount of detail that you could have recovered or worked with.

Have a look at videofred's post about using Avisynth with a telecine setup to see just what can be achieved!
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=144271

[sanlyn]

.... rather than MPEG-2 DVD which is outdated now.

Say, would you mind giving me your "outdated" DVD movies?

[VideoChunkster]

There's nothing wrong with telecine. It's not outdated, at least as far as Hollywood is concerned. It can be applied in several ways. If it's done by setting a flag in the MPEG rather than hard-coding, the clip would physically have fewer frames and would be a smaller file. When you say you opened the video on your computer, no one knows how you viewed it. So we really have no idea of the quality level, the bitrate, or anything else. You can copy a VOB file from a DVD disc onto your PC and use DGIndex in the free DGMPGDec utility to cut 10 or 12 seconds of a scene with motion (someone moving, camera pan, etc.) from the original video and post it here. DGIndex has a simple preview window for this task. Ask if you need more details.

In any case, concerning cleanup or sharpening, etc., which falls under the category of restoration -- the video would have to be decoded for that, processed in lossless format, then re-encoded and reauthored. Most of the software for that is free, but it would be a mistake to process interlaced/telecined video to accomplish what you want.

Otherwise, we're just guessing -- which won't help you very much.

Many thanks sanlyn, that explains some of my concerns. Opened dpmpgdec and made the d2v file, tried avisynth and 20 minutes in I can tell I don't know what im doing when it comes to all this technical side. After making the d2v file im not sure what to do with it. The help file says you can open it using avisynth or run the script in dgmpg but im kinda lost on all the functions on how t do it properly.

The info it says when playing is:

Frame size 720 X 576
Aspect 4:3
Frame rate : 25fps
Bitrate: 3.381 mbps
Bitrate: 3.2 Avg 3.243 mbps
Bitrate Max: 5.443 mbps

I viewed the file on Windows Media Player when watching it before. Theres 2 video files on the disc, when I click explore and click either one it plays the thing from start to finish. I would of thought it would be part 1 and part 2

[sanlyn]

A bitrate of 3381 is pretty low for full-frame PAL, but a lot depends on how it was processed before encoding.

Don't worry about being new to this. In DGIndex if you choose "File..." -> "Save project and demux video", several files are generated. One of the files is an .m2v (video, no audio). If you have cut a scene using the controls at the bottom of the preview screen, the .m2v is what you should submit. We can't use the .d2v project file.

MediaInfo has much more information than the text you posted (Click on "View.." -> "Tree", or on "View..." -> "Text"). You can copy/paste the text and post here; the full report might give valuable info about the processing. But even with all that text, we would still need a few seconds of .m2v from the original VOB. MediaInfo tells a lot, but not quite enough.

[VideoChunkster]

A bitrate of 3381 is pretty low for full-frame PAL, but a lot depends on how it was processed before encoding.

Don't worry about being new to this. In DGIndex if you choose "File..." -> "Save project and demux video", several files are generated. One of the files is an .m2v (video, no audio). If you have cut a scene using the controls at the bottom of the preview screen, the .m2v is what you should submit. We can't use the .d2v project file.

MediaInfo has much more information than the text you posted (Click on "View.." -> "Tree", or on "View..." -> "Text"). You can copy/paste the text and post here; the full report might give valuable info about the processing. But even with all that text, we would still need a few seconds of .m2v from the original VOB. MediaInfo tells a lot, but not quite enough.

Many thanks man. Yeah whats even worse the bitrate fluctuates from 2.6 to 3.3
I did what you said an it turned out .m2v yay I had problems just getting a clip so I used mpg2cut, if for any reason this changes the quality ill re-do it, but so far so good, heres an 8 second clip, monkey style

[VideoChunkster]

Hmm, now I am concerned. I got out my projector and thought id try out my new hd camcorder and record the 8mm film amateur style so I can feel the $200 was well spent on the professional transfer. I expected to see subpar quality and from that get reassurance that it was worth the cost.

I set up the cam and checked out the recorded footage. Keep in mind nothing has been done to it just hit play and record. Very minimal flicker, fps hasn't been adjusted just left on 18fps and the footage im comparing to the transfer done. Im tempted to say its identical and nothing has been done to increase the way it looks. I didn't even line up the cam well, I wanted a nasty looking capture, but it looks so good I wish I just transferred the films myself.

Any help on this one, is the place that did it not worth a dime?
Lordsmurf where are't thou?

[poisondeathray]

You got ripped off. Defintely the low bitrate hurts, when they could have easily filled more the disc. Maybe they saved a few minutes burning time ...

4) You can use sharpening filters, microcontrast enhancement, make color corrections (this will make it subjectively sharper) , but you need something decent to start with. Sharpeners must be used carefully because easy to oversharpen (halos, ringing) , and easy to enhance defects (spots, noise)

5) Depends on what you want to do exactly, how precise you want the timing or to match the content, number of tracks, etc.... basically any NLE can be used to add audio . If it's just "random" sticking some audio in without editing, then many free ways as well

Can you upload a sample of the "amateur" HD capture for comparison

[VideoChunkster]

You got ripped off. Defintely the low bitrate hurts, when they could have easily filled the disc. Maybe they saved a few minutes burning time ...

4) You can use sharpening filters, microcontrast enhancement, make color corrections (this will make it subjectively sharper) , but you need something decent to start with. Sharpeners must be used carefully because easy to oversharpen (halos, ringing) , and easy to enhance defects (spots, noise)

5) Depends on what you want to do exactly, how precise you want the timing or to match the content, number of tracks, etc.... basically any NLE can be used to add audio . If it's just "random" sticking some audio in without editing, then many free ways as well

Can you upload a sample of the "amateur" HD capture for comparison

Thanks for your reply. I will be demanding my money back on this one, im shocked I can even come near their efforts of a telecine, must be really inexperienced people doing this. I went to a place with a good name, knew that were using a telecine, they called me in last week and had mixed up the names, when I went in yesterday it was ready but I have found out they send t away to be done. I have found who did the transfer and where they are located, so they use a third party.

In short I will be asking for my money back. It looks better on the projector and my amateur capture than their efforts. I have emailed them, be interesting to see if I get a response. I will keep yas updated and will post comparisons when I am finished with them.

The worse part is when I saw the camera guy adjusting the focus during the movie and it jumping in parts that doesn't jump on the projector.

[VideoChunkster]

Been spending a good part of the night playing with the hd cam and projector, the results are defently better. Looks like the 1.84GB size should be close to 3.5GB, I defently got screwed. They have since offered my money back. Maybe they used an old camcorder doing it off a telecine, who knows, whatever the case it sucks that when I try to do a bad capture, its better than their transfer.

Thanks for the help guys.

The flicker which is one of the main reasons I never did it myself, is so subtle im shocked, its almost non-issue and im playing 18fps, avent even sped it to 24 fps. If theres filters to even fix that problem let me know.

Many thanks, this place is great.

Matt

[poisondeathray]

The flicker which is one of the main reasons I never did it myself, is so subtle im shocked, its almost non-issue and im playing 18fps, avent even sped it to 24 fps. If theres filters to even fix that problem let me know.

Yes, there are various post treatments, deflicker plugins, temporal smoothers you can use

But it's always best to reduce the flicker as much as possible in the first place during capture .e.g. adjusting the fps of the projector and fps and shutter of the recording device

[VideoChunkster]

The flicker which is one of the main reasons I never did it myself, is so subtle im shocked, its almost non-issue and im playing 18fps, avent even sped it to 24 fps. If theres filters to even fix that problem let me know.

Yes, there are various post treatments, deflicker plugins, temporal smoothers you can use

But it's always best to reduce the flicker as much as possible in the first place during capture .e.g. adjusting the fps of the projector and fps and shutter of the recording device

Thanks. If I adjust the fps from 18 to 24 fps does that speed up the audio which I have to correct later on? My hd cam must have something built in for flicker reduction because if I had to rate the flicker from 1-10, 10 bring the worst I would say its a 2-2.5 at most.

Also when recording obviously the projector sound is recorded along with the audio, any way of minimising the sound or eliminating it?


Many thanks,

Matt

[poisondeathray]

Yes, you adjust the audio in a NLE or audio editor

Are you in Aus ? 50Hz region ?

What kind of projector do you have? Is it variable speed ?

e.g if you can project at 25 (adjust until there is no flicker) and record at 25 fps, that will minimize or eliminate flicker. The main problem is a mismatch between projector shutter blades vs. your camcorder's shutter. eg. If you run the projector at 18fps, but record at 25fps or 50fps with 1/50,1/100 shutter, there will be unevenly "spaced" frames along with a camera shutter mismatch . Or if you can do 16 2/3 fps, that works ok with a 720p50 as well ( you have triplicates, which are easy to process)

Getting a 1:1 copy is important if you have other processing to do. Things like temporal filters, denoisers, don't work as well if you have a blended or duplicate frames version. But if the intended goal is 25 fps PAL DVD, then you have to decide on which method to get from 18 fps to 25 fps . Usually some method or combination of blending or duplicates is used, with pros/cons to each method. Also you typically want the shutter on the camcorder set at a multiple faster than you typically use, to reduce motion blurring

Not sure how to improve "homebrew" audio capture without specialized equipment or optical scanning methods; maybe some others have suggestions

[theewizard]

play it on the PC using VLC player NOT windows media player

there are 'adjustments' that can be made in settings for VLC, but i don't think there is anything that can change focusing, on playback
although thee might be a sharpeing filter in vlc settings

[Brad]

It looks like the ripoff artists who did your transfer used VHS or another analog tape format as an intermediate step.

There's nothing wrong with telecine. It's not outdated, at least as far as Hollywood is concerned. It can be applied in several ways. If it's done by setting a flag in the MPEG rather than hard-coding, the clip would physically have fewer frames and would be a smaller file.

I said telecines, as in the physical machines that Hollywood used before the changeover to film scanners. I wasn't referring to 3:2 pulldown.

[VideoChunkster]

Yes, you adjust the audio in a NLE or audio editor

Are you in Aus ? 50Hz region ?

What kind of projector do you have? Is it variable speed ?

e.g if you can project at 25 (adjust until there is no flicker) and record at 25 fps, that will minimize or eliminate flicker. The main problem is a mismatch between projector shutter blades vs. your camcorder's shutter. eg. If you run the projector at 18fps, but record at 25fps or 50fps with 1/50,1/100 shutter, there will be unevenly "spaced" frames along with a camera shutter mismatch . Or if you can do 16 2/3 fps, that works ok with a 720p50 as well ( you have triplicates, which are easy to process)

Getting a 1:1 copy is important if you have other processing to do. Things like temporal filters, denoisers, don't work as well if you have a blended or duplicate frames version. But if the intended goal is 25 fps PAL DVD, then you have to decide on which method to get from 18 fps to 25 fps . Usually some method or combination of blending or duplicates is used, with pros/cons to each method. Also you typically want the shutter on the camcorder set at a multiple faster than you typically use, to reduce motion blurring

Not sure how to improve "homebrew" audio capture without specialized equipment or optical scanning methods; maybe some others have suggestions

Thanks so much for all the help. The Chinon projector I have has 18 and 24 fps speed. Yep in Aus. Im using a Samsung HD F90 for recording. After many test attempts it looks good, I just have to size it right on the zoom with the projector the right distance, I don't want to lose ay of the viewing screen, or make it too small that I have a partial screen.


@ vaporeon800

Yes I wondered about that line. Tried the dvd on my hdtv and sdtv there was no line, played on laptop and I see that line, looks a little similar to running the projector in reverse but that cant be the case because when I do that theres no sound. If they used vhs before putting it through onto dvd then I got screwed in like 5 different ways on this lol. They say on their site its a 2 step process, maybe they use vhs as one of the steps .

Im defently disappointed but they will refund the money next week. So with your guys help I can learn a lot about the proper processes, get a better quality transfer and have a bit of fun with it as a side project. Many thanks.

Matt

[VideoChunkster]

Looks like the footage I am capturing on my cam is mp4, so im a little confused that if I want to run some de-flicker plugins I have to convert to avi. Am I right in assuming quality would be lost if I do that?

Thanks,

Matt

[VideoChunkster]

I got deflicker working after making the files AVI, tried window size 8, softening between 8-10. Doesn't seem to be making a difference with the flicker.

[poisondeathray]

Looks like the footage I am capturing on my cam is mp4, so im a little confused that if I want to run some de-flicker plugins I have to convert to avi. Am I right in assuming quality would be lost if I do that?

Thanks,

Matt

You will lose quality if you use lossy compression. If you use lossless compression, then you won't lose quality until you re-encode it with lossy compression after applying a filter

Some people use avisynth to frameserve (e.g. into vdub), and for processing, filtering

I got deflicker working after making the files AVI, tried window size 8, softening between 8-10. Doesn't seem to be making a difference with the flicker.

You might have to play with the settings or use different deflicker plugins (e.g. in avisynth), or some temporal smoothing filters

24p projected and captured by 25p isn't ideal, because in addition to the flicker, you will get a stutter frame (duplicate) each second. You can try to remove the duplicates with various methods

If you post a sample, someone will suggest some software approaches you might use to improve what you have

[Brad]

Before continuing with the projector method I would suggest trying to track down a place in Australia that does good film scans so you can see how best to spend your money/time.

[VideoChunkster]

Before continuing with the projector method I would suggest trying to track down a place in Australia that does good film scans so you can see how best to spend your money/time.

Yeah I hear ya, after this transfer I had done though its kind of left a sour taste in my mouth on whih places are legit. A lot of the ones here don't give much info on how they do it and I don't really want to get suckered again. There is one really good place though, they use the full scanning Hollywood style method. Only problem I would have to send my films interstate and also pay the big money as they use the best method possible.

Don't really have $1,000 to throw out the window.

[aedipuss]

where'd the hour long 8mm come from? consumer cam 8mm only went to 5 minutes.

[VideoChunkster]

where'd the hour long 8mm come from? consumer cam 8mm only went to 5 minutes.

I had 17 reels of 50 ft 8mm film, so around 57 minutes. I had 8 more to get transferred the next time, needless to say I didn't take in the 8 more lol

[Brad]

Yeah I hear ya, after this transfer I had done though its kind of left a sour taste in my mouth on whih places are legit.

There's a place in the states called Pixcel that I was pleased with for 35mm motion picture and slide scanning, but I have no idea how the international shipping would compare to the cost of the Aus service you mentioned.

[VideoChunkster]

Yeah I hear ya, after this transfer I had done though its kind of left a sour taste in my mouth on whih places are legit.

There's a place in the states called Pixcel that I was pleased with for 35mm motion picture and slide scanning, but I have no idea how the international shipping would compare to the cost of the Aus service you mentioned.

After trial and error, so far I am really happy on how these are turning out, the quality and sharpness is much clearer than what I received. Really the flickering is my only obstacle, would like to clean up the film a little but its at least 30% better than their transfer.

Tried MSU deflicker and deflick, not having any luck, the flicker is the same no change for better or worse.

[PGB]

Can you set different framerates on the camera? Is there a fine control on the projector speed?

[VideoChunkster]

Can you set different framerates on the camera? Is there a fine control on the projector speed?

Only the basic 18fps and 24fps unfortunately. I've found it better at 18fps then 24fps, the flicker is just faster on the 24fps but still there. The camera doesn't have adjustable frame rates I don't think.