Choosing a VCR?

[Donatello]

Hello,

I'm relatively new to capturing VHS video, but I have a ton of tapes I would like to preserve digitally. The tapes are mostly recorded in EP format, and the quality varies wildly. Apart from tracking issues (mostly static on the bottom of the screen), another major problem I'm finding on a lot of the tapes is with the audio. It either goes back and forth between sounding clear or muffled, or there is a hiss that is almost as loud as the actual program audio.

The tapes I have to work with are ones that are very important to me and, for the most part, are likely the only existing copies of their contents, so I'll have to make do with what I have to work with. I've been looking through this site for quite some time, and the amount of conflicting suggestions is staggering. This is why I decided to just go ahead and ask you all what might work best for my own situation.

What setup do you think would help me get the most out of EP-mode tapes that vary between 15-25 years old and exhibit both video and audio issues when played on a run-of-the-mill mid-'90s VCR?

I know not to expect DVD quality, but I would like to get the best quality backups I can before it is no longer an option to do so. As you'd expect, I'm hesitant to spend a small fortune, but if the quality is worth it, I would consider it a good investment.

Thanks in advance for your help!

[orsetto]

You're in a very difficult situation when all or most of the tapes you want to capture are SLP/EP/6hr.

The conventional knee-jerk wisdom on this type of forum is to immediately recommend a high-end SVHS or DVHS VCR with built in TBC and DNR features. In my experience these features are optimized for SP/2hr tapes and do not work reliably well with SLP/EP: I suggest you do not rush right out and blow a small fortune on a fancy VCR. Take your time, and maybe begin with one or two simpler inexpensive decks to get your feet wet and see what direction will give you best results with YOUR tapes. First question is what country do you live in? There is often a big difference in VCR model names and performance depending on your country and video system. I can give you my experience in the USA using NTSC vcrs, if you live in a PAL country let us know so others can jump in with PAL recommendations. Wherever you live, the most important factor to consider in a VCR is its tracking ability with EP/SLP tapes, both video and audio. Note with EP/SLP tape capture you often need to make a choice between capturing the best possible video or the best possible audio: you can't achieve both (unless you capture them separately and recombine them using PC software). The VHS HiFi audio system falls apart at the EP/SLP speeds, unless you have the exact machine that originally made the tapes and its in perfect working order. On most VCRs, if you adjust tracking for the clearest video the HiFi audio will go staticky and drop in and out with the hissy monophonic backup track, while if adjusted for consistent HiFi audio performance the video tracking will suffer. Often the HiFi tracks in EP/SLP are just hopeless: no matter what you do it will be staticky and cut in and out- in such cases save yourself a world of aggravation and just lock the audio into monophonic (hissy and dull mono is a lot easier on the ears than stereo HiFi with dropouts, flanging, and stuttering motorboat static).

Of the North American NTSC models, many can be bought cheaply in thrift shops,on Craigs List, on eBay, or obtained as castoffs from relatives and friends. I find most of the Sharp 4-head-HiFi VCRs track SLP/EP tapes really well, followed by some Panasonic/Quasar models and a few Mitsubishi/MGAs. JVC I would choose dead last for SLP/EP unless you know for sure your tapes were originally recorded on a JVC-made VCR (JVCs tend to have serious tracking issues with SLP/EP tapes not recorded on themselves). Sharp made a great many VCRs, browse Craigs List or eBay and you can find them at giveaway prices in good condition. Panasonic made a very under-rated semi-pro model AG2560 about ten years ago which has excellent tracking at EP (as well as SP) its often found on eBay in great condition for $30-50 without a remote (you don't need the remote except to set the timer, any Panasonic remote or generic universal remote will operate the basic functions on the front panel). Many inexpensive ($25 or less used) Panasonic and Quasar models of the late 1990s (but not after 2001) track EP/SLP as well as Sharp VCRs: look for models like Panasonic 4720 and Quasar VHQ-860 or 960 (the mfr date can be found on the back panel- ask the seller).

Mitsubishi/MGA made many models over the years, some are better at tracking EP/SLP than others. Look for HS-U448, 449, 748, 749 second hand. Used Sonys can be tricky: the expensive fancy ones were hideously unreliable, the small compact cheap ones were often very good but hard to find in nice condition. If you see a compact black Sony model like the 685 in good shape for cheap, grab it. Avoid cheap JVCs, as I said earlier they tend not to track EP/SLP very well unless they made the tape themselves (there was a JVC DVD/VHS combo recorder model DR-MV5 which had a VCR with amazing HiFi tracking performance, the best I've heard in 20 years: this model has a bad rep for durability but if you can find one very cheap its worth a try). Some "very low end" VCRs with names like Emerson, Sylvania, LG or Samsung can surprise you with excellent EP/SLP tracking but are not worth risking money on to find out: if you can acquire them for $5 at a thrift shop or flea market take the chance but don't spend more than $15. Never load an important tape in a used VCR until you test it completely with a few tapes you don't care about.

One of the above "ordinary" VCRs should be able to give you decent overall playback with most of your EP/SLP tapes. You may decide to spend $70-100 total to buy three or four VCRs, because each one tracks differently and you may need more than one to cover all the variations in your EP/SLP tape collection. I personally feel most people should stop worrying about "improving" EP/SLP tapes with fancier VCRs: concentrate on finding a good tracking basic VCR or two, and be grateful if you do. EP/SLP is burdened with so many tracking and age-related issues that its usually a waste of time and money to try for "improvements" over the baseline. If you have money to burn and an itch to experiment, you can spend a lot of money on fancier VCRs, but don't expect miracles: all the bragging and puffery you read about "TBC/DNR equipped VCRs" applies almost entirely to SP/2hr mode. At LP/EP/SLP the "improvement" circuits often backfire and make things look much worse, and most of these "high end" vcrs are worse at tape tracking than the cheap VCRs.

The most highly recommended "fancy" decks would be (in no particular order) the DVHS models from JVC like HM-DH40000 or 30000, HM-DT100, or SR-VD400, and the Mitsubishi HS-HD2000U. DVHS were recently discontinued and lesser known than the older "legendary" SVHS models: you can get a DVHS in much better condition than an SVHS. Of the SVHS models with TBC/DNR, look for JVC SR-V101, its as recent as the DVHS units (older models like JVC 9911 are going to be heavily used at this point). The Panasonic AG1980 or Panasonic AG5710 are highly regarded for their variation on the TBC/DNR feature, their rugged build, and exceptional EP/SLP tracking range, but they tend to be very used and can need a tuneup by a VCR technician. Avoid the lookalike but much older AG1970 unless you can buy it very cheap locally ($50 or under). All the above refers to North America, if you live in a PAL country the model numbers are completely different and sometimes there is no direct equivalent (i.e. the PAL version of the very popular Panasonic AG1980 is NV-FS200, but the NV-FS200 is not exactly the same as an AG1980: it gets confusing). If you need a PAL recommendation look at the the sticky High End VCR thread maintained here by LordSmurf, or search the forum for phrases like "PAL vcr TBC/DNR" or "PAL JVC DigiPure" or "NV-FS200".

[jagabo]

Try using a Panasonic ES-15 in passthrough mode as a line TBC and frame sync.
https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/319420-Who-uses-a-DVD-recorder-as-a-line-TBC-and-wh...=1#post1983288
You can get them used on ebay for about US$75.

[victoriabears]

avoid the jvc machines to start with and get a Panasonic 1980p if in the usa or the fs200(you'll be lucky) in Europe, or any Panasonic s-vhs vcr in europe with tbc/dnr, the jvc's do not like ep/slp and do not play stereo sound back well either.

[orsetto]

Try using a Panasonic ES-15 in passthrough mode as a line TBC and frame sync.
https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/319420-Who-uses-a-DVD-recorder-as-a-line-TBC-and-wh...=1#post1983288
You can get them used on ebay for about US$75.

VERY VERY useful tip a lot of us forget to mention: doing this can solve most video "jitter" and distortion problems with EP/SLP tapes that seem to resist tracking adjustments. The ES10 and ES20 are also good as passthru boxes (although the ES20 is somewhat less effective than the earlier two). Spending $75 for an old dvd recorder seems strange but the pass-thru stabilizing functions can be well worth it, especially if paired with an inexpensive VCR for EP/SLP playback. This tape-stabilizing pass-thru improvement was a one-off undocumented feature exclusive to just these three Panasonics.

[lordsmurf]

ES10-15-20 is not transparent.
Keep that in mind.

Proper VCR is best solution.

[Donatello]

Thanks for the suggestions! I should have specified NTSC.

ES10-15-20 is not transparent.
Keep that in mind.

Transparent? What do you mean?

[jagabo]

ES10-15-20 is not transparent.
Keep that in mind.

Transparent? What do you mean?

He means the picture that comes out isn't exactly the same as the picture that went it (aside from the time base fixes, obviously). But the changes are so small as to be negligible (a slight change in levels and colors). Look at the thread I linked to. The difference is far smaller than the difference between any two consumer VCRs. Just don't enable the ES15's noise reduction.

[sanlyn]

ES10-15-20 is not transparent.
Keep that in mind.

Transparent? What do you mean?

He means the picture that comes out isn't exactly the same as the picture that went it (aside from the time base fixes, obviously). But the changes are so small as to be negligible (a slight change in levels and colors). Look at the thread I linked to. The difference is far smaller than the difference between any two consumer VCRs. Just don't enable the ES15's noise reduction.

Good tip about the NR. Also, the Panasonic TBC kicks in only on Line 1 input. Toshiba DVD recorders from 2000-2004 also had decent TBC's (RD-Xxxx series, with or without hard drives). TBC works on all inputs. I'm using both. The Toshiba's seem to have cleaner color/levels. But many are attracted to Panasonic's "punch". Can always be corrected later, which is usually needed anyway with tape.

[Donatello]

Thanks again for all of the replies! You guys are really helpful.

I was looking at this post about the ES15, and maybe my eyes just aren't good enough, but I can't tell a noticeable difference between it and the JVC 9900.
https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/319420-Who-uses-a-DVD-recorder-as-a-line-TBC-and-wh...=1#post1986891

I can't seem to find most of the JVC VCRs mentioned here for sale, but the Panasonic ones seem to be readily available. How does the 1980p fare against the JVC models? Have there been any examples posted of what it can do for an old tape?

Also, the capture device I have right now is a Canopus ADVC 110. The reason I went with this is because any other capture card I had previously used seemed to lead to the audio and video gradually getting more and more out-of-sync. It seemed like a good option at the time, but lately, I have read a lot of comments saying that these aren't a good solution. Would this device actually hurt the quality of my captures?

[orsetto]

You just asked several questions at once.

The Panasonic ES15 and JVC HR-S9900 are unrelated items: the ES15 is an old DVD recorder and the 9900 is an older high-end SVHS along the lines of the others mentioned previously. The ES15 provides an additional video correction unavailable in any other way but it does not take the place of either a VCR with built-in TBC or an external TBC. This is why I droned on endlessly earlier, to head you off running down blind alleys compiling tons of gear you may not need. I see now that we have you looking into the TBC feature, we'll have to explain the differences: there are three types of TBCs (Time Base Correctors). The first is an expensive external box, commonly the DataVideo TBC1000 or AVT-8710. These do not do anything visually noticeable, in fact they often soften the image a bit: their primary function is to lock down "under the hood" things like prevention of dropped frames and loss of lipsync audio when using cranky PC capture cards. The second type of TBC is built into the fancier DVHS and SVHS VCRs such as Mitsubishi HS-HD-2000U, JVC HR-S9900 and SR-V101, and Panasonic AG1980.

This TBC helps with certain types of visual distortion and generation loss in copied tapes, in some cases (AG1980) it can help with the lipsync drift in some PC capture cards. With these fancy VCRs, it isn't so much the TBC thats important but the DNR (Digital Noise Reduction) circuits they activate along with them: the combined TBC/DNR smooths away static-like noise and clarifies colors, especially reds. The third type of "TBC" is built into many DVD recorders- usually it doesn't do much of anything or its effects only operate internally on recordings, But a handful of DVD recorders had "pass thru" ability, like the Panasonic ES15 and the Toshibas mentioned by others. This "pass thru" function offers yet another possible cure for certain problems like severe jitter and/or distortion of vertical objects near the top of the frame.

ALL of these "TBCs" have their good points and bad points, they can all be used together in different combinations but the final result can look bizarre. Usually you'd want to narrow it down to as few processors in the chain from VCR to PC as possible. For example, the external dedicated TBC boxes can be vital for maintaining lipsync with some PC setups but they can noticeably soften the video. The TBC/DNR built into the fancy JVC, Panasonic and Mitsubishi VCRs can cure distortion or amplify it depending on the tape, generally it makes SLP/EP tapes look worse or adds weird white "dropouts" that disappear when you switch the TBC feature off. You can also end up with very fake looking skintones and motion that makes live actors look like CGI puppets. The Panasonic ES15 was a not-great early DVD recorder which just happened to have an amazing passthru ability to cure bad jitter and bad vertical distortion that can't be corrected with anything else: you plug your VCR line outs to the ES15 line ins, and the ES15 line outs to your PC line ins.

Drawbacks? The ES15 was a lame DVD recorder so the passthru isn't "transparent" (as LordSmurf delicately put it). During the passthru, the ES15 is actually digitizing your VHS using its lousy MPEG2 chip, then sending this pre-digitized video to your PC capture card where it will be re-encoded again: thats TWO stages of conversion in the chain (analog>digital>analog>digital), plus whatever other gadgets or features you pile on. The ES15 is primarily useful for correcting tapes that are just so damn terrible they're unwatchable any other way, so you don't mind the compromise of additional color issues and processing artifacts.

All the JVCs, whether SVHS or DVHS, use the same TBC/DNR circuit. The major differences are the age of the VCR and the apparent build quality (i.e. the popular 9911 is a truly dinky VCR but does have the TBC/DNR, the SR-V101 or SR-VD400 is newer and better). The Mitsubishi HS-HD2000U has a clone of the JVC/DNR or an outright license to use it, operation and results appear identical to most people although a few fanatics here on VH have used forensic technology to "prove" the Mitsu is "awful compared to an old JVC". Based on my testing, there's no real-world difference and the newer Mitsu has a far superior tape transport mechanism. The Panasonic AG1980 and its twin the AG5710 are SVHS decks with a TBC/DNR similar to but not exactly the same as the JVC/Mitsu. These have a "full frame" TBC as opposed to the "line TBC" in the others: with some tapes this makes a huge difference, with others it does not, this "full frame" feature was more important for tape-to-tape editing than capturing to digital.

The Panasonics are more ruggedly built and more easily repaired than most of the JVCs and the Mitsu, they have a better overall transport/tracking system and a different spin on the luma/chroma noise reduction idea. But they were pro models subject to pro wear and tear, you often need to budget for a servicing. Most people can get along with just one brand or the other, but if you have a huge collection amassed over many years (or a lot of SLP/EP tapes made on different VCRs) you may need both a Panasonic 1980 and a JVC or Mitsu. Each one is better with some tapes than others, since they're complementary designs. In your case, with mostly SLP/EP, I'd suggest not even thinking about a fancy TBC/DNR deck until you get your hands on a nice cheap "normal" VCR first. You need a "normal" VCR to make a good baseline for comparison, also "normal" VCRs typically handle SLP/EP better than the fancy VCRs.

I can't speak to your Canopus question aside from noting its very popular, don't know anything about its video performance or how sensitive it is to the dropped frames/lipsync issue. My workflow involves connecting my VCRs directly to Pioneer and Magnavox DVD/HDD recorders, which act as mini dedicated digitizing workstations. I find the dedicated DVD/HDD machines are much more forgiving of imperfect VHS input and they never have trouble maintaining lipsync or suffer dropped frames. I just dub to their HDDs, perform simple editing, then burn the DVDs with no need for external TBCs or a Panasonic ES15, often I don't even use the TBC/DNR in my Panasonic 1980 or Mitsu 2000. Of course, with a PC you can capture to lossless formats other than the MPEG2 DVD standard, and apply complex software filters to alter the video in ways not possible with a VCR to DVD recorder setrup.

[jagabo]

The Panasonic ES15 was a not-great early DVD recorder which just happened to have an amazing passthru ability to cure bad jitter and bad vertical distortion that can't be corrected with anything else: you plug your VCR line outs to the ES15 line ins, and the ES15 line outs to your PC line ins.

Drawbacks? The ES15 was a lame DVD recorder so the passthru isn't "transparent" (as LordSmurf delicately put it). During the passthru, the ES15 is actually digitizing your VHS using its lousy MPEG2 chip, then sending this pre-digitized video to your PC capture card where it will be re-encoded again: thats TWO stages of conversion in the chain (analog>digital>analog>digital)

As far as I can tell, the ES15 isn't going through an MPEG compression when in passthrough mode. I see no evidence of macroblocking or DCT ringing. Any full frame TBC will go through an analog to digital stage, then back to analog.

[orsetto]

Since you still have an ES15 on hand, jagabo, I'll take your word for it (that it doesn't go thru the entire MPEG2 encoding process before passing the stabilized signal to line out). I was pretty sure I saw an exhaustive thread here several years ago with many photos, depicting significant image changes during ES10 passthru mode (video became noticeably darker, colors muted or skewed). The point of that thread was not to criticize the ES10, but make users aware there were consequences to its remarkable corrective abilities (so they could take steps to work around the issues). There were definite remarks to the effect ES10 did output MPEG2 encoded video in passthru mode. I imagine jjeff had some had some involvement with that old ES10 thread: I'll have to ask him to refresh my memory (I was not a VH member at the time and don't have it bookmarked). It may also depend on the specific ES10, ES15 or ES20: there was wide sample variation among all brands of earlier DVD recorders. Of course agree with your reminder that all TBC accessories do digitize the video in some form, and most do not compress to MPEG2 in the process.

[lordsmurf]

The ES10 posterized, and from what I had seen, so did the ES15 and ES20.
It's mostly noticed on animation.

That's what I meant about transparency.

Therefore only use as needed, not all the time for all captures.
It's not a TBC replacement.

[sanlyn]

The ES10 posterized, and from what I had seen, so did the ES15 and ES20.
It's mostly noticed on animation.

That's what I meant about transparency.

My Toshiba RD-Xxx series did a much better job.

Therefore only use as needed, not all the time for all captures.
It's not a TBC replacement.

[jagabo]

I don't see any posterization with my es15 (in passthrough mode, without noise reduction).