I Need help for my new camera.

[deerehunter7710]

Hello my name is Perry Saarloos

And today i join videohelp.com forum and need help for the follow camera's to choos.

Canon 600D + Rode shotgun Mic
or
Sony Nex VG20 /30 + rode shotgun Mic

Why filming with 600D or Sony nex what is better?

I'm filming for agriculture company's the camera have to deal with fine dust in the fields not Always but with harvesting alot..
Also the sun is a problem, the wind in the Netherlands also.

Thanks for help.

(I like the smillies)

[TreeTops]

The Canon is a photo camera first, video second with limited amount of video recording time although a lot of people use it for vids. The Sony is a video camera.

[aedipuss]

the t3i is a still camera capable of shooting some limited video, the other's a videocam. if you are mostly shooting stills the canon wins, if video the sony. better canons for video are the t5i and 6d.

fine dust will get in either one. have them professionally cleaned often.

[Cornucopia]

I'm sure there are accessories that you can get (Lens Hood/French Flags/Matte Box) and (Underwater/All-weather housing), for these cameras, but you will have to budget in the extra cost of them. And I would STRONGLY suggest a sturdy professional, broadcast/cinema tripod, particularly if you have gusty wind (also $$).

Scott

<edit>And I agree with the above suggestions and, between the 2, would go with the Sony for video work.

[julitomg]

Two of the main reasons people are buying DSLRs like the Canon you are considering are the large image sensor and the lens interchangeability, the Sony has both and as mentioned before, it´s a proper video camera with the right ergonomy, also you´ll have longer shooting times wich could be important for example, let´s say you have to shoot a tractor´s performance across a large field; let´s think that you decide you want the whole action the tractor performs during its labor so you can either speed it up in post or just want to have the whole cycle to decide (also in post) wich parts are more important, so you place your camera on a tripod at a certain distance to cover the whole field and push Record, the shot could be several minutes log or even half an hour, one hour or whatever. Well with the Canon you just couldn´t do it because of a limited recording time, with the Sony would be a piece of cake since it doesn´t have such limitation.
By the way, if the wind is strong, you should also get something like this for your Rode mic:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/277952-REG/Rycote_055320_Mini_Windjammer.html

[Cornucopia]

I concur.

Scott

[deerehunter7710]

So the best camera to film: Sony Nex VG 20/ 30

[Brainiac]

Be mindful that there is NO 720P mode on the Sony camcorder.

[Cornucopia]

So the best camera to film: Sony Nex VG 20/ 30

Depends upon your workflow & subject(s), but yeah, probably.

Scott

[aedipuss]

my question would be why was it limited to 2 camera choices? lots of other nice ones out there.

[Stears555]

Do not forget the fact, that all DSLR cameras record lower (visible) resolution videos than midrange Camcorders.

[Cornucopia]

Do not forget the fact, that all DSLR cameras record lower (visible) resolution videos than midrange Camcorders.

FALSE. Particularly, the "ALL" part.

Scott

[smrpix]

Thanks Scott. He's been peddling this rubbish in a number of threads.

[Cornucopia]

We've locked horns before. It's mainly just a pebble in the shoe, though.

Scott

[Stears555]

Do not forget the fact, that all DSLR cameras record lower (visible) resolution videos than midrange Camcorders.

FALSE. Particularly, the "ALL" part.

Scott

OK, But Canon Sony Panasonic JVC top-consumer camcorders surpasses the real (visible) video resolution DSLR cameras.

Just see the "sharpness" laboratory test results of camcorderinfo.com, and compare these results with DSLR results of digitalcamerainfo.com (do not forget: camcorderinfo and digitalcamerainfo.com belong to the same firm)

[smrpix]

You've gone from "all camcorders" in other threads, to "mid-range" in this thread to "top-consumer" in your last post. Keep upgrading the camcorders and eventually you may be correct.

[Cornucopia]

You are playing fast and loose with these generalized terms "top consumer", "DSLR", etc.. Don't! Either do a head-to-head shootout, or scientific/engineering testing with known reference material, a la Consumer Reports, etc, or don't say things like that. And IIWY, I wouldn't rely on sites that use anecdotal evidence as the basis for reviews. This spreads as much MIS-information as it spreads information. You may not realize this, but there are plenty of movie professionals that are using things like Canon D5MkIII, tricked out and hacked to give further options, to very good effect. I've been on a number of multi-cam doc shoots with DPs that use them, and I can attest to their quality & usability. But that is a long way from, say, your early-version Canon EOS Digital Rebel DSLR. You can't bunch them into the same grouping, whether pricewise or quality-wise or usability/flexibility-wise.

Scott

[deerehunter7710]

okay what is the best compact video camera like a sony nex with good quality and sound for the wind and the sound of a tractor?

[smrpix]

okay what is the best compact video camera like a sony nex with good quality and sound for the wind and the sound of a tractor?

First, The Nex v30 you've picked out is excellent, but there are many good choices.
You may want to poke around the BHPhotovideo site and filter through some of the options and reviews based on your needs, including budget. http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/browse/Camcorders/ci/1820/N/4294548420

Next, the rode consumer mics are better than they have any right to be. They are not absolute top of the line, but they're -- well, betther than they should be at that price.

Generally, omnidirectional mics are less suceptible to wind and handling noise than shotguns, but they also need to be in closer for voice recording. This is why they are ideal for news standups in a noisy environment.

Generally, the best camera placement is not the same as the best microphone placement, and consideration should always be given to getting each what they need -- sometimes you sacrifice sound for picture, sometimes you sacrifice picture for sound -- or even record the sound completely seperately.

[Stears555]

You are playing fast and loose with these generalized terms "top consumer", "DSLR", etc.. Don't! Either do a head-to-head shootout, or scientific/engineering testing with known reference material, a la Consumer Reports, etc, or don't say things like that. And IIWY, I wouldn't rely on sites that use anecdotal evidence as the basis for reviews. This spreads as much MIS-information and it spreads information. You may not realize this, but there are plenty of movie professionals that are using things like Canon D5MkIII, tricked out and hacked to give further options, to very good effect. I've been on a number of multi-cam doc shoots with DPs that use them, and I can attest to their quality & usability. But that is a long way from, say, your early-version Canon EOS Digital Rebel DSLR. You can't bunch them into the same grouping, whether pricewise or quality-wise or usability/flexibility-wise.

Scott

These are the most famous and most visited websites about camcorder and camera testing. There are not better on the web. Iso chart testeng is the only good way for resolution testing.

A good expert page about the methods and testing: http://www.the-digital-picture.com
There are good special test softwares for Iso charts too.




Do you speak about cameramen? Cameramen of films are not real expersts. They are just professional users of cameras and camcorders. Even Academy Award winning cameramen are also not experts. Why ? Because they don't know much about physics (they hadn't engineering education they are not physicist) so they can't understand the operation of cameras/camcorders the optics and electronics in scientific levels. And the usage of "Canon D5MkIII and the multi-cam doc shoots with DPs" doesn't change that fact.





If somebody want to catch the reality in its higher level, than he can choose camcorders.

If somebody wants some artistic level of camera/camcorder management with interchangeable lenses, than he can chose DSLR digital cameras.

[Brainiac]

Just my 2 cents.
I own the Sony NEX-VG20H, the predecessor to the VG30. I am very pleased not only with the quality of the video but also with the quality of the camera's construction. The stock lens is HEAVY and very well built.

As I stated before, there is no 720P mode for this camera. Also, if you do buy the HV30, you may want to purchase some longer life batteries and a charger.

One main difference between the HV20 and the HV30 is that the HV30 has a zoom rocker, whereas the HV20 has manual zoom only.

I strongly suggest that you research more than a few video cameras and DSLRs. Make a list of the most important things that you require for your particular shooting environment(s) and once that is done make a decision from there. Also, check for rebates. And avoid vendors that offer deals that seem too good to be true.

Brainiac

[Video Head]

You are playing fast and loose with these generalized terms "top consumer", "DSLR", etc.. Don't! Either do a head-to-head shootout, or scientific/engineering testing with known reference material, a la Consumer Reports, etc, or don't say things like that. And IIWY, I wouldn't rely on sites that use anecdotal evidence as the basis for reviews. This spreads as much MIS-information and it spreads information. You may not realize this, but there are plenty of movie professionals that are using things like Canon D5MkIII, tricked out and hacked to give further options, to very good effect. I've been on a number of multi-cam doc shoots with DPs that use them, and I can attest to their quality & usability. But that is a long way from, say, your early-version Canon EOS Digital Rebel DSLR. You can't bunch them into the same grouping, whether pricewise or quality-wise or usability/flexibility-wise.

Scott

These are the most famous and most visited websites about camcorder and camera testing. There are not better on the web. Iso chart testeng is the only good way for resolution testing.

A good expert page about the methods and testing: http://www.the-digital-picture.com
There are good special test softwares for Iso charts too.




Do you speak about cameramen? Cameramen of films are not real expersts. They are just professional users of cameras and camcorders. Even Academy Award winning cameramen are also not experts. Why ? Because they don't know much about physics (they hadn't engineering education they are not physicist) so they can't understand the operation of cameras/camcorders the optics and electronics in scientific levels. And the usage of "Canon D5MkIII and the multi-cam doc shoots with DPs" doesn't change that fact.





If somebody want to catch the reality in its higher level, than he can choose camcorders.

If somebody wants some artistic level of camera/camcorder management with interchangeable lenses, than he can chose DSLR digital cameras.

I was unaware that one needed a full understanding of quantum particle entanglement to operate a camera! Does multiverse effect one's choice of lenses? How does string theory effect autofocus?

In my opinion, single shooters and field production are best served by camcorders. DSLR's are best for cinematic shoots with rigs and crews. Each has its own advantages and disadvantages. As in all photography, there is no right or wrong, it is just about getting the shot.

[Stears555]

You are playing fast and loose with these generalized terms "top consumer", "DSLR", etc.. Don't! Either do a head-to-head shootout, or scientific/engineering testing with known reference material, a la Consumer Reports, etc, or don't say things like that. And IIWY, I wouldn't rely on sites that use anecdotal evidence as the basis for reviews. This spreads as much MIS-information and it spreads information. You may not realize this, but there are plenty of movie professionals that are using things like Canon D5MkIII, tricked out and hacked to give further options, to very good effect. I've been on a number of multi-cam doc shoots with DPs that use them, and I can attest to their quality & usability. But that is a long way from, say, your early-version Canon EOS Digital Rebel DSLR. You can't bunch them into the same grouping, whether pricewise or quality-wise or usability/flexibility-wise.

Scott

These are the most famous and most visited websites about camcorder and camera testing. There are not better on the web. Iso chart testeng is the only good way for resolution testing.

A good expert page about the methods and testing: http://www.the-digital-picture.com
There are good special test softwares for Iso charts too.




Do you speak about cameramen? Cameramen of films are not real expersts. They are just professional users of cameras and camcorders. Even Academy Award winning cameramen are also not experts. Why ? Because they don't know much about physics (they hadn't engineering education they are not physicist) so they can't understand the operation of cameras/camcorders the optics and electronics in scientific levels. And the usage of "Canon D5MkIII and the multi-cam doc shoots with DPs" doesn't change that fact.





If somebody want to catch the reality in its higher level, than he can choose camcorders.

If somebody wants some artistic level of camera/camcorder management with interchangeable lenses, than he can chose DSLR digital cameras.

I was unaware that one needed a full understanding of quantum particle entanglement to operate a camera! Does multiverse effect one's choice of lenses? How does string theory effect autofocus?

In my opinion, single shooters and field production are best served by camcorders. DSLR's are best for cinematic shoots with rigs and crews. Each has its own advantages and disadvantages. As in all photography, there is no right or wrong, it is just about getting the shot.

Read about image quality testing and image test softwares. (The engineers and scientists of IMATEST are the creaors of ISO test charts!!!)

http://www.imatest.com/products/

Handle the resolution testings (with the ISO charts and their special softwares) results as hard-facts.

DSLR cameras record movies in lower visible resolution & less details than top consumer camcorders of Sony JVC Canon Panasonic camcorders.


(units for sharpness are: LW/PH =
Line width per picture height
LP/mm = Line pairs per millimetre
L/mm = Lines per millimetre
Cycles/mm = Cycles per millimetre
Cycles/pixel = Cycles per pixel
LP/PH = Linepairs per picture height )

[smrpix]

@Sters555 -- If this were true, the Hollywood professionals you are maligning would all be using consumer camcorders for "A" footage.

I assure you, the folks I know and know of, test cameras, lenses and pickup systems rigorously. They are in constant communication with the manufacturers, contributing their ideas and experience to the development of the systems and are continually looking for the "next thing." Some even have access to proprietary information not available on consumer web sites. Who do you think developed those charts? Believe it or not, many of them are as passionate about this stuff as you.


You are overgeneralizing to the point of nonsense my friend. Enough.

[Stears555]

The comparison of the simple HD (1080p) cameras to "cinematic shoots" sounds strange. Even the 4K cameras are enough good in comparison with classic film cameras. The very few 8K cameras are really capable for real "cinematic shoots".

"1080p" DSLR cameras which had much larger (active) pixel count than 1920*1080, so their sharpness are not real professional, due to the resize methods and algorithms, which always decrease the sharpness resolution quality of video picture. The very expensive high-end professional videocameras of the studios of large televisions (BBC NBC CNN etc...) usually don't use larger pixel count than 1920*1080.


Best 1080p DSLR cameras can shot movies around 700 x 700 LW/PH real visible resolution. Many panasonic consumer camcorders are capable to shot in 1000 - 1100 LW/PH real resolution.


The DSLR cameras have a great advantage over the top consumer camcorders: They are less sensitive, therefore the human skin problems blemishes & wrinkles etc... are less visible. You don't need to employ costly professional sminkers for very close shots. The subjects/actors of your movies looks more better/handsome/beautiful.

[smrpix]

Fool me twice...

[Stears555]

Fool me twice...

I can link many DSLR and camcorder resolution tests.

[Cornucopia]

Fool me twice...

Don't worry, smrpix, I don't think he fooled us even once!

Having had my best man work as a camera tester at THE major cinema outfitter, as well as an ADP gives me first-hand (or at worst, 2nd) knowledge of this stuff, particularly calibration & comparisons. Don't know if I can say the same for what was being regurgitated...

Scott

[Stears555]

Fool me twice...

Don't worry, smrpix, I don't think he fooled us even once!

Having had my best man work as a camera tester at THE major cinema outfitter, as well as an ADP gives me first-hand (or at worst, 2nd) knowledge of this stuff, particularly calibration & comparisons. Don't know if I can say the same for what was being regurgitated...

Scott

Do you really think that the IMATEST ISO charts and softwares are fairy tales?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imatest

"Imatest LLC is a company that produces image quality testing software and offers a range of consulting services. Imatest was founded by photographer/engineer Norman Koren in Boulder, Colorado in 2004 to develop software for testing digital camera image quality. Imatest software has since been adopted by a wide range of industries and is now the most popular software package in the world for testing digital image quality.
Using Imatest software, a variety of image quality factors can be analyzed including image sharpness, color response, noise, dynamic range, tonal response, lens flare, lens distortion, lens vignetting, sensor non-uniformity, and color moiré.
Imatest has been adopted by a wide range of industries that employ embedded digital imaging systems, including mobile imaging (camera phones), medical imaging, aerospace and machine vision, as well as publications/reviews, and academic, cultural, and research institutions. Imatest software is referenced in research, art, and industry.[1][2][3]
Among many other applications, Imatest has been used to adjust images with different amounts of sharpening to a standard amount of sharpening, and to compare resolution in of those adjusted images.[4] Imatest also tests color accuracy, tone-scale linearity, image distortion, light falloff, and printing gamut."




I don't think that cameramen are understand the details of the cameras and camcorders. Most of them don't understand the details of the operation of optics & electronics, due to the fact that 99% of them are not engineers. They are "just" professional users. They are average people with average intelligence. It is a very misleading to compare them to the engineers & scientists of the laboratories of the camera/camcorder manufacturer companies.

[Video Head]

Stears555, your posts read like an advertisement for Imatest LLC...and I suspect that they are.