Vegas 10 crashes 10x daily

[and]

So i just want to know if i am the only one having issues - or if it is common for vegas to crash while playing back multiple avchd streams.

I shot video of my band with 5 camcorders at 17Mb/s (high, but not full res... not that it would be clear anyway in low light) and it all went into a vegas timeline and multicam track just fine, but now that I am editing I have to save every 30 seconds because vegas crashes (screen goes white-ish, window pops up after 10 sec saying "vegas pro has stopped working") i can restart the program by clicking the file i saved, but once this starts it doesn't ever stop. I have edited 6 songs, but we played 18. help.

I have an i7 8gb ram 500gb internal hdd (mostly empty) two 3tb external usb 2.0 and usb3.0 drives for footage, Asus Nvidia GeForce GT240 with 1gb ram, windows experience 5.9 for the primary hdd, but 6.6 for graphics and 7.6 for ram and processing power. Do i need a ssd for vegas to handle multi-cam avchd?

Looking forward to replies!

[edDV]

So i just want to know if i am the only one having issues - or if if it common for vegas to crash while playing back multiple avchd streams.

I shot video of my band with 5 camcorders at 17mb/s (high, but not full res... not that it would be clear anyway in low light) and it all went into a vegas timeline and multicam track just fine, but now that I am editing I have to save every 30 seconds because vegas crashes (screen goes white-ish, window pops up after 10 sec saying "vegas pro has stopped working") i can restart the program by clicking the file i saved, but once this starts it doesn't ever stop. I have edited 6 songs, but we played 18. help.

I have an i7 8gb ram 500gb internal hdd (mostly empty) two 3tb external usb 2.0 and usb3.0 drives for footage, Asus Nvidia GeForce GT240 with 1gb ram, windows experience 5.9 for the primary hdd, but 6.6 for graphics and 7.6 for ram and processing power. Do i need a ssd for vegas to handle multi-cam avchd?

Looking forward to replies!

You are doing all this off one internal drive? It doesn't sound like Vegas is crashing, it is choking probably from disk thrash. 5 video source + temp files +Windows activity all on one drive. On top of that you are trying to decode 5 AVCHD streams to RGB in real time.

First add additional internal drives. If adding a second drive (HDD or SSD*), put video and "Prerendered files folder" (tmp) on this drive to separate video access from Windows activity. If you add more disks, spread source video to minimize disc seeks.

Next look at CPU load. You would be much better off capturing to a digital intermediate like Cineform Neoscene to reduce decode load on the CPU.


* Your need is faster access to source video and pre-rendered files so put the SSD or RAID as an additional drive, not as the OS drive. BTW USB drives won't help much because USB disc controllers are software processes. Internal drives use the bus mastered hardware SATA disk controllers. External eSATA drives will use the hardware disk controllers same as internal drives.

[aedipuss]

just to add to eddv i'd ditch the external usb drives and get esata drives. usb is controlled by the cpu and can be interrupted easily. esata uses the sata controller and won't be affected by heavy cpu use.

[edDV]

Multi-camera mode can put multiple source files into locked sync so the disk/CPU load increases lineary with number of active cameras. If the cameras are all on the same drive, seek times become the limitation.

[deadrats]

excellent advise so far, i would just add that for your particular use, i wouldn't consider a traditional hard drive, i would only be looking at ssd or a 10,000 rpm hdd; a 60-64gb ssd will set you back about $110, a 600gb 10k rpm WD will set you back about $300, that same $300 will get you two 120gb OCZ ssd's, in my opinion this is the best way to go for your workload.

[budwzr]

Update your graphics card driver.

[and]

Thanks everyone for the advice. I recently updated my graphics drivers to no avail, but since I currently have the footage on a usb3.0 drive, let's hope an SSD (or 2) might be the trick. This option has been on my mind as something that may solve long rendering times & rendering failures for heavily color-corrected/effects laden footage. I'm glad to have the support of some forum-users before making a $300 guess based on intuition.

My motherboard supports the 6GB/s version of SATA (3.0) so should I be looking at something like this http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820139601 come black Friday?

I chose that drive to link to b/c it had the least reviews saying that it failed after a few days/weeks.

I saw the comment about getting 2 ssd's - would one be for the OS+programs and the other for footage? Would there be much benefit to splitting footage up onto 2 drives? It seems like it might not be worth splitting up footage if the program+os were still running on my old hdd.

Thanks.

anD

[deadrats]

I saw the comment about getting 2 ssd's - would one be for the OS+programs and the other for footage? Would there be much benefit to splitting footage up onto 2 drives? It seems like it might not be worth splitting up footage if the program+os were still running on my old hdd.

it doesn't matter where your app and OS reside, with 8gigs of ram the active parts of vegas are probably running from ram as is the OS kernel, it's the read/writes associated with editing the video that will choke your pc, as such getting 2 SSD's and setting using one as source and one as target would be your best best, i would also keep your page file off the read/write drives as you don't want anything interfering with the editing.

[and]

Thanks deadrats,

What you wrote makes perfect sense for exporting.

I am usually experiencing these crashes during playback/editing in multicam mode - before I get a saved copy to export. Based on what you advise, would keeping the tiny .veg save files on my current c: drive hdd (where the page file is) be fine as long as the footage I'm editing is on SSD? Or is that the issue.

Will that 2nd SSD make a difference if I keep the project .veg file there (and/or other files I am overlooking/unaware of) - while leaving the OS and Vegas on the current HDD (as really they are in RAM when running so the slow internal SATA hdd is the best place to keep 'em - as long as I add other SATA drives)?

I appreciate you helping me get to the bottom of this.

[edDV]

Start with a single SSD configured as a second drive to hold the source files and Pre-rendered files folder. The Vegas Pre-rendered file folder (Premiere call it the Scratch Disk) is not the Windows page file. It contains pre-rendered transitions and filtered clips so looks to the encoder like additional source files. The more you pre-render clips for preview (composites, color correction, other filters) the faster the encode will go but also the more space these files will take on your SSD. Monitor disk usage.

The access speed is needed mostly for editing preview. With effects laden material, final rendering and encoding will proceed slowly so a destination SSD probably won't help encode times. A hard drive will be fast enough. If you later determine the destination drive is the bottleneck, you can deal with that later.

If your CPU is a timeline bottleneck due to multiple AVCHD decodes, consider a digital intermediate (DI) to speed timeline performance. A DI will expand source files about 4x-6x so a larger SSD or two will be required to hold source and the PFF. Or you can edit in segments for long shows.

[edDV]

Thanks deadrats,

What you wrote makes perfect sense for exporting.

I am usually experiencing these crashes during playback/editing in multicam mode - before I get a saved copy to export. Based on what you advise, would keeping the tiny .veg save files on my current c: drive hdd (where the page file is) be fine as long as the footage I'm editing is on SSD? Or is that the issue.

Will that 2nd SSD make a difference if I keep the project .veg file there (and/or other files I am overlooking/unaware of) - while leaving the OS and Vegas on the current HDD (as really they are in RAM when running so the slow internal SATA hdd is the best place to keep 'em - as long as I add other SATA drives)?

I appreciate you helping me get to the bottom of this.

The *.veg file contains Project parameters, not media. The Pre-rendered Files folder contains video in your project format. Here is a quick DV project example. If your project is AVCHD, these files will be much larger.



These files are generated for transitions, composites or other filters.

[and]

Thanks eDV,

I am used to the apple intermediary codec when using fcp to work with avchd. Are you saying that there is a way to import avchd in vegas so that all the .mts files are joined into a DI that's a better format for editing? If so please link info and I'll be sure to check it out.

Editing in segments is good advice. I've started doing that to help Vegas crash less on performances where we used 7 cameras or all my cams recorded at 24mbps - just one song at a time copied into new projects helps a bit for sure.

[and]

Great call edDV - so that's part of what I was missing this time around. The pre-rendered files.

Are they saved in the "Temporary Files Folder" defined in >Options>Preferences>General [Tab] (lower part of the page) or somewhere else?

I don't typically pre-render much just doing straight cuts trying to get thru footage fast lately, saving often and hoping it doesn't crash... but if transitions get saved there, putting general footage on one ssd and defining the prerendered files folder there too (or on a 2nd drive) could help. Still leafing the .veg saves on the OS hdd makes sense then.

[edDV]

You set the PFF in the project settings. It defaults to the C drive.

You can modify project settings with the arrow top left on preview window.

[edDV]

Thanks eDV,

I am used to the apple intermediary codec when using fcp to work with avchd. Are you saying that there is a way to import avchd in vegas so that all the .mts files are joined into a DI that's a better format for editing? If so please link info and I'll be sure to check it out.

Editing in segments is good advice. I've started doing that to help Vegas crash less on performances where we used 7 cameras or all my cams recorded at 24mbps - just one song at a time copied into new projects helps a bit for sure.

See Cineform Neoscene $129 list.
http://www.cineform.com/neoscene/

You cap to the app, then edit in the digital intermediate. Timeline performance and rendering are improved. Filtering is better because the intermediate is 4:2:2 10 bit similar to ProRes422 on FCP. Cineform uses wavelet compression which helps resize and transform quality. Trade off is file size.

It also does a great telecine to 24p extraction for HDV or AVCHD.

Cineform is cross platform so will work in most editors.

[budwzr]

So i just want to know if i am the only one having issues - or if it is common for vegas to crash while playing back multiple avchd streams.

No, it's not common at all, but overloading the timeline is probably the cause, and that's not a good way to work in general, for ANY software application. You wouldn't do that in a photo editor or graphics program right? You save along the way. That's a no brainer.

Normally large projects are done in phases, and built up in layers. Remember, you're not working in film so generation loss is virtually zero when you render out to high bitrate .MXF.

Use the Sony .MXF preset that matches your project. The reason FCP uses an intermediate is because Apple doesn't support what's going on in the real world, and FCP isn't robust enough to handle H.264 natively like Vegas. Also, it's just easier for Apple to do it this way to cut down on tech support calls.

P.S. If you can manage to choke Vegas on an i7 with 8 gigs of ram, that's a pretty amazing feat. Hahaha

[and]

budwzr,

I think i just have a knack for expecting too much... if vegas says it will handle up to 99 video streams I don't intuitively understand why it chokes on 5. Not to get too off topic, but I crashed (over and over for 3 days) a new over-spec'd macbook pro with nothing else on it but the then new Aperture photo database software while trying to load the images from my former photo library managed by Google's (extremely fast and robust) Picasa. I expected that since I paid for 'pro' photo software it would do better than the consumer-level freebies then, and I guess I still do now with video.

So moving forward,

Is it best to import the 5 separate 1 hour-long avchd streams using the device explorer in vegas (so there are no gaps), align, make a multicam track of the video, save, and break off 5 minute or-so songs one at a time, copy to new projects, and edit from there?

The frustration here is usually resetting audio levels on each new project, and if I use noise reduction on a camera's whole video track (rather than just a clip) for a show I have to re-do that in each project/song. Perhaps all that can wait til the end...

I've never used .MXF as a format because I've always gone straight from avchd to DVD, blu-ray, or .mp4 using h.264 for web. Is there a way to get my .MTS files imported as .MXF right off the bat? I'd been using the "device explorer" to get the video clips out whole from the nasty avchd structure - BUT for instance in my current project I don't have the "playlist" folder from the avchd structure - just "stream" and "clipinf" so if there is another way to get WHOLE video clips besides the "device explorer" I'd love to be enlightened - especially if I come out in something easier on my editing system like .MXF

It looks like neoscene might do something like this. If I learn to use it properly it could help decode the 30p I set my canon hf s20 cams to record in from the 60i AVCHD package they are saved within (that vegas seems to mix up when slowing footage down). I read that it is best to shoot in 60i and convert to 24p later - i suppose neoscene would be the app for that - vegas doesn't seem to like the 24p stuff (again, especially when slowed down - I get ghosts).

[budwzr]

Here's my best advice:

Throw all your video on a single track and choose "render to new track", that will automatically choose MXF for you. Then stop and save the project.

Then open a new project and load up your MXF, do your color corrections, then render out again, same as above.

Then open another new project and do your editing. Make subclips of your edits and that will speed things up too. Make a bin for them so you don't get confused.

If you keep pre-rendering and building up incrementally, you always have saved projects to fall back on, and your work will get easier and faster as you get close to final.

If you're going to use interpolated effects, or compositing, these are best done when everything is pre-rendered.

Vegas Pro is a powerful program, but even the most powerful pickup truck cannot pull a stump out of the ground without some shovel and chainsaw work ahead of time. Know what I mean, Vern?

[edDV]

Several new issues to complicate the edit.

1. Camcorder frame rate.

Your choice of frame rate influences everything later in the edit.

60p - best for hand held and high action. Not compatible with Blu-Ray at 1080p.

60i - next best for hand held and the default

30p recorded as 60i - jerky motion and requires camera stabilization.

24p recorded as 60i - jerky motion, requires camera stabilization and requires inverse telecine for a 24p timeline. In Vegas, 60i telecine can be edited directly as 60i, but for a 24p timeline, inverse telecine needs to be done before import.


2. AVCHD standard

The AVCHD standard uses the highly compressed h.264 codec. Playback and scrubbing on the timeline are heavily computational. An edit program will first reference I frames at half second intervals when locating an edit point. Inside the GOP a full decode is required. As you scrub to an edit point you are asking the edit software to decode h.264 at faster than 1x rate. This will near max your CPU even for one clip. If you apply a filter such as noise reduction, the CPU needs to add that to the processing load. If you add transitions or layer multiple camera shots, you will eventually max out the CPU and everything bogs down, even with an i7. The only way to proceed is to pre-render the difficult areas.


3. Why the pros don't edit AVCHD.

Most pro formats don't use GOPs. They are all I frame. At the top end, all video on the timeline is fully uncompressed. This requires sophisticated RAID servers to handle the 3 Gbit/s rates for each 1080p source. When you have such a set up, you can scrub the timeline (yes even in theory 99 layers) without any CPU activity.

Most can't afford the luxury of uncompressed editing. Next best is a digital intermediate like Cineform or ProRes422. These are designed for low CPU usage but at the expense of bit rate. AVCHD uses only 3 MB/s at 1x play. Cineform uses 10 to 24 MB/s at 1x play speed. A typical internal hard drive can handle ~60 MB/s. But going back to the scrub example, a 4x speed scrub will bring a 60 MB/s hard disk to its knees. If your video sources are layered or in a transition, the hard drive will have difficulty at lower scrub speeds. This is where an SSD or simple RAID will help when you layer up sources.

So you can see editing layers requires a balance of disk speed and CPU loading. A good digital intermediate allows performance`optimization. Cineform goes further by using all I frames with 4:2:2 wavelet compression for greater processing precision.


3. Editing workflow

A multicamera concert shoot can be edited in various ways. The most simple is single layer fast cuts. Vegas' multicamera mode allows you to flatten several tracks to one layer for simple cuts between multiple sources. When you scrub through the timeline, all sources are put into motion. This means all AVCHD tracks are being decoded in parallel. This explains why your CPU is bogging down to a stop. Since AVCHD requires only 3 MB/s (24 Mb/s) at 1x speed, 4 layers only demand 12 MB/s from the drive. You can even scrub at 5x and only demand 60 MB/s.

A digital intermediate will reduce the decode load on the CPU but will load the drive with more bitrate demand. This is where a Raptor, SSD or simple RAID can improve scrub performance.

A good policy is to get your rough cut edits done before adding transitions or filters. Those will further load the CPU and force prerenders before 1x preview is possible.

For more advanced layered editing, Vegas allows you to expand your single multicam layer back into four separate tracks. This allows layered composites or other filters to be applied.

The above is a simplified approximation of what goes on in an editor like Vegas.

[edDV]

Is it best to import the 5 separate 1 hour-long avchd streams using the device explorer in vegas (so there are no gaps), align, make a multicam track of the video, save, and break off 5 minute or-so songs one at a time, copy to new projects, and edit from there?

The frustration here is usually resetting audio levels on each new project, and if I use noise reduction on a camera's whole video track (rather than just a clip) for a show I have to re-do that in each project/song. Perhaps all that can wait til the end...

That may help when doing the initial cuts, then you can later combine the projects to apply filters and sound sweetening.

I've never used .MXF as a format because I've always gone straight from avchd to DVD, blu-ray, or .mp4 using h.264 for web. Is there a way to get my .MTS files imported as .MXF right off the bat? I'd been using the "device explorer" to get the video clips out whole from the nasty avchd structure - BUT for instance in my current project I don't have the "playlist" folder from the avchd structure - just "stream" and "clipinf" so if there is another way to get WHOLE video clips besides the "device explorer" I'd love to be enlightened - especially if I come out in something easier on my editing system like .MXF

"Sony MXF" is the XDCAM HD EX 35 MPeg2 codec. MXF is a wrapper.

This would be sort of a half step to a digital intermediate since MPeg2 decodes easier than h.264 but it is still 15 frame GOP based. A true DI would be all I frames.

To use "MXF" as an intermediate, import each file using Device Explorer, then encode each to Sony MXF separately. Then import these files into a new project.

[edDV]

It looks like neoscene might do something like this. If I learn to use it properly it could help decode the 30p I set my canon hf s20 cams to record in from the 60i AVCHD package they are saved within (that vegas seems to mix up when slowing footage down). I read that it is best to shoot in 60i and convert to 24p later - i suppose neoscene would be the app for that - vegas doesn't seem to like the 24p stuff (again, especially when slowed down - I get ghosts).

I suggest you shoot either 60i or if you must 24p. 60i will be better for slowing down footage.

If you set the camera to 24p, it records it as 60i with telecine. Neoscene will extract fields into 24p frames for the digital intermediate. Then you would set your Vegas project to 24p (23.976 actually).

[budwzr]

"MXF" can be a variety of codecs, there's a 422 in there too.

Anyway, I'm not a pro, and edDV is way more knowledgeable. My advice assumes that you're not trying to produce a top notch crystal clear "documentary" of a band performing.

I assume that you're going to be making a LOT of fast cuts, bling transitions, motion graphics, etc.

The broadcast industry is still getting used to this stuff, and trying to hold on to their sacred cow, with all its strict rules and regulations, but video is getting edited much "hotter" then what they consider professional.

I watched a show last night that had so many jump shots, gradient transitions, and even cheesy snowy TV type stuff, that I almost got seasick.

[edDV]

"MXF" can be a variety of codecs, there's a 422 in there too.

True, MXF is just a wrapper. XDCAM HD 422 uses 50 Mb/s bit rate. You can also put standard def DV (4:1:1), IMX (MPeg2 4:2:2) or uncompressed in an MXF wrapper.

Another way to speed up the timeline is convert to 1920x1080 60i to 1280x720 60p. This keeps 60 frames per second but removes the deinterlace load on the CPU. Vegas does a good 60i to 60p downscale.

[and]

Thanks so much for writing this all out in plain English. I appreciate all the comments on this thread.

Basically, I am trying to get through edits without crashes. I have vegas 'selectively' pre-rendering everything on one machine tonight, and the other machine is batch exporting just to compare results. It's the MXF pre-render as recommended for the in-progress live music and a NTSC Widescreen Batch export for a wedding that will go to DVD and I doubt blu-ray, but I've archived the avchd footage just in case.

For Vegas to see any performance benefit from a 1920x1080 60i to 1280x720 60p conversion do I have to render all files, or is just changing the project settings enough?

It sounds like shooting in 30p is... useless? I was under the impression that shooting this way would make stabilization work better without getting weird interlacing moire-like looks to shakier sections. I guess I should just stick to the 60i until export, or at least shoot full 60i, then down convert to 1280x720 60p, then edit, then stabilize? So far I've been leaving everything in the avchd 60i format until it is done, then rendering finished products to 1280x720 30P for the web, or NTSC DV Widescreen for DVD. Is 60p incompatible wtih blue-ray 1080P because blu ray players do 60i OR 24P or does it have to do with the 59.97 vs true 60 fps thing? My canons shoot 60i, 30p in a 60i stream, 24PF (telecine) or 24F (true 24P) and from 5 to 24 Mbps, but I don't notice much a difference between the 17Mbps and 24Mbps footage... and perhaps I could even go lower for sure to be DVD final projects, but I don't know how to figure that out, so I stick with 17 because it matches my sony pure 60i cams.

I'd like to work in a format that won't overload my CPU - but since I don't have any ssd raid or even fast esata hdds yet perhaps I just need to figure out the final format I want each project to be in and render all the video into that format before starting a complex multicam edit? I am hoping I guessed right on the above MXF intermediary for a web product and DV for a DVD. If not I'll try again tomorrow.

[budwzr]

"Selective pre-render" makes a bunch of chunks around 25 MB average. Not too fun to edit.

Shooting in 1080 vs. 720 has to do with how much resolution do you need in the raw footage, just like a still image. Are you going to pan around in it? Or zoom? or crop? In a 720p project, then, with 1080 footage, you can do all these things without disturbing existing pixels.

The way stabilization works has to do with rotation and zooming/cropping of the frames to create the illusion of stability. Most times you can do a better job yourself using the pan/crop tool and keyframes.

Think of project settings as a theoretical "goal", that you're giving Vegas guidance in what direction to work toward. In Vegas, you're never locked in to anything, but your specific editing might lock you in.

[and]

Right, I used to use pan and tilt to stabilize myself before the automatic option existed. I always shoot in 1920x1080 60i (but experimented with the 30p option in-camera trying to figure out why some stabilized clips would look jarring due to the interlacing in the final product).

I suppose that even though I typically output a 1280x720 30p movie for the web I must have the wrong idea about something in my 1920x1080 60i project properties to be experiencing these issues. I tried "blend fields" as a deinterlace method so as to not loose pixels, but I guess that may be the cause of the ghosting, especially with slowed down footage - unless there could be another setting I messed. With deinterlace method in the settings set to "none" I get moire on stabilized footage. With the project properties set to a different pixel count or height/width I think I got that moire look sometimes too, especially with fast motion. I'll switch to "interpolate" and take the pixel loss unless there is a better option.

I used to set up projects with properties matching my "goal" but found more problems, so now I make the settings match what I am getting out of my camera (except I use 8 bit pixel format instead of 32-bit floating point until I am done editing to save my processor the work).

[budwzr]

So your issue now is getting a good deinterlace? Did you try turning off resampling? That should get rid of the ghosting.

I never used 60i, because that's for broadcast. I only work in 720p30/60. You might have to deinterlace outside Vegas with VirtualDub. But anyway, I have to defer that issue to someone else that knows better.

I do shoot 1080p30 occasionally, because it can be cropped and not get fuzzy, and it's easier to stabilize, because you have room to slide the crop box around and thus avoid zooming.

Vegas has a switch to "conform media to project settings", that might be messing you up too.

[and]

I think I let the thread get a little off topic trying to think of other issues that might cause Vegas to tax my system in one way or another to the point of the program hanging and having to be run again using my last save file. I will start a new post about deinterlacing issues on stabilized media once I feel I have a handle on this crashing issue (which happens most of the time on multitracked AVCHD footage with no stabilization or effects).

It sounds like the way to go is import form as many cams as I can plug in using multiple instances of vegas to combine the multiple .mts files on each camera into sensible clips on my external USB 2.0 HDDs, where I can leave a them as back-up archives that won't take much space. Once that finishes I should render complete time-lines with a few markers from each instance of vegas to a SATA hdd or ssd using "Sony MXF XD 1920x1080 60i (35VBR)" as an intermediate format. Now close everything, restart, and open the MXF files on the sata disk in a new vegas project, multicam edit, and export the finished project back to the external USB drive for archival (and as a place to upload from/ make a DVD from, whatever), being able to delete the big MXF files after each project is delivered approved, or just completely done.

Am I missing anything? (still not sure if multiple fast hdds or a big ssd is best... leaning towards the biggest ssd I can afford - but if anyone wants to chime in again pre-black-friday/cyber-monday I would appreciate it)

Is there much difference in using just Vegas to do all this rather than importing with neoscene using cineform codecs? It sounds like if I want to manipulate footage during editing I should just keep it all 1080i60 'til the final export... and even then I may not see detect much quality difference or time savings. Thanks all!

[budwzr]

The thing is, Vegas only references the source files, doesn't actually load them. It builds a database file. There shouldn't be any load on your CPU except for the preview window, which should be set for "Preview-Auto". This setting allows Vegas to scale down the preview quality when there's a CPU load.

Your problem of crashing probably has something to do with the source media, more specifically the decoder being used. Maybe a Quicktime issue. When you click on one of the videos to bring it into Vegas does it identify it as a Sony AVC file? Or a QT file?

Usually people add more performance hardware to speed things up, not so much to solve crashes.

[and]

I thought about this and updated Quicktime just in case a few weeks back... but it didn't help since the files I have are all 15GB~ish .mts (that's what Vegas makes when you import avchd using the device browser - basically it combines the 2GB-limit files found on the camcorder/SD card without the few dropped frames one would get by just copying the smaller files onto a folder on the hdd and dragging onto a vegas timeline).