Connecting VGA port from a TBC to a Video Capture Device.

[musicto]

Hi all, newbie here, so bear with me if I make some ridiculous statements . I'll cut to the chase:

I've been recently in a quest to transfer some VHS tapes to my laptop. After doing some research, the idea behind time base correctors (TBC) has greatly appealed to me. I'll probably get my hands on one TBC, but the biggest problem is that it only has a vga and component ports as outputs.

I was wondering if there is any type of adapter or convertor that would let me transfer from the vga output to the s-video input on a video capture device. That is, vga male (to connect it the output) to s-video male (to connect it to the female input on the video capture device). I don't know if there is a type of adapter/convertor like this that can do the job. What I have seen is a vga male to s-video female cable:

http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=104&cp_id=10430&cs_id=1043012&p_id=...seq=1&format=2

However, I'm not sure that connecting a male to male s-video cable to both females (on the adapter and the video capture device) can work. Mainly because the description of the product has a big warning that I don't know if it applies to me:

Your video card MUST be able to support s-Video or Composite out through it's VGA port. This is known as a TV out function. If you don't know if your video card can do this, then call the card manufacturer and ask them "Does my video card support S-Video or Composite Video out through its VGA port?" If it does, then buy this adapter. If not, then use Product # 4724 http://www.monoprice.com/products/search.asp?keyword=4724

Which leads me to the next question: if the last mentioned method doesn't work, can I transfer from vga to s-video with this convertor?:

http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=101&cp_id=10114&cs_id=1011407&p_id=...seq=1&format=2

Also, I have one last question, in case I can transfer from vga to s-video. Do you recommend at all that I use the deinterlacing function on the tbc. I'm asking because s-video is analog and interlaced (i think?). So if I guess right:
analog from vhs to tbc, tbc deinterlaces, tbc carries progressive signal through the vga cable, but vga pass the signal to the s-video (which is analog and interlaced?), so i guess the video capture device gets an interlaced signal. So because of this, should I allow the tbc to deintarlace at all?

Finally, in which resolution do you recommend I should capture in VirtualDub? From what I have seen on the internet, most people suggest 640x480.

Well I guess that's all. Thanks in advance

[DB83]

Well the only product you have not linked to is the TBC itself.

VGA output on a TBC ? I think not but I would like to see this product before further comments.

[musicto]

Sorry, I forgot the essential thing while typing that post . The TBC is a Kramer VP-721DS Digital Video Scaler (a video scaler does the same thing as a tbc right?). Here is a picture of the back:



Also, I've been reading more about TBCs on the web, and I've seen that there is a series of JVC S-VHS VCRs with a built-in TBC . So my next question would be:

Let's suppose I get my hands on one of those JVC S-VHS VCRs, would I still need a standalone tbc when I transfer my VHS? Is it recommended?

[DB83]

. The TBC is a Kramer VP-721DS Digital Video Scaler (a video scaler does the same thing as a tbc right?).

Wrong. (AFAIK)

I had a quick read of the manual. It looks to me like a video signal converter - take e.g a 800*600 signal and up-covert that.

There does not appear to be anything in this unit which has time-base correction (correct unsteady composite/s-video signals)

There are plenty of topics on here about Pannys and their built-in TBC features. No reason to repeat all that here.

Finally, the unit you were after appears to be discontinued. How much was the sale price? A proper TBC would cost $200-$500.

[sanlyn]

A full frame TBC such as an AVT-8710 or TBC-1000 won't help with VHS, except to defeat Macrovision. DB83 has the right idea. You need a line tbc for analog tape, not a full frame tbc. Find a Panasonic ES10 or Panasonic/Toshiba DVD recorder circa 2002-2005 to use as a pass-thru line tbc. There are many threads about these the forum.

[musicto]

Thanks to both of you for your answers. It really helped me in my decision to not buy that video scaler xD. If I may go more into detail:

I'm specifically trying to transfer some rare anime VHS from Japan that were not never released in DVD.
1- Do commercial VHS from Japan also have Macrovision protection?
2- Would one of those JVC S-VHS VCR with built-in TBC remove Macrovision?
3- Also, I have read that playing a VHS from Japan in a "normal" VCR from America causes the picture to display darker (something about the reference black level in Japan being lower than in North America). So, would "the-not-so-normal" JVC VCR with TBC correct the black level?
4- Due to the JVC S-VHS VCR with built-in TBC having some awesome features, how much would it help having a standalone TBC in getting a better transfer (quality wise)? Or is the JVC VCR just enough?

Thanks in advance guys

[DB83]

1. It would normally say so on the box
2. No. Only a full TBC does that.
3. No. Black level adjustments are for a proc-amp not a TBC
4. see 2. and 3.

[Cornucopia]

In my experienced opinion, to get real good VHS captures, you need to have the capability (not necessarily used every time) of using BOTH a Line TBC AND a Full-frame TBC.

But you ALSO want to avoid unnecessary links in the chain. So you should go:

VHS Composite Out -> Capture Card Composite In

or

VHS S-Video Out -> Capture Card S-Video In

and only add in adapters and/or TBCs when necessary.

BTW, you don't mention which model laptop (that would help a LOT), but I'm thinking maybe you are misunderstood about VGA. It is an OUTPUT-ONLY type of port. You cannot capture in from it.

Now, if you don't have another means of capturing (S-Video IN port, Firewire Port, etc) you will need to get an adapter that provides this for you. You have a couple of different routes you can take here, so get back to us...

Scott

[musicto]

Hi guys, many thanks for your answers. These are my laptop properties (HP Pavilion G6 notebook):

Windows 7 Home Premium 64-bit SP1, AMD Athlon ll P360 Dual-Core Processor 2.30 GHz, 3.0GB RAM, AMD M880G with ATI Mobility Radeon HD 4250

Also, I didn't find the macrovision logo in the VHS boxes, but the only parts written in english (VHS are from Japan) are the usual "Do not copy blah blah blah". So I suppose it should have macrovision.

I'll try to get one of those awesome JVC S-VHS VCRs and a standalone full-frame TBC to do my transfers. I also plan to use the ATI 600 USB card for the means of transferring the signal to the laptop through the S-video input. Then, I'm gonna try to use VirtualDub+Lagarith to capture my uncompressed video. Does this sound logical?

Furthermore, there's one thing that I'm really concerned with. It is with regards to Japan's VHS black levels:



Because of these properties (reference black level in Japan is lower than in North America), the video will look darker in any American VCRs. My next question would be: Is it necessary to buy a proc amp to correct this? Or is there a way that I can indicate VirtualDub that the upcoming signal is NTSC-J and then they can revert the black levels back to its intended state (I really hope so)?

Thanks in advance guys

[Cornucopia]

Many/most Full-frame TBCs include a Proc Amp (if you are looking for a TBC, get one that has that). You can also adjust that in the digital realm, but it's much more appropriate and preserving of the full signal to do it while still in the analog realm. To do it right, of course, you might also need a Waveform monitor (though you could probably get away with using the feature in AVISynth, etc.

You could create an AVISynth script snippet that has the levels readjustment (and just keep it in every script you use, just comment it out when not needed).

Your hardware intentions are now much more in line with decent capping standards! Looks like you've been reading up...

Scott

[musicto]

In case I adjust black levels in the analog realm:

1- From the stuff I've been reading, I would need to increase the brightness in the TBC to fix the black level issue. Is it true (just to be sure xD)?

2- Would the AVT-8710 Time Base Corrector be helpful for this kind of job?

3- Knowing the difference in black levels between NTSC-M and NTSC-J, could you please give me an approximate of by how much would I need to increase the brightness?

In case I adjust black levels in the digital realm:

1- When you refer to the "AVISynth script snippet that has the levels readjustment", you are referring to a post-capture (software, digital) process right? I'll need to read more about Avysinth, because I have almost no experience with encoding programs

Thanks in advance for your help

[DB83]

Although black-level is descibed as 'brightness' a simple correction to brightness will not correct black-level.

I found an interesting write up about the neccessary adjustments here:

http://www.glennchan.info/articles/technical/setup/75IREsetup.html

If an AVT-8710 has these controls then it can do the job.

One thing you have not mentioned is your intended capture device. Any thoughts on this ?

[musicto]

Although black-level is descibed as 'brightness' a simple correction to brightness will not correct black-level.

I found an interesting write up about the neccessary adjustments here:

http://www.glennchan.info/articles/technical/setup/75IREsetup.html

If an AVT-8710 has these controls then it can do the job.

One thing you have not mentioned is your intended capture device. Any thoughts on this ?

I plan to use the ATI 600 USB card as my Video Capture Device, and VirtualDub+Huffyuv (yeahn I changed my mind about Lagarith xD) to capture my uncompressed video. Thank you very much for the link, I'll be sure to read it and post back if some question pop out in my head.

[musicto]

That article is somewhat confusing to me, but I think I'm on the right track xD. First of all, I'll copy the part from the article that applies to my case:

A proc amp is typically a hardware device that adjusts analog levels. One of these can be used to convert black level from 0 IRE to 7.5 IRE. You will need to adjust the video levels as follows:

• Adjust luma gain by 92.5 / 100. This is to compensate for the next step.
• Adjust pedestal / luma offset by +7.5. Luma black level will now be at 7.5 IRE, and white level at 100 IRE.
• Adjust chroma gain by 92.5 / 100. To maintain constant saturation, it is necessary to match the chroma gain to luma gain.

First I tried to understand the definitions of luma, pedestal, and chroma. After reading their definitions I gotta tell you, pedestal is the most difficult thing to understand for me:

Pedestal gets its name from the more or less flat area that occurs in dark areas before the gamma curve kicks in. IOW, it looks like a pedestal.

Then, I started searching, trying to figure out what exactly does luma, pedestal, and chroma affect. Fortunately for me, I found and excellent post in the Restoration section of this forum, here is an excerpt:

Nearly all Proc Amps have adjustments for contrast (video level, luminance), color (chroma level, saturation), and hue (chroma phase, tint). Another important control that is usually present is brightness (black level, setup, pedestal).

After all this information, I came to my own conclusion as to what I need to tweak to adjust the black levels properly:

Adjust luma = Adjust contrast
Adjust pedestal = Adjust brightness
Adjust chroma = Adjust color

Finally, I looked for pictures of the AVT-8710 TBC and I saw that it has the option to configure those paramaters:

[Attachment 13968 - Click to enlarge]

Could you guys tell me if I made the right conclusions (I hope so xD)?

Thanks in advance.

PS: Sorry for double posting, I just did it because apparently editing a previous post doesn't bump the topic.

[usually_quiet]

If you want to use them, the ATI TV Wonder 600 USB has some proc amp controls of its own for brightness, contrast, hue, saturation, and sharpness.