Capture Hi8 via a digital camescope and firewire

[SearchQuality]

I have Hi8 tapes recorded in the 90s. As a one-off job I want to copy the footage from these tapes onto hard disks. The camcorder that recorded these Hi8 tapes is still operational. It gives output as composite video/audio and as s-video. Now my present computer has an MSI mobo with integrated Firewire. As a capture possibility I can pass the old camcorder composite output to my new camcorder, which records on MiniDV and from the new camcorder use firewire to capture the footage on my computer. This may work but will probably drop a lot of frames. What else can I use? Proposals are wellcome.

[edDV]

It should work without dropping frames. Just capture to a second drive (not the OS drive).

What is the camcorder model?
Still using that Pentium 2400 (2.4GHz)?

[SearchQuality]

Original camcorder: Sony CCD-TRTR805E PAL, New camcorder: Sony DCR-TRV33E
PC: Intel core i5-2500K LGA1155, Motherboard MSI P67A-GD65, Graphics N550GTX-TI, Hard disk 2 Terrabytes 720 rpm SATA Western Digital

[2Bdecided]

If the new camcorder had S-video input (and built-in TBC - as some do, even without saying), it would be ideal. With just composite, you're not preserving the full quality that's on the original tapes. It's can be close, but there can be some rainbowing / fuzziness on sharp edges/details/patterns, and general loss of sharpness - depending on how well the camcorder separates out luma and chroma from composite.

As edDV says, you shouldn't be dropping frames with DV-AVI - it's only 25Mbps. You could capture it with 0 dropped frames on a 1990s 1.2MHz machine! You might need to kill virus checkers, auto updates etc while capturing if they interfere.

Cheers,
David.

[edDV]

Original camcorder: Sony CCD-TRTR805E PAL, New camcorder: Sony DCR-TRV33E
PC: Intel core i5-2500K LGA1155, Motherboard MSI P67A-GD65, Graphics N550GTX-TI, Hard disk 2 Terrabytes 720 rpm SATA Western Digital

The DCR-TRV33E is listed as having S-Video+audio inputs. Use those instead of composite for better quality.

If just one drive, shut down other apps (except capture program -- WinDV recommended).

[SearchQuality]

Yes indeed the new camera has s-video port. I can use the s-video for video input and the composite for audio. I assume the new camescope's role in this set-up is simply to convert the signal and pass it to the firewire port of PC. It does not store anything.

[mufunyo]

I would recommend finding a Digital8 camcorder at a thrift store or borrowing one if you know anyone who has one. Most of them can play back analogue Video8 and Hi8 tapes, and have a direct FireWire output. It would probably save you a lot of noise and composite video artefacts. I recently obtained a Sony TRV120 for free, so it shouldn't be hard to find one cheap.

[edDV]

Yes indeed the new camera has s-video port. I can use the s-video for video input and the composite for audio. I assume the new camescope's role in this set-up is simply to convert the signal and pass it to the firewire port of PC. It does not store anything.

Most Sony MiniDV cams have the analog pass through feature. If yours doesn't, you need to record to MiniDV tape as an intermediate step.

[SearchQuality]

Checking the user manual of DCR-TRV33E I read the following "You can capture images and sound from an analog video unit connected to a computer which has the DVD port via your camcorder". This practically says that the DCR-TVR33E can be used as a pass through device. From the responses received until now I understand that the procedure I envisaged should work. Any other suggestions are welcome. As for me it is time to get to work and try it. I shall of course report back results.

[SearchQuality]

I have tested the following configuration:
Sony CCD-TRTR805E PAL in VTR mode playing the Hi8 mm tape is connected to Sony DCR-TRV33E through S-Video and audio of composite white, red cables. Sony DCR-TRV33E has no tape, is in VCR mode and is connected to PC via firewire. DV-IO is running on the PC. With this configuration I managed to capture all frames ie 0 dropped. Thanks to everyone who joined this discussion.

[turk690]

I have tested the following configuration:
Sony CCD-TRTR805E PAL in VTR mode playing the Hi8 mm tape is connected to Sony DCR-TRV33E through S-Video and audio of composite white, red cables. Sony DCR-TRV33E has no tape, is in VCR mode and is connected to PC via firewire. DV-IO is running on the PC. With this configuration I managed to capture all frames ie 0 dropped. Thanks to everyone who joined this discussion.

Just curious: did you capture to a physically separate second hard drive or to the existing system drive C: ??

[SearchQuality]

Presently I have one physical drive of 2 Terrabytes. On this drive I have four logical drives one of them being the system drive C. I captured to one of the other logical drives. Before the capture operation I stopped the antivirus program.

[edDV]

A modern computer, say Core2 duo up, can manage capture to the C drive so long as you limit other apps access to the same physical drive. A DV Firewire "capture" is a data stream to file operation not an OS protected file copy.

[SteveCA]

I also have about 100 hours of Hi8 to capture. I have several options:

I have a canopus ADVC300 and a sony DCR TRV10 camcorder. My Hi8 camcorder has s video output. I presume that the Canopus would do a better job than a pass through the camcorder right?

My second question has to do with the file codec captured using these options. I presume that the files are DV avi. If so, I will have the same problem I currently have with my captured DV tapes, in that there are no hardware players that will play the files from the hard drive. Is there a way to capture the Hi8 tapes into a current supported format like mkv or whatever else you folks would recommend? I'd like to avoid the hassle of capturing and then converting all the files, unless there is some advantage to having DV avi files in addition to the newer supported files formats..

[edDV]

I also have about 100 hours of Hi8 to capture. I have several options:

I have a canopus ADVC300 and a sony DCR TRV10 camcorder. My Hi8 camcorder has s video output. I presume that the Canopus would do a better job than a pass through the camcorder right?

Usually the ADVC will do a better job with levels if set right. Also has a line TBC and proc amp controls.

My second question has to do with the file codec captured using these options. I presume that the files are DV avi. If so, I will have the same problem I currently have with my captured DV tapes, in that there are no hardware players that will play the files from the hard drive. Is there a way to capture the Hi8 tapes into a current supported format like mkv or whatever else you folks would recommend? I'd like to avoid the hassle of capturing and then converting all the files, unless there is some advantage to having DV avi files in addition to the newer supported files formats..

DV yes and DV (Quicktime in your case) makes the best archive format for your interlace Hi8 tapes.

Two pass is normal but you can batch convert to other formats for players. I recommend you archive as DV format.


PS. It would also be possible to capture DV to a file and real time encode h.264 at the same time but this would require a very fast computer. MPeg2 less so. But not on your Mac. You can do this on a fast Windows machine.

[SteveCA]

Thanks for the quick reply. I am capturing using the canopus and the video looks pretty good. It is being captured in Windows Live Movie maker which allows for changes to the file info. I was most interested in changing the time shot so that it can be found on a calendar indexing set up like that found on Sony PMB and windows live. The wife would never be able to find it if it were'nt for the calendar function. I checked the properties and it seems like it is being captured in .avi format. Is it safe to assume that windows is capturing the files in native format based on this? I dont want to capture in anything that is re-encoded to preserve quality.

My PC is pretty new and fairly fast, but I'm assuming not fast enough to simultaneously capture and re-encode to h264 or some other player friendly format. Do you know the minimum specs that is needed on the PC? Lastly, what file format do you recommend converting to from DV avi to, in order to retain as much quality as possible? Sorry for all the questions?

[edDV]

Thanks for the quick reply. I am capturing using the canopus and the video looks pretty good. It is being captured in Windows Live Movie maker which allows for changes to the file info. I was most interested in changing the time shot so that it can be found on a calendar indexing set up like that found on Sony PMB and windows live. The wife would never be able to find it if it were'nt for the calendar function. I checked the properties and it seems like it is being captured in .avi format. Is it safe to assume that windows is capturing the files in native format based on this? I dont want to capture in anything that is re-encoded to preserve quality.

Why does your profile say you are on a Mac? I had to go back and edit all that.

On the Windows platform, the ADVC stream is captured to a DV-AVI file. I've never used Win Live Movie Maker for capture so I don't know. Usually there is no re-encode when capturing a DV stream to DV-AVI file but it can be done as an advanced trick. The two step process is better for quality and allows for non-realtime filtering.

[edDV]

My PC is pretty new and fairly fast, but I'm assuming not fast enough to simultaneously capture and re-encode to h264 or some other player friendly format. Do you know the minimum specs that is needed on the PC? Lastly, what file format do you recommend converting to from DV avi to, in order to retain as much quality as possible? Sorry for all the questions?

I only use hardware h.264 encoding to do this. A fast Windows machine can cap and software encode to h.264 but there are many quality issues such as deinterlace or inverse telecine (maybe GPU hardware assist will help someday). Mainconcept has a good real time MPeg2 encode module that works OK for SD but I don't have enough CPU to attempt this at HD.

For the civilian, look at Hauppauge HD-PVR for real time analog component to h.264 hardware encoding.

[SteveCA]

My PC is pretty new and fairly fast, but I'm assuming not fast enough to simultaneously capture and re-encode to h264 or some other player friendly format. Do you know the minimum specs that is needed on the PC? Lastly, what file format do you recommend converting to from DV avi to, in order to retain as much quality as possible? Sorry for all the questions?

I only use hardware h.264 encoding to do this. A fast Windows machine can cap and software encode to h.264 but there are many quality issues such as deinterlace or inverse telecine (maybe GPU hardware assist will help someday). Mainconcept has a good real time MPeg2 encode module that works OK for SD but I don't have enough CPU to attempt this at HD.

For the civilian, look at Hauppauge HD-PVR for real time analog component to h.264 hardware encoding.

Thanks a bunch. I do use a Mac but also have a fairly new PC at my disposal. I used it to capture HDV using hdvspilt, DV and now Hi8. I need to convert the DV avi. It will not stream to my new Panasonic Plasma. I have to connect a PC to the TV using hdmi in order to watch the videos on something other than a PC screen. I want to be able to connect it to a WD live player for my wifes parents so that they can see the grandchildren on these DV avi videos. They are too old to figure out the PC route.

[edDV]

My PC is pretty new and fairly fast, but I'm assuming not fast enough to simultaneously capture and re-encode to h264 or some other player friendly format. Do you know the minimum specs that is needed on the PC? Lastly, what file format do you recommend converting to from DV avi to, in order to retain as much quality as possible? Sorry for all the questions?

I only use hardware h.264 encoding to do this. A fast Windows machine can cap and software encode to h.264 but there are many quality issues such as deinterlace or inverse telecine (maybe GPU hardware assist will help someday). Mainconcept has a good real time MPeg2 encode module that works OK for SD but I don't have enough CPU to attempt this at HD.

For the civilian, look at Hauppauge HD-PVR for real time analog component to h.264 hardware encoding.

Thanks a bunch. I do use a Mac but also have a fairly new PC at my disposal. I used it to capture HDV using hdvspilt, DV and now Hi8. I need to convert the DV avi. It will not stream to my new Panasonic Plasma. I have to connect a PC to the TV using hdmi in order to watch the videos on something other than a PC screen.

Think of DV as what is called a digital intermediate format (but at SD resolution). It is intended to capture in high quality for 2nd step editing or to apply image filters with minimal loss. When finished, the user encodes to a target distribution format.

Although it would have been possible for media players to process DV format for display, they chose not to probably because of royalties on DV decoders. So in summary, capture to DV gets you high quality but when finished one must encode to a distribution format. Note that quality loss is a given during distribution encoding unless TLC (tender loving care*) is used.

I want to be able to connect it to a WD live player for my wifes parents so that they can see the grandchildren on these DV avi videos. They are too old to figure out the PC route.

How will they view the files? DVD player? Youtube?

For WD player, I vote for interlace DVD format. Also works for DVD players.

Interlace DVD format = MPeg2, 720x480 29.97 interlace bottom field first. The more bit rate the better the quality. Max it around 9500 Kbps CBR with 224 Kbps stereo audio (AKA one hour mode).

*a reality tech term

[SteveCA]

I'd like to buy them a WD live plus and use it to play the videos which will be on a hardrive. I have alomost to 2 TB of videos that I want them to be able to view. Most of it is DV avi and the rest is m2t files captured from HDV

[edDV]

I'd like to buy them a WD live plus and use it to play the videos which will be on a hardrive. I have alomost to 2 TB of videos that I want them to be able to view. Most of it is DV avi and the rest is m2t files captured from HDV

What is your editing/encoding software?


I suggest Sony Vegas Movie Studio Platinum 10 or 11.

[SteveCA]

I'd like to buy them a WD live plus and use it to play the videos which will be on a hardrive. I have alomost to 2 TB of videos that I want them to be able to view. Most of it is DV avi and the rest is m2t files captured from HDV

What is your editing/encoding software?


I suggest Sony Vegas Movie Studio Platinum 10 or 11.

For editing, I have Final Cut Pro and imovie. I dont have any real editing software on my PC other than Picture Motion Browser and windows live movie maker. I dont plan on editing the stuff for my in laws. They can use the fast forward button.

[2Bdecided]

...I have almost to 2 TB of videos that I want them to be able to view... I dont plan on editing the stuff for my in laws. They can use the fast forward button.

You honestly think they're going to sit down and watch 170 hours of home movies?!?

You wicked son-in-law!!!

Seriously though, skipping through hundreds of hours of footage will be clunky and tiresome. No matter how cute the subject matter is, I think they'll give up.


But if you must give them the whole lot, I agree with edDV: DVD standard MPEG-2 is the way to go here I think. You could do better (HQ double-rate deinterlacing, x264 etc), but I don't think they'll live to see the results.

Cheers,
David.

[SteveCA]

David,

Thanks for the suggestions. They wont watch 170 hours, I only have about 140 hours lol... I am a wicked son in law though!