HF100 clip - pl sidentify

[akkers]

I have some footage from a Canon HF100. I am not sure what settings it was shot in but it looke like progressive but clip properties indicate interlaced. Anyway I have uploaded it in CS4 using interlaced and progrssive projects. Looks ok when editingh but exported footage is jigttery/juddery (motion is like strobe).

00277.MTS

Clip may hev been shogt using cinema setting on HF100. I have heard Canon use some kind of trickery to wrap p footag ein i.

[edDV]

It looks like it was shot interlace 1920x1980 @ 25fps. Make that your project setting and use upper field first. When you encode, also use upper field first.

My guess is you used lower field first. That will cause stuttered motion.

Use mediainfo to get stats on your files, like this

General
ID : 0 (0x0)
Complete name : D:\00277.MTS
Format : BDAV
Format/Info : Blu-ray Video
File size : 4.57 MiB
Duration : 2s 340ms
Overall bit rate : 16.4 Mbps
Maximum Overall bit rate : 18.0 Mbps

Video
ID : 4113 (0x1011)
Menu ID : 1 (0x1)
Format : AVC
Format/Info : Advanced Video Codec
Format profile : High@L4.0
Format settings, CABAC : Yes
Format settings, ReFrames : 2 frames
Codec ID : 27
Duration : 2s 320ms
Bit rate mode : Variable
Bit rate : 15.5 Mbps
Maximum bit rate : 16.0 Mbps
Width : 1 920 pixels
Height : 1 080 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 16:9
Frame rate : 25.000 fps
Color space : YUV
Chroma subsampling : 4:2:0
Bit depth : 8 bits
Scan type : Interlaced
Scan order : Top Field First
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 0.298
Stream size : 4.27 MiB (94%)

Audio
ID : 4352 (0x1100)
Menu ID : 1 (0x1)
Format : AC-3
Format/Info : Audio Coding 3
Mode extension : CM (complete main)
Codec ID : 129
Duration : 2s 400ms
Bit rate mode : Constant
Bit rate : 256 Kbps
Channel(s) : 2 channels
Channel positions : Front: L R
Sampling rate : 48.0 KHz
Bit depth : 16 bits
Compression mode : Lossy
Delay relative to video : -80ms
Stream size : 75.0 KiB (2%)

[jagabo]

Odd. Different decoders are showing the frames differently. When using CoreAVC to decode the video the file appears to have progressive frames (25 fps), encoded interlaced, and plays smoothly (well, as smoothly as any 25p material plays). ffdshow also decodes and plays the video properly. But when using ffmpeg the video it seems to have a mix of progressive and interlaced frames, and frames are appearing in the wrong order.

[akkers]

As I mentioned earlier, this was shot on a Canon HF100 probably in Cinema mode. I believe the Canon Cinema mode shoots in 24p and wraps it in 25/50i somehow. The 24p is to give it a film look, supposedly. But I do not understand why they wrap it in 25/50i and how we are supposed to edit it.

I have tried using a cs4 interlaced upper field field setting and any other combnination but the problem persists.

note: I saw another thing on net as well - the 24p may well be encoded into 25/50i using 2:3 pulldown. The 'remove pulldown' option is greyed out in CS for this clip.

[jagabo]

It's definitely not 2:3 pulldown. And the clip is a little too short to say for sure if it's 24p with a duplicate frame every 24 frames to make 25 fps, but I saw no duplicates. It's almost certainly simply 25p encoded as 25i. Remuxing into other containers didn't help. I think some h.264 decoders simply have problems dealing with the clip. See if you can use a different h.264 decoder.

[Atak_Snajpera]

note: I saw another thing on net as well - the 24p may well be encoded into 25/50i using 2:3 pulldown. The 'remove pulldown' option is greyed out in CS for this clip.

3:2 pulldown is only used in NTSC (29.97fps)

your sample looks like ordinary 25 fps

[jagabo]

3:2 pulldown is only used in NTSC (29.97fps)

Yes. But other pulldown patterns can be used to convert other frame rates. Sometimes 2:2:2:2:2:2:2:2:2:2:2:3 (if I counted correctly!) pulldown is used to convert 24p to 25i. The OP's clip did not have that pulldown pattern.

[akkers]

Lets assume it is straight 25p clip then I should be able to edit in PP cs4. I have tried every combination of project and file interpration and exported but the exported interlace file stutters/judders when played on tv.

It is indeed a 25p in a 25i wrapper then how does PP figure out what is going on?

I have tried converting using tmpgenc but the resulting export still displays same problems.

[edDV]

Lets assume it is straight 25p clip then I should be able to edit in PP cs4. I have tried every combination of project and file interpration and exported but the exported interlace file stutters/judders when played on tv.

It is indeed a 25p in a 25i wrapper then how does PP figure out what is going on?

I have tried converting using tmpgenc but the resulting export still displays same problems.

Most "PAL" camcorder "cinema" modes record 25p but interlace output. They require a simple weave to return to progressive. 25i source will have 50 field per sec sampling so there will be noticeable motion field to field.

In Premiere set a 1920x1080 25p project. After import, change the clip property settings from 25i TTF to progressive frames.

[akkers]

I started a progressive 25p project and loaded the clip and interprepeted it as 25p. I exported to mpeg2 and it still displays teh problkem.

I even frameserved out the project to tmpgenc but still same problem.

[edDV]

Then maybe it is recorded 25i.

[akkers]

I have tried a 25i project as well. Still same poroblem.

[edDV]

I'm out of ideas.

[davexnet]

The ffmpegsource2 has this to say in it's user manual:

• interlaced H.264 is decoded in an odd way; each field gets its own full-height frame and the fieldrate is reported as the framerate, and furthermore one of the fields (odd or even) may "jump around". To get the correct behavior, you can try setting fpsnum and fpsden so that the framerate is halved (may or may not work). This issue is caused by libavcodec.
• Decoding some M2TS files using Haali's splitter will cause massive blocking and other corruption issues. You can work around the issue either by remuxing the file to MKV (using GDSMux (make sure you untick "minimize output file size" in the Global settings tab) or eac3to), or (if you will be doing linear decoding only) by setting demuxer="lavf" in FFIndex and using seekmode=0 with FFVideoSource. The cause of this issue is unknown but being investigated.

However, I used directshow source and it appeared progressive (which seems odd) -
didn't see any combing, nor out of order frames.

[jagabo]

I have tried a 25i project as well. Still same poroblem.

It doesn't matter what project settings you use. The problem is in your h.264 decoder. Use a different one. Or convert the file to a lossless or low-loss all I frame codec before editing.

Your clip, decoded with CoreAVC, then reencoded with x264. Is what you're seeing worse than this?

[poisondeathray]

Describe the problem more clearly; because 25p is supposed to judder as badly as 24p

Or upload a sample of the export

[akkers]

Here is the converted clip:

m277.mpg

I have also installed a demo version of coreAVC. It has made no difference. Is there a better or more suitable h264 codec?

[poisondeathray]

There is nothing "wrong" with it ; by that I mean it's 25p source, 25p export . It's supposed to look like that unless you use better shooting technique

If you want smoother motion , shoot 50i next time , use a stabilizer , tripod, steadicam or similar rig setup

[jagabo]

I have also installed a demo version of coreAVC. It has made no difference.

Just installing CoreAVC isn't going to do anything within your editor. You have to get your editor to use it or use some other software to convert the file.

Your MPG clip looks fine (aside from the low bitrate problems and shaky camera work). Normal 25p encoded 25i. It only has the normal jerkiness of 25p video.

[akkers]

Actaully I cannot upload any of the worst clips because it features a lot of people and I dont want to vilate their privacy. However, the juddering/strobing effect is so bad that the video is unwatchable. THis cannot be right.

[jagabo]

Maybe the MPEG2 playback is bad on your computer. How did my MP4 clip play?

[akkers]

Actaully my mp4 export plays reasonable on the pc. However on the tv the mp4 (h264) clip is very slow and plays like stop motion. THat is really weird.

I will try out your mp4 file next on the tv..

[poisondeathray]

Actaully my mp4 export plays reasonable on the pc. However on the tv the mp4 (h264) clip is very slow and plays like stop motion. THat is really weird.

I will try out your mp4 file next on the tv..

If the TV is the hardware doing the playback , that doesn't necessarily prove or disprove anything

TV's are very unreliable and inconsistent for playback. Different models have different capabilities. Some cannot play some h264 profiles or settings properly

[akkers]

I jyst happened to have the SDHC card intact and inserted it into the HF100 camcorder, connected it to a HD tv via HDMI and played the footage. Blast! The footage plays WORSE than what I have been exporting from pc. Any slight movement in the scene and the pic judders/vibrates like mad - totally unwatchable.

I cant understand why they would let people record in a such a setting because this is absolute garbage and totally unfit for human viewing, unless filming some still life.

Converting to SD - could that be an option?

[akkers]

I just found on the net another guy talking about the problem and here is whatr he has to say. He claims to solve the issue with a small script. Can this script be adapted PAL 25/50i (I am not too hot on avisynth scripts).

"It works! I successfully doubled frame rate of my 30p video clip from HF100 to 60p (more precisely, 29.97 to 59.94 fps), using the program AviSynth 2.5 with MVtools filters installed in AviSynth plugin directory. Here's my AviSynth script, fps.avs, which does the job:

AVISource("f:\00014.avi") # or MPEG2Source, DirectShowSource, some previous filter
super = MVSuper(pel=2)
backward_vec = MVAnalyse(super, overlap=4, isb = true, search=3)
# Use block overlap, halfpixel accuracy and Exhaustive search
forward_vec = MVAnalyse(super, overlap=4, isb = false, search=3)
MVFlowFps(super, backward_vec, forward_vec, num=60000, den=1001)

Here 00014.avi is the 29.97p progressive video (xvid) I made from the original mts file using TMGenc with de-interlacing enforced. Then I loaded the above script into VirtualDub program, and used it to create a new xvid avi file, this time true 60p video, with the frame rate doubling achieved via smart motion compensation algorithm.

The result (1920x1080x60p xvid avi file) looks great - very fluid motions, no strobing at all on my LCD monitor. The video is complex (uneven, from hands, 360 degrees panning, with some fast moving foreground objects - cars), but the software did a great job. Going frame by frame, one can see some introduced artifacts - in front of a very fast moving car (a "motion bubble"). This is not visible when watching the video, as such a fast moving object is already rather blurred. Otherwise, I can't really tell which frames are original, and which are new - which means, that the full HD spatial resolution is preserved in the interpolated frames. It remains to be seen how robust this approach is at the scene changes, and in low light (=noisy video) conditions, it's also slow (1/30 of real time on one core of Duo Core 3GHz cpu) but as a proof of a concept, it is very convincing. Now I feel pretty comfortable shooting all my videos in 30p format, as any time I can recode it to a "video feel" (as apposed to "film feel"), true 60p format. In the future, with faster CPUs and chips inside Blu Ray and media players, such an operation can become common and routine."

Original discussion at http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=15224917

[jagabo]

Yes, that type of motion interpolation works well for some shots (especially panning and shaking). Poorly for others.

Why are you using 60000/1001 as the frame rate? 50 would usually be better for PAL sources.

I'm a bit surprised you're complaining so much about the jerkiness of 25p. Every movie you watch on TV is the same. Though professional movie makers know to avoid certain types of shots.

[akkers]

No, this is not my script; its one I found elsewhere.

I just want some help in amending the script to work with PAL 25fps.

About the movies on tv - yes there is some judder/jerkiness but it is almost unnoticeable. The judder/vibration I am getting is way too much and I cannot expect any human being to sit through and watch it. If I can find a suitable longer clip, I will post it here.

[poisondeathray]

Change it from 60000 and 1001 to 50 and 1

MVFlowFps(super, backward_vec, forward_vec, num=50, den=1)

numerator/denominator

Note that script uses the older mvtools 1.x , mflowfps uses mvtools 2.x (not that there will be much difference in the end)


e.g modified for mvtools2

#whatever source
source=last

super = source.MSuper(pel=2)
backward_vec = MAnalyse(super, overlap=4, isb = true, search=3)
forward_vec = MAnalyse(super, overlap=4, isb = false, search=3)
source.MFlowFps(super, backward_vec, forward_vec, blend=false, num=50, den=1)


You can also try interframe, which adds a few other things
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=160226

[jagabo]

I have a variation that doubles the frame rate of a video:

function DoubleFPS2(clip source)
{
 super = MSuper(source, pel=2, hpad=0, vpad=0, rfilter=4)
 backward_1 = MAnalyse(super, chroma=false, isb=true, blksize=16, searchparam=3, plevel=0, search=3, badrange=(-24))
 forward_1 = MAnalyse(super, chroma=false, isb=false, blksize=16, searchparam=3, plevel=0, search=3, badrange=(-24))
 backward_2 = MRecalculate(super, chroma=false, backward_1, blksize=8, searchparam=1, search=3)
 forward_2 = MRecalculate(super, chroma=false, forward_1, blksize=8, searchparam=1, search=3)
 backward_3 = MRecalculate(super, chroma=false, backward_2, blksize=4, searchparam=0, search=3)
 forward_3 = MRecalculate(super, chroma=false, forward_2, blksize=4, searchparam=0, search=3)
 MBlockFps(source, super, backward_3, forward_3, num=2*FramerateNumerator(source), den=FramerateDenominator(source), mode=0)
}

DirectShowSource("filename.ext")
DoubleFPS()

That uses the newer MvTools 2.5.11.3 and produces cleaner results with most videos.

http://avisynth.org.ru/mvtools/mvtools2.html#download

One reason you want to exactly double the fps is so that every other frame is from the original video, only the in-between frames are synthesized. Attached is a 50 fps version of your video using the above script. Though with a low motion clip like this the difference isn't very visible. Also attached is a 50 fps version made by duplicating frames (ChangeFSP() in AviSYnth).

[edDV]

No, this is not my script; its one I found elsewhere.

I just want some help in amending the script to work with PAL 25fps.

About the movies on tv - yes there is some judder/jerkiness but it is almost unnoticeable. The judder/vibration I am getting is way too much and I cannot expect any human being to sit through and watch it. If I can find a suitable longer clip, I will post it here.

All the movies are shot from solid tripods or Steadicam rigs. If you want to shoot hand held, use 50i (50 motion samples per sec).