Just captured analog-DazzleHollywoodDVBridge vs Sony miniDV

[TechJunkie]

My friend loaned me his Sony TRV20 miniDV camera to experiment with. A couple of observations:

1 - Using the TRV20 and capturing digital video generated on that camera: the captured DV video seems slightly "washed out" when compared to the TRV20's LCD screen.
2 - Using the TRV20 as an analog to digital conversion appliance: with my analog Hi8 Sony TR81 plugged into the TRV20, the picture on the TRV20's LCD screen is rich but the captured video is slightly washed out - as in #1 above.
3 - Using a borrowed Dazzle Hollywood DV Bridge: When the same video tape used in #2 is played on the same TR81 connected to the Dazzle, the captured DV output is richer in color - similar to the picture on the TRV20's small LCD screen.

What would explain the slightly washed out (or slightly overexposed look) of the captured output of the Sony camcorder. It didn't seem to matter if it was digital source or converted analog source. Is this typical of all digital cameras? Is there an adjustment on the the TRV20 that will adjust the color richness?

I was hoping not have to buy a Dazzle, using instead the analog pass-through capabilities of a digital camcorder.

[gNOMEintheRedHat]

It may just be your friends camera.

I'm currently using a Panasonic PV-DV601 and the colors are ritch and bright.

I used a Sony for a short while but I liked the Pani better.

The Sony had a sharper picture though.

[vhelp]

No, no, he hit right on!!

I was going to post this in another thread anywas. It's the DV codec!!

As I've experimented with such, I've found that if I taped to a miniDV
tape off my Satalete or DVD player, it played with great quality in the
little 2.5" window, AND if connected to a TV set while still playing in the
2.5" window, the TV looks the same, great quality!

But, once you firewire it out to your harddrive (via the DV codec) the
colors ARE washed!! Its the DV codec that's doing the color space
convergence thing. And, you Techjunkie, game those here (exclude
me) the hint. You said that the Dazzle DV Bridge gave you a bit more
richer color. It's all in the codec. period!

The DV codec uses a different color space conversion or values, for what
ever the purpose. I've surfed many places and read up on it, but don't
remember the exact mumbo-jumbo/techy stuff, but something to do w/
the color space values, and why it was chosen for DV media. And, it looks
like it's NOT gonna change. So, expect all your DV footage's colors to
always be washed out, unless those of you that have higher end color
space conversion software included will not suffer this.

You only choise in the matter is to try and jimmy the color with the use of
filter in the encoder, some exaples are TMPG and Virtualdub. It's very
time consuming and hard work, but w/ patience, you can get a little bit
more color out of your DV caps. I've managed to get some decent looking
quality MPEGs going this route. It does add TIME to your encoding though.

Anyways. . .
I've d/l'ed a few and installed them (w/ some trouble) and some worked
ok or slightly better than some of my prev. firewire transfers.

It's definately NOT the miniDV tapes! I'm convensed that it's the
DV codecs that come with your firewire card or your DV cam that's the
culprit. Some DV cam's come with their own DV codec driver for you to
install.

-vhelp

[TechJunkie]

No, no, he hit right on!!

I was going to post this in another thread anywas. It's the DV codec!!

...

It's definately NOT the miniDV tapes! I'm convensed that it's the
DV codecs that come with your firewire card or your DV cam that's the
culprit. Some DV cam's come with their own DV codec driver for you to
install.

Gee, thanks for the post. I'm confused: both the camera AND the Dazzle are connected to the computer using the same Firewire port, using the same software. The phenomenon is the same regardless of the software I use for capturing: Videowave, MainActor or Microsoft's Movie Maker.

[SkinnyDog]

I don't understand this:

[/quote]1 - Using the TRV20 and capturing digital video generated on that camera: the captured DV video seems slightly "washed out" when compared to the TRV20's LCD screen.

Why are you comparing the color of what you record to the colors on the camcorder LCD screen?? The colors on my 2 and 1/2 inch lcd screen don't often equate with the colors in my color viewfinder because of adjustments I make the the brightness control on my SCD screen. I don;t beleive these screens are meant to represent the true colors of what you are taping. They're really there to frame the shot.

Or is the color washout you are talking about related to something else. is it just the way the colors appear on computer??

What happens if you transfer the digital tape to the computer via firewire, edit it without color filters and then transfer back to the camcorder and then play it throgh the tv? Have you seen this written about in any reviews of digital camcorders?

Vhelp, what are you using to edit your video on your computer?

skinnydog

[/url]

[SkinnyDog]

sorry, i messed up the quotes on that last post!!!

skinnydog

[vhelp]

come on Skinnydog,

You know what we're all talking about!

I'm not using anything! I'm simply using either of two methods:
* frameserve via virtualdub
* or, drag into TMPG

either way, to encode they come out washed.
Oh, wait, not even after encoding...
The washed out colors are in the DV avi file after transfer via firewire!

Its the DV codec, i tell ya. And many, many people are starting to find
this out now. I've know this issue with the color washout since the days
of my DC10+ It seems that the DC10+ MJPEG codec is based on this same
color washout, though there were some people here with this card that said
they didn't notice anything. But then-again, I say they just got sooo used
to it, that they forgot there was a color washout. They learned to live
with it, i guess.
Anyways, it's here with DV now. I'd like to point out the it's mostly MORE
noticable when you capture from TV (satalete)
But, when I capture from my ATI-TV Wonder card, man, is the color quality
rich, AND matches the TV's color. I never had to do any color filtering
in ANY of my TV caps using the old ananlog route, except for the DC10+, though
i learned to live with it for a short while.

SkinyDog,
I've noticed that when I play the miniDV tape I just recorded a tv show to,
and I plug it directly to my TV set and play from tape, quality of colors
is perfect! No wash out. But, as soon as I send it via firewire, and I
play the DV avi file in, ie, powerdvd, windvd or view in virtualdub, etc.
the colors are washed out, period!

Question, what is the name of your DV codec? ? ?
I will do a quick search of the filename, and d/l it and see if I get the
same quality as you are. That is, if you ARE NOT getting any color washouts
with your DV codec.

I'm sorry, I fogot what DV cam you are using, and firewire card? ? ?

Thanks for your support.
-vhelp

[TechJunkie]

Skinnydog, you said:

>>Why are you comparing the color of what you record to the colors on the camcorder LCD screen?? The colors on my 2 and 1/2 inch lcd screen don't often equate with the colors in my color viewfinder because of adjustments I make the the brightness control on my SCD screen. I don;t beleive these screens are meant to represent the true colors of what you are taping. They're really there to frame the shot.

Or is the color washout you are talking about related to something else. is it just the way the colors appear on computer?? <<

What I'm really comparing is the firewire-captured DV from the camcorder vs that of the Dazzle. I'm playing both DV files using the latest MediaPlayer/Real Video programs. the Dazzle's colors are rich while the camcorder's are slightly lighter or washed out. It so happens that the contrast between these two converted DV files is similar to the difference between the camcorder's DV output and its LCD screen. The Dazzle converted DV file is more pleasing to the eye.

I'm going to go down a buy a new Sony miniDV camcorder and use its A to D passthrough capabilities to see if the phenomenon I've observed is unique to my friends year old Sony TRV20.

[vhelp]

techjunkie,

yeah, get back to us real quick on this. I did this test on one Sony model
more $$$ brand already, and it came out the same as my Canon ZR-10.

But I would be curious to see if the brand Sony your try does it as well.

So do get back to us quickly.

-vhelp

[SkinnyDog]

Vhelp, actually I don't know what you're talking about because I don't have a firewire card yet. In the past I was using a pinnacle card to do analog capture with power vcr to make vcds but the quality sucked. my current DVD player does not read svcds so i was stuck with mpeg1. I tried some other options and capture programs like puremotions free capture program with the huffy codec but i kind of put everyting off until i purchased a dvd-r or dvd-rw drive. I'm now waiting for the dvd+r/rw to come in April to out to see how compatible it is.

In December I purchased the canon zr-20 (so we have essentially the same one) when my old camcorder died. I've been trying to determine whether to buy a new graphics card with capture options like the ATI 8500dv or just use my camcorder. I've used the dv camcorder to capture to minidv tape only. They look great. I'm trying to decide what firewire card to purchase based on the bundled software. Check out my post here:

[/url]http://forum.vcdhelp.com/viewtopic.php?t=83532[/url]

So now reading about the wshed out colors I'm hesitating and wondering if I should consider something other that my camcorder for capturing. I suppose i could just capture to minidv tape and wait for a better dv codec.

What codec is everyong using? Is it the microsoft dv codec?

Check out this review of vegas video which comments on the mocrosoft dv codec.

http://www.digitalvideoediting.com/2001/12_dec/reviews/cw_vegasvid3.htm#

Skinnydog[/quote]

[TechJunkie]

Okay, folks. Performed a very subjective test: of course, your experience might be different.

Bought a Sony TRV740 D8 camcorder (for 24 hours) and sat it next to my buddy's Sony TRV20 miniDV rig. Using the same Hi8 tape recorded on my Sony TR81, I created four DV files:

1 - Tape played on Sony TR81, piped through Dazzle Hollywood DV-Bridge, connected to my system via Firewire. Rich colors.
2 - Tape played on Sony TR81, piped through TRV20 miniDV rig, connected to my system via Firewire. Colors slightly washed out.
3 - Tape played on Sony TR81, piped through TRV740 Digital8 rig, connected to my system via Firewire. Colors slightly washed out. I could see no difference in the A to D passthrough DV file produced by the Sony miniDV/D8 camcorders.
4. - Tape played on Sony TRV740 D8 rig, connected to my system with Firewire. Colors looked less real than with any of the three above. This convinced me that a D8 player that will play Hi8 is not an option for me.

Remember: same Firewire card, same capturing software, same cables, same TR81, same Hi8 material. Does the capturing software load a different CODEC for each Firewire connected device?

I still have the test DV files. Would trying the Panasonic be a waste of time? (Boy, I sure have a lot of time invested already!!)

BTW, I don't think it matters if you spend $25 or $100 on a firewire card: they all conform to the IEEE-1394 standard.

[wwaag]

Techjunkie

I have a bunch of Video 8 and Hi8 tapes that I would like to archive and create VCDs/DVDs. I bought the Canopus ADVC-100 which, from what I can tell, does a good job of the A/D conversion (I have nothing to compare it against.) I have 3 camcorders and it DOES make a difference which one is used for playback. Actually, the TR-81 (I also have one) seems to do the best. Since VCD/DVD creation still has a lot of problems in terms of quality, I want to archive these old tapes since some of them are at least 16 years old. Thus I need either a D8 or mini-DV cam for recording as well.

Question 1. Have you actually recorded to tape using the the TRV-20 and TRV-740 directly from your TR-81 rather than using the pass-through feature? If so, does it make any difference during playback?

Question 2. (Similar to 1). Have you compared the two when recording DV files directly from your PC?

Any info would be apprected. Thanks in advance.

WW

[TechJunkie]

come on Skinnydog,

You know what we're all talking about!

I'm not using anything! I'm simply using either of two methods:
* frameserve via virtualdub
* or, drag into TMPG

either way, to encode they come out washed.
Oh, wait, not even after encoding...
The washed out colors are in the DV avi file after transfer via firewire!

Its the DV codec, i tell ya. And many, many people are starting to find
this out now. I've know this issue with the color washout since the days
of my DC10+....

NEWS FLASH:

The codec's in the camcorder, at least according to this article.

See this link: http://www.dvcentral.org/qpc.html

The article goes on to explain that DV capture is a misnomer, that a DV with Firewire is data transmission. No capture is going on.

This would explain why the Dazzle is different from the Sony and why the Panasonic camcorder might be different from both.

I started another thread to highlight this revelation.

[Tommy]

Just because two items do the same thing doesn't mean they will be exactly the same. Its sort of like tv. If you have brand a and brand b side by side on the same channel there not going to look exactly alike. Brand b may have more color, etc.....

[TechJunkie]

Techjunkie

I have a bunch of Video 8 and Hi8 tapes that I would like to archive and create VCDs/DVDs. I bought the Canopus ADVC-100 which, from what I can tell, does a good job of the A/D conversion (I have nothing to compare it against.) I have 3 camcorders and it DOES make a difference which one is used for playback. Actually, the TR-81 (I also have one) seems to do the best. Since VCD/DVD creation still has a lot of problems in terms of quality, I want to archive these old tapes since some of them are at least 16 years old. Thus I need either a D8 or mini-DV cam for recording as well.

Question 1. Have you actually recorded to tape using the the TRV-20 and TRV-740 directly from your TR-81 rather than using the pass-through feature? If so, does it make any difference during playback?

Question 2. (Similar to 1). Have you compared the two when recording DV files directly from your PC?

Any info would be apprected. Thanks in advance.

WW

No I have not. Since the A to D conversion would have to take place BEFORE putting it in DV format on the tape, I cannot imagine why it would be any different than what I'm transferring to my PC.

My reasons for going through this drill are similar to yours: I want to archive this precious analog material before it literally "fades away". The target playback format will change over the next few years and I want to be in the position to go there with my archives.

[SkinnyDog]

Maybe it still is the dv codec. this is form thesame site that techjunkie linked to.

http://www.dvcentral.org/wars.html

skinnydog

[TechJunkie]

Maybe it still is the dv codec. this is form thesame site that techjunkie linked to.

http://www.dvcentral.org/wars.html

skinnydog

Yo Skinnydog,

Note that the article states that, if hard cuts are made as an edit, then no CODEC touches the video. In my case, I'm merely playing the various files using Media Player, so the only CODEC's that have touched my video are in the Dazzle or the Sonys.

Do we read this differently? Let me know.

[mabx]

The dazzle Bridge will use the mainconcept DV Codec for capture. This codec will only work with the dazzle bridge unless you download (about $30) the full codec to use with other capture programes.

On my system if I capture DV without going through the Dazzle bridge my system selects the sony DV codec. This capture does not have the same rich colours as the bridge capture.

Try connecting the camera through the pass through port of the bridge to see if it captures with the mainconcept codec

[TechJunkie]

The dazzle Bridge will use the mainconcept DV Codec for capture. This codec will only work with the dazzle bridge unless you download (about $30) the full codec to use with other capture programes.

On my system if I capture DV without going through the Dazzle bridge my system selects the sony DV codec. This capture does not have the same rich colours as the bridge capture.

Try connecting the camera through the pass through port of the bridge to see if it captures with the mainconcept codec

Gave the Dazzle back to my buddy.

Where do you see in the MainActor program the codecs used?

The article I referenced earlier in this thread indicated that NO codec was used in the data transfer and that the only time one would be used is when MainActor, Premiere or some other editing product needed to decompress the DV file to work in its product. Their codec would be used again when the finished edited product was recompressed back to DV.

My belief (for the moment, at least) is that the Dazzle unit itself has a better codec than do the Sony's.

[mabx]

The Dazzle bridge contains an AD/DA chip, this means that when you connect an analog camcorder it converts the analog signal to a DV stream or if you connect it to a DV camera it will produce an analog signal.

The bridge can be used standalone and connected between a tv/vcr and a video camera.

The mainconcept codec does not appear in the list of codecs available in say Vdub and is only used when the bridge is connected to your firewire port. You can get a watermarked version of their codec from their website.

I can capture using the mainconcept programs and scenalyzer Live although software like Vdub, powervcr drops frames like mad the other 2 are stable and I can do around 1hr 40mins multifile capture (win98SE 4gb limit) easily.

I have used the Dazzle bridge for about a year and found a number of workarounds with this device and my system Sony Vaio laptop Win98SE, Lacie Firewire Studio Drive 60Gb.

[vhelp]

SkinnyDog, (and others)

I'll try and help ya out a bit, if I can.

I don't know what you'll be capping off of, being that
you didn't say what you're interests are as far as capping
from what source, ie (Satalete / Cable / VHS / DVD, etc)

I'm gonna try and do a few tests for ya, via my VHS...
ben meaning to give this a try. I'm gonna try a couple of
methods. I will cap (via firewire) and encode, a:

* Method 1 - store bought movie, cap it to miniDV tape, and then
cap from it via firewire to HD, and encode to VCD

* Method 2 - copy from a DVD source to my VHS tape, cap it to
miniDV tape, and then cap from it via firewire to HD, and encode
to VCD

* Method 3 - open to suggestions

Will this help you some??
If you need me to try another idea, you only need to ask.

With a little luck, i'll post my results of both methods.

Thanks for your support.
-vhelp

[TechJunkie]

The Dazzle bridge contains an AD/DA chip, this means that when you connect an analog camcorder it converts the analog signal to a DV stream or if you connect it to a DV camera it will produce an analog signal.

The bridge can be used standalone and connected between a tv/vcr and a video camera.

When the article I refererenced said "the codec's in the camcorder" - http://www.dvcentral.org/qpc.html, I assumed it was referring to the Analog to Digital processor in the camera. The A to D and D to A processes are "coding/decoding" or Codec's, aren't they?

It would appear that the Dazzle's A to D unit is better tuned for color accuracy than that of Sony. I wonder about Panasonic... or JVC...

Anybody do any comparisons?