VHS to DVD, no Picture Noise. Remuxed it, now it DOES have Picture Noise

[VideoFanatic]

My problem is just as the title says. Let me explain:
I had some NTSC format 480i, 4:3 aspect ratio VHS videos which were taped over 15 years ago. They were transferred to DVD but for some reason hiss which wasn't in the tape was then in the DVD. This seems to be quite a common problem but it's not what I'm asking about. Here's the history of the edits I did:

• I muxed the DVD to MPEG 2. That was the only way I could get the file so I could fix the audio.
• I demuxed it using tsMuxer (it said it didn't have a valid FPS field so it automatically changed the frame rate to 29.970) so I could access the audio file so I could remove the hiss.
• I then muxed the audio and video files into a TS MPEG 2 file using tsMuxer.
• I then edited (muxed) the video, removing the commercials that I didn't want.
• I now have a fully compliant MPEG 2 file which plays perfectly. The audio is perfect and the video is uncompressed at approximately 4.5 Mbps which is around the same bitrate that commercially available TV series in the 4:3 aspect ratio come in. The video plays perfectly, full screen in Windows Media Player on my 1080p PC monitor. I could even connect my PC to my 37" 1080p TV via a HDMI cable and it would still look almost as good.
• If I now take the MPEG 2 and make a fully compliant DVD (still just muxing) and play it on my PS3 via a component cable then the picture isn't very good on my TV - I have picture noise and a bit of interlacing.

If I just watch it on my TV via a HDMI cable (instead of component) in 480p then the picture immediately gets better even though I didn't turn on any special features. However the problem is that I still have picture noise. I can try and describe it as if someone had compressed a 4.5 Mbps video into half that bit rate - you see a black cross pattern whenever there's lots of action on screen (it's obviously not as bad as that - I'm just using it as an example). I also have a bit of flicker on the edges of objects. I can fix those problems because the PS3 has the following options:

• Frame Noise Reduction: This option lets you reduce the mosaic like block noise displayed on screen.
• Block Noise Reduction: This option lets you reduce the fine noise (grit) displayed on screen.
• Mosquito Noise Reduction: Lets you reduce the so-called "mosquito noise", or flicker, that appears on the edge of visual images while watching standard DVDs.

I turned all of those onto the maximum settings and it fixed the problem for DVDs. However the PS3 does not allow you to apply those filters to Blu-Rays. I wanted to share my DVDs and BluRay videos (my BluRays are the same 4:3 aspect ratio videos as before) with people and not everybody has a PS3.

So my questions are:

1. Why does my edited DVD have that picture noise when the original DVD did not? It's not like I actually re-encoded anything, I just muxed the video.
   .
2. Do all or most (half decent) BluRay players have a picture noise reduction feature like the PS3? If so, does that work on Blu-Rays and DVDs or just DVDs? I've looked around the web but BluRay players only say that they have the noise reduction feature - they don't say if it works on BluRays as well as DVDs or not. I suppose I could live with it if it just worked on DVDs.
   .
3. If they don't then could you please suggest a program that will fix this picture noise. I use VideoRedo for all my muxing but it's de-interlacing option didn't work. I know I'll have to re-encode but it's better than watching crap quality videos.

[hech54]

I'm not sure you know what the words demuxed and remuxed actually mean.

[VideoFanatic]

I do, I just used the wrong word. I've now changed all mentionings of "remux" to "mux"

[jagabo]

the video is uncompressed at approximately 4.5 Mbps which is around the same bitrate that commercially available TV series in the 4:3 aspect ratio come in.

Commercial DVD releases don't start with noisy VHS tapes. All the noise in VHS tapes will require more bitrate than the clean sources that studios use.

Can you post some samples? Use DgIndex to demux short segments of the MPG and VOB files.

Deblocking is a normal part of h.264 decoding. So all Blu-ray players will deblock h.264 encoded video.

[hech54]

I do, I just used the wrong word. I've now changed all mentionings of "remux" to "mux"

Demux means separating the video from the audio(leaving you with two streams - one audio, one video).
Remux(or muxing) obviously means the exact opposite.

Now....you say you started with a DVD of a VHS tape....your first sentence says I muxed the DVD to MPEG 2 ....so how did it become demuxed in the first place?

[VideoFanatic]

[QUOTE=jagabo;2106858]

the video is uncompressed at approximately 4.5 Mbps which is around the same bitrate that commercially available TV series in the 4:3 aspect ratio come in.

Commercial DVD releases don't start with noisy VHS tapes. All the noise in VHS tapes will require more bitrate than the clean sources that studios use.

Can you post some samples? Use DgIndex to demux short segments of the MPG and VOB files.

Deblocking is a normal part of h.264 decoding. So all Blu-ray players will deblock h.264 encoded video.

In your first sentence, were you referring the the picture noise? If so, remember I said that the original DVD (which was converted from VHS) did not have the picture noise when I played it on my TV without the PS3's noise reduction filters applied. It was perfect quality so wasn't the 4.5 Mbps bit rate the correct bit rate to use?

The PS3 is a bluray player and it does not get rid of the picture noise on a 4:3 480i TS Blu-Ray disk created with TSMuxer. But then again I just gave it an MPEG2 file. Should I give it a TS h264 file instead?

I also tried using an MPEG2 with multiAVCHD but I get the same picture noise problem. It seems to use MPEG2 m2ts not m2ts h264.

• How long a clip do you want?
• I can use VideoRedo to mux a 2 minute clip from the DVD or do you want me to use DgIndex which I'm unfamiliar with?
• Should I upload it to this forum?

[VideoFanatic]

I do, I just used the wrong word. I've now changed all mentionings of "remux" to "mux"

Demux means separating the video from the audio(leaving you with two streams - one audio, one video).
Remux(or muxing) obviously means the exact opposite.

Now....you say you started with a DVD of a VHS tape....your first sentence says I muxed the DVD to MPEG 2 ....so how did it become demuxed in the first place?

I had a DVD. I wanted an MPEG2 of it. There was only 1 title on the DVD, so I just opened the Title in VideoRedo and selected QuickStream Fix. That basically combines all the VOBs into an MPEG2 file. It only takes a few minutes to do this so it doesn't recode, it re-muxes. If you know of a word which better describes this process then please let me know!

[jagabo]

How long a clip do you want?

Enough to verify there is no difference from the original DVD to whatever you made from it.

I can use VideoRedo to mux a 2 minute clip from the DVD

VideoRedo will be fine. 10 seconds or so should be enough. If you keep the clips under 30 MB you can upload them directly to the forum.

[hech54]

If you know of a word which better describes this process then please let me know!

https://www.videohelp.com/glossary?D#Demultiplex,%20Demultiplexing,%20Demux,%20Demuxing
Splitting the video and audio to separate files. Also called "Demux".

[VideoFanatic]

If you know of a word which better describes this process then please let me know!

https://www.videohelp.com/glossary?D#Demultiplex,%20Demultiplexing,%20Demux,%20Demuxing
Splitting the video and audio to separate files. Also called "Demux".

But that wasn't what I was doing. Surely I was Muxing like I said in the first place? I was joining the VOB files from the DVD into a single MPEG2 file with VideoRedo:

https://www.videohelp.com/glossary?M#Multiplex,%20Multiplexing,%20Mux,%20Mux ing

Multiplex, Multiplexing, Mux, Muxing
Joining video and audio to one file. Also called "Mux".

[hech54]

If you know of a word which better describes this process then please let me know!

https://www.videohelp.com/glossary?D#Demultiplex,%20Demultiplexing,%20Demux,%20Demuxing
Splitting the video and audio to separate files. Also called "Demux".

But that wasn't what I was doing. Surely I was Muxing like I said in the first place? I was joining the VOB files from the DVD into a single MPEG2 file with VideoRedo:

https://www.videohelp.com/glossary?M#Multiplex,%20Multiplexing,%20Mux,%20Mux ing

Multiplex, Multiplexing, Mux, Muxing
Joining video and audio to one file. Also called "Mux".

WRONG. Muxing is joining two elementary streams(one audio, one video). VOB files are NOT elementary streams....they already contain video and audio streams in one "package".

[VideoFanatic]

WRONG. Muxing is joining two elementary streams(one audio, one video). VOB files are NOT elementary streams....they already contain video and audio streams in one "package".

Sorry then, it was an easy mistake to make. I'm sure you knew what I meant though. Maybe you could rephrase your glossary from this:

Multiplex, Multiplexing, Mux, Muxing
Joining video and audio to one file. Also called "Mux".

To this:

Joining a seperate video and audio file into one file. Also called "Mux".

[VideoFanatic]

VideoRedo will be fine. 10 seconds or so should be enough. If you keep the clips under 30 MB you can upload them directly to the forum.

Actually I found out that the original DVD (which had hiss in) and my file (that I removed the hiss from) are identical. I can get the same good picture on both of them as long as I turn on the noise reduction filters on the PS3.

So basically my problem now is that I can't get a good picture on BluRays (4:3 480i MPEG2 files) with the PS3. This is because the picture filters only work with DVDs on the PS3. Jagabo, you mentioned that you only get those filters on BluRays that have h264 video. I made a M2TS h264 video which was identical in visual quality to the original but the picture quality is the same - I still have the picture noise. I also tried the following formats but got the same result:

.h264 M2TS
.h264 TS
MPEG2
MPEG2 M2TS
MPEG2 TS

I've uploaded a 2 minute sample of the video that I use to make my DVDs and Blu-Rays with here: Video


So I'm left with 2 questions:

1. Do all or most (half decent) BluRay players have a picture noise reduction feature like the PS3? If so, does that work on Blu-Rays and DVDs or just DVDs? I've looked around the web but BluRay players only say that they have the noise reduction feature - they don't say if it works on BluRays as well as DVDs or not.

2. If they don't then could you please suggest a program that will fix this picture noise. I use VideoRedo for all my muxing but it's de-interlacing option didn't work.

[jagabo]

Jagabo, you mentioned that you only get those filters on BluRays that have h264 video. I made a M2TS h264 video which was identical in visual quality to the original but the picture quality is the same - I still have the picture noise.

I was speaking specifically about deblocking, not noise reduction. Deblocking is a mandatory feature of h.264 decoders.

1. Do all or most (half decent) BluRay players have a picture noise reduction feature like the PS3?

No.

I use VideoRedo for all my muxing but it's de-interlacing option didn't work.

You should not deinterlace for DVD or Blu-ray. DVD players, Blu-ray players, TVs all support interlaced video. You just have to make sure you author the DVD properly -- make sure the video is flagged as interlaced and the field order is correct.

2. If they don't then could you please suggest a program that will fix this picture noise.

There are lots of options for noise reduction. You have to be careful though. It's easy to overdo it. You can end up with everybody looking like mannequins, wooly sweaters that look like satin shirts, a stucco wall that looks perfectly smooth, weird artifacts where different parts of people faces move at different speeds, etc. And since your video is already MPEG 2 compressed you will get another round of compression artifacts.

Neat video for VirtualDub can work pretty well. AviSynth has lots of options like McTemoralDenoise(), MSmooth(), and fft3d().

Your sample looks like typical VHS captured by DVD recorder. Lots of noise, poor black level, lots of macroblocking.

[VideoFanatic]

Thanks very much for all your help. I'll try those tools you suggested.

I only tried the deinterlacing method in VideoRedo when I noticed that the DVDs had visible interlacing. You mentioned "make sure the video is flagged as interlaced and the field order is correct". I presume you mean with the original source video? Or can I take the DVD I have and author it again with those options to deinterlace it?

You said that all Blu-Ray players have deblocking as it's a required standard. Could you please give me a link to a page which confirms this as I've never seen that mentioned anywhere. Could you also please give me a link to a page which describes what deblocking is.

So do all BluRay players not have noise reduction filters or is it just the ones I mentioned?

I didn't actually record these videos myself, I bought them off someone else. They had really bad hiss which take me about an hour (per video) to remove using an audio program. So now I just need to find a way to fix those picture problems I mentioned before. So thanks again for your help.

But what do you think caused those picture problems and the hissing noise. The videos were recorded off the TV onto VHS then transferred to DVD. You mentioned poor black level and macroblocking - what do those mean? It's not like the videos have any protection in the first place - they were recorded off the TV.

[themaster1]

H264 has and in-loop deblocking filter which is used during encoding and decoding stages unlike mpeg2.That's one of the many reasons h264 is better than mpeg2.

Can you upload a sample of your video for a better understanding of the problem, thank you

[jagabo]

You mentioned "make sure the video is flagged as interlaced and the field order is correct". I presume you mean with the original source video? Or can I take the DVD I have and author it again with those options to deinterlace it?

Interlaced frames contain two images each, intended to be viewed separately, one after the other. One image is contained in all the even numbered scan lines, the other in the odd numbered scan lines. Each of these half images is called a field. The field order can be either even field first, or odd field first (often called top/bottom instead of even/odd, or even A/B, 1/2, etc.).

Your original video is interlaced, top field first. All your processing should take that into account and your final output should retain those properties. If you do that your DVD player, Blu-ray player, and TV will handle the video properly during playback.

You said that all Blu-Ray players have deblocking as it's a required standard. Could you please give me a link to a page which confirms this as I've never seen that mentioned anywhere.

Deblocking is required by the h.264 specification.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H.264/MPEG-4_AVC

Could you also please give me a link to a page which describes what deblocking is.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deblocking_filter_%28video%29

An extreme example of blocking artifacts (from over compression with Xvid):


After deblocking (with Xvid's optional deblocking filter):


h.264 deblocking will not remove blocky artifacts that are in the source video (maybe occasionally by happenstance). Those are considered part of the picture by the encoder. It will in fact attempt to retain the blocks. So you should remove them before encoding.

So do all BluRay players not have noise reduction filters or is it just the ones I mentioned?

Denoising, sharpening, deblocking of MPEG 2, are all optional features for Blu-ray players and TVs.

But what do you think caused those picture problems

Noise is inherent in VHS tape. Too much compression caused the blocking.

and the hissing noise. The videos were recorded off the TV onto VHS then transferred to DVD.

VHS can have two audio tracks: a low-fi mono track and a hi-fi stereo track. If the hiss wasn't in the original broadcast then the guy who converted to DVD probably used the mono track instead of the stereo track. Is the audio lacking in high frequencies too? Sound a bit muffled?

You mentioned poor black level and macroblocking - what do those mean?

Black level is a measure of how black the darkest parts of the picture are. The darkest part (overall, not necessarily every shot) should be black, not gray. Original image on the left, more appropriate black and white levels on the right:



Notice how the dark areas are now black and there is a little more detail in the bright areas.

Macroblocking refers to the blocky artifacts covered earlier.

[VideoFanatic]

AviSynth has lots of options like McTemoralDenoise(), MSmooth(), and fft3d().

I've got TMGEnc Video Mastering Works 5. It seems to support AviSynth avs scripts as I put a crop test file in it and it did the crop.

Could you please provide me with the script code I need for those filters you suggested.

[jagabo]

WhateverSource()
McTemporalDenoise(settings="medium")

You can look up the details yourself. Be sure to download the filters, the other filters that they require, and install them all. They're all documented. For example:

http://avisynth.org/mediawiki/MCTemporalDenoise

Required Filters

Note: You do not necessarily need all of these filters for this script to function for you. There are special modes that enable the use of specific filters at specific times, but these are only used when necessary. Just to be safe, make sure you have all of the filters listed below in you "Plugins" folder.

• MVTools (v2.5.10) http://avisynth.org.ru/mvtools/mvtools2.html#download,
• MaskTools (v2.0a43) http://manao4.free.fr/masktools-v2.0a48.zip,
• LSFmod (v1.9) http://avisynth.org/mediawiki/LSFmod,
• FFT3Dgpu (v0.8.2.7) or FFT3Dfilter (v2.1.1) http://avisynth.org.ru/fft3dfilter/fft3dfilter.html,
• TTempsmooth (v0.9.4) http://avisynth.org.ru/docs/english/externalfilters/ttempSmooth.htm,
• RemoveGrain + Repair (v1.0PR) http://home.arcor.de/kassandro/prerelease/RemoveGrain-1.0.rar,
• Deblock (v1.2) http://avisynth.org/mediawiki/DeBlock,
• Deblock_QED (25.may.2010) http://avisynth.org/mediawiki/Deblock_QED,
• DctFilter (v0.0.1.4) http://avisynth.org/mediawiki/DCTFilter,
• EEDI2 (v0.9.2) http://web.missouri.edu/~kes25c/EEDI2v092.zip,
• SangNom (v1.0beta) http://avisynth.org/mediawiki/SangNom,
• GradFun2DBmod (v1.5) http://avisynth.org/mediawiki/GradFun2DBmod,
• GradFun2db (v1.0) http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=108681,
• AddGrainC (v1.5) http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=111849.

[VideoFanatic]

It took me a whole day to get all the filters that McTemporalDenoise needed due to there not being clear instructions of which .dll files to copy into the plugins. Anyway I got them all but when I loaded my .avs script into TMPGEnc Video Mastering Works 5 I get the following message (the message was so small that I couldn't make out all the words but I think this is what it said):

This is not a YV12 clip. Please convert color space to YV12 before using MCTemporalDenoise
(MCTemporalDenoise.v1.4.20.avsi line 474)

I looked in that file and this is what's on line 474:

Assert(isYV12(i) == True ? true : false, chr(10) + "This is not an YV12 clip ! Please convert color space to YV12 before using MCTemporalDenoise()" + chr(10))

So does this mean that 1 of the filters that MCTemporalDenoise uses, only works with YV12 files?
If so do you know which one it is and can I disable it if it's not required to do what I want?

I only want to remove the macroblocking and I want to do de-interlacing and colour fixes.

[jagabo]

Add ConvertToYV12(interlaced=true) right after opening the source.

[VideoFanatic]

Thanks, it's working now. My file is chroma: 4:2:0. Isn't that already YV12?

[jagabo]

The MPEG decoder and AviSynth will negotiate a colorspace. Depending on the settings of the MPEG decoder it may not get YV12 even if the MPEG file uses 4:2:0 subsampling internally.

I recommend you simplify your script and work on one thing at a time.

First get the video opened. For an MPG source I recommend you use DgIndex to build and index file (.D2V) then use Mpeg2Source() in AviSYnth. Install the DgMpegDec package. Put DgDecode.dll in your AviSynth plugins folder. Then try this script:

Mpeg2Source("I:\New\1 = Test files\Test File RAW December 30 1997.d2v")

If you save your D2V file somewhere else be sure to change the path. Assuming that works, add Info() to your script:

Mpeg2Source("I:\New\1 = Test files\Test File RAW December 30 1997.d2v")
Info()

When you open that you should see some information overlaid onto the video. It will tell you what colorspace the video is in. Assuming it's YV12, change your script to:

Mpeg2Source("I:\New\1 = Test files\Test File RAW December 30 1997.d2v")
McTemporalDenoise(settings="medium")

If you didn't put all the required filters in your AviSyth plugins folder you'll need to manually load each one:

LoadPlugin("C:\Path\to\MvTools.dll")
LoadPlugin(etc)
Mpeg2Source("I:\New\1 = Test files\Test File RAW December 30 1997.d2v")
McTemporalDenoise(settings="medium")

The advantage of putting all your filters in the plugins folder is that they load automatically every time AviSynth is used, you don't have to load them manually in your scripts. The disadvantage is that the all load automatically every time AviSynth is used -- ie, it takes AviSynth longer to start up.

Unfortunately, McTemporalDenoise() is one of the hardest filters for a beginner to start with because of all the other required filters.

You might try using AVSP to edit your script. It provides a little help.

[themaster1]

For deblocking i recommend deblock QED and for infos on the filters (what color space they use, .dll etc here (for deblock qed or here more generally

In your place i would do the filtering in this order: deblock, color correction, deinterlace, denoise

If that can help you

[poisondeathray]

@holygamer - Don't deinterlace if you are going to DVD or Blu-ray . You won't see the combing lines on a DVD or blu-ray player, and motion will be smoother which is important for sports and wrestling

@themaster1 - You can call deblock_qed within MCTD if you wanted to . deblock=true uses "normal" deblocking , but useQED=true calls deblockQED and is applied before the denoising, and can be controlled with quant1=, quant2=

[VideoFanatic]

I tried this:

DirectshowSource("I:\New\1 = Test files\18 seconds test file.mpg")
ConvertToYV12(interlaced=true)
McTemporalDenoise(settings="medium")

I took a whole day to install McTemporalDenoise but it didn't get rid of the blocking! Does it matter if I use TMPGEnc Video Mastering Works 5 or not or should I use a different program. All I need is a front-end for AviSynth so I can get the video converted with the filters applied.

For deblocking i recommend deblock QED and for infos on the filters (what color space they use, .dll etc here (for deblock qed or here more generally

Could you please tell me what code to use for that script. The instructons on that page you mentioned are unhelpful. I have some 15 year old wrestling footage recorded on 4:3 480i VHS which was transferred to DVD. I then losslessly converted the DVD to an MPEG2 - which is the file I'm working with. It has blocking that I want to remove.

[jagabo]

I took a whole day to install McTemporalDenoise but it didn't get rid of the blocking!

Of course not. It's not a deblocking filter, it's a noise filter. If you use Mpeg2Source() you can enable it's deblocking filters.

Mpeg2Source("filename.d2v", CPU=6)

[themaster1]

I then losslessly converted the DVD to an MPEG2

vhs -> mpeg2 = not lossless

Try the default values first which are:
Deblock_QED(24,28,uv=3)
If not good you'll have to experiment with the aOff1,aOff2 values (read the doc)

I suggest you use histogram(mode="luma") at the end of your script while you're trying to find the best values to deblock it correctly, that'll help grately.

Something like that:

MPEG2Source("C:\MyVideo.d2v", info = 3)
input=last
Deblock_QED(24,28,uv=3)
StackHorizontal(input, last)# for comparison before /after
histogram(mode="luma") # for luma mode

[VideoFanatic]

I think you misread what I said. I never said VHS to MPEG2 is lossless. I said I did DVD to MPEG2 losslessly.

Anyway I'm still using TMPGEnc. Here's my script:

DirectshowSource("I:\New\1 = Test files\18 seconds test file.mpg")
Deblock_QED_MT2(24,28,uv=3)

When I open the script in TMPGEnc I get this error:

Script error: there is no function named "Deblock_QED_MT2"
I:New\1 = Test Files\My QED script.avs, line 4

I went to http://avisynth.org/mediawiki/Deblock_QED and clicked on the download link which only takes you to a page with the code on. I copied all the code into Notepad and saved the file as "Deblock_QED_MT2.avs" and I also tried the same but saving it as an ".avsi" file. Either file when copied into the plugins directory gives me the above error when I try and load a script in TMPGEnc. How do I get the Deblock_QED script to work?

[jagabo]

Mpeg2Source("Test File RAW December 30 1997.d2v", CPU=6)
ColorYUV(off_y=-24)
McTemporalDenoise(settings="low", interlaced=true)
Trim(0,800)

Encoded with HcGUI, 8000 kbps average, 9000 kbps max.