Questions about VHS Capture Project

[jrodefeld]

Hello everyone,

As you might recall I have made a few posts here about a project I am working on to transfer my grandparents Home Movie VHS collection to DVD. I am looking to do the best job I can to back up the memories of my childhood and those of my cousins and relatives. I have gotten better the more I have worked on this project but I still second guess myself and wonder if I might be doing things wrong, or rather there might be a better way to go about this project. I want to pose a few questions to you folks and I would greatly appreciate any help you might be able provide.

As a recap, I am using a Panasonic S-VHS AG-1970 player as a source. I am running a Monster Cable S-Video cable to the Cypress CTB-100G Time Base Corrector and then running a second Monster Cable S-Video cable to the ATI TV Wonder 650 capture card. I am capturing in huffyuv.

Here are my questions:


1. What settings should I set on the Panasonic S-VHS player? Currently, I have set the internal TBC to "on", and the noise filter to "on", and the input select to "S-Video", and the S-VHS switch to "on". I also have the picture slider (soft to sharp) set in the middle or slightly to the sharp side. Does all of this sound right? What would you recommend for settings on the Panasonic S-VHS player itself?

2. I am currently using Virtualdub to capture. Is this the program you would recommend for capturing? What Virtualdub settings should I use for the highest quality captures? In capture mode under the "video" tab there is an option called "Noise Reduction" and one called "Filter Chain". What do these do? Is the noise reduction setting effective when capturing? Under "Filter Chain" the options are either "Enable" or "Skip 24-bit Conversion". Do any of these merit enabling or using in any way? What other settings should I set for capturing? If Virtualdub should not be used for capture, which program do you recommend?

3. I am using Huffyuv to capture to. Then I will filter (if necessary) and encode to Mpeg2 with high quality software. Am I correct in assuming that this will yield the best possible end quality from VHS capture? Should I be using Huffyuv as an uncompressed format, or are other formats superior? I am thinking specifically of Lagarith, as I have been hearing quite a few good things about it. However, file size is not a concern for me given that I bought a 2TB external hard drive specifically for this project. Do any of these formats differ in picture quality?

If you suggest I stick with Huffyuv, what settings should I set under "compression" in the video tab? I have been sticking with the defaults, which are "Predict Median" for YUY2, and "Predict Gradiant" for RGB. And Field Threshold is set to 288 lines. I haven't selected any other option. Are these settings good or should I change them?

4. Are there specific settings for the ATI capture card that I should consider? I haven't done anything except install drivers and start virtualdub. The software for ATI hardware can be difficult to navigate so I just haven't bothered. But I know that ATI cards are very popular around here for VHS capture projects, so I want to know if any of you have any suggestions or considerations that are specific to these cards that affect image quality.

5. Once I have the video on the computer, my process has been to edit (cut and join) the files while in the uncompressed AVI format through virtualdub. After I prepare the files, I frameserve through virtualdub to Cinema Craft Encoder SP2. Or sometimes I don't intend to apply filters, so I simply load the avi directly into CCE and encode from there. Does this sound like the correct process to you?

My real question is: Is Cinema Craft Encoder the best Mpeg2 encoder that I can use in terms of image quality? I recall a while back it was considered the very best but I don't know if it still is. I have heard raves about Main Concept Reference. If money was no object and you wanted the very best quality encodes which software would you use? I have been comparing CCE, Procoder and Main Concept, though there are certainly more that may have merit. I want to archive this footage in the best quality I can, so I would appreciate some recommendations.

Assuming I stick with CCE, I am not sure of the best settings for video quality. I have been using either two or three pass VBR, is that solidly superior to a Constant Bitrate setting?

I am using interlaced 29.97 footage (obviously), so should the pulldown be set to 2:3 or 3:2? What about Inverse 3:2?

What should the bitrate be for best quality? Is it a case of higher equals better? I have tended to set a higher bitrate if I have the space (like Average 7000) but I am not sure if that is right. Some clarification would be appreciated.

What about more advanced settings like Luminance Level and Quantization Scale? Or Block scan order?

What are your recommendations for MPEG2 encoder software (Main Concept, Procoder, CCE) and settings you would use for this sort of project?


6. I have discovered during this project that I am not very good at restoring video and using filters. Some video is in pretty bad shape. For those that are true experts here (like LordSmurf), how much emphasis do you place on running Virtualdub or Avisynth filters in a project such as this? In my case I have tried to do the best through hardware to capture the highest quality I can so I might be less reliant on complex filter chains that take forever to encode. But I really want to achieve the best quality I can so I will have to learn to do a good job with some filters to correct (or improve) certain problems in some video tapes I have. So, for those who are experts:

Do you run at least some filters on every VHS tape you capture? There are some captures that look pretty good (no glaring problems) and I hesitate to run an extensive filter chain that will take ages to encode and might end up looking worse than what I started with. So basically, do you leave the filters for serious problem tapes or do you filter nearly every tape to some degree?

What are your favorite filters to use for VHS tapes? Which ones do you use for nearly all VHS captures and which ones do you use for specific problem tapes?

What is your opinion of NeatVideo? I have used it but I worry about some of these de-noisers that I am losing too much detail. What is your experience?

How do you balance the desire for improving quality with the reality of how long it takes to encode video with a lengthy filter chain?

For good quality video that has been captured with good hardware, do you tend to leave it untouched if it has no glaring problems?

Are there any good resources to learn more about restoring video and using filters for VHS tapes?




I really appreciate the resource that this site is for people like myself who are still learning how to capture video and make dvds. I hope some of the knowledgeable folks here (like LordSmurf) would be kind enough to impart some of their wisdom on this thread to assist a relative newbie at capturing VHS tapes and restoring the image to prepare them for DVD's I am making.


Thank you for reading this and I await any responses I might get.

[manono]

I can't help with most of it...

5. Does this sound like the correct process to you?

Not to me it doesn't. I filter and frameserve via an AviSynth script. I find it a little hard to believe that VHS caps don't need at least some filtering.

My real question is: Is Cinema Craft Encoder the best Mpeg2 encoder that I can use in terms of image quality?

I use it exclusively. Some say for interlaced encodes HCEnc or Procoder are better. I've never had any problems with CCE.

I have been using either two or three pass VBR, is that solidly superior to a Constant Bitrate setting?

Anything's better than CBR unless the video is short and you're using really high CBR bitrates. You could even try 1-pass CQ encodes.

I am using interlaced 29.97 footage (obviously), so should the pulldown be set to 2:3 or 3:2? What about Inverse 3:2?

If it's true interlace (shot using 29.97fps interlaced video cameras), you don't apply any pulldown at all. If it's film sourced and hard telecined then better would be to IVTC in an AviSynth script and then apply pulldown. 3:2 or 2:3 doesn't make any difference at all, although on retail DVDs it's usually 2:3.

What should the bitrate be for best quality?

I use the highest average bitrate I can for the amount of video I'm planning to put on the DVDR. Obviously, the higher the better.

What about more advanced settings like Luminance Level and Quantization Scale? Or Block scan order?

There are plenty of CCE guides around. Have you looked? Have you read the CCE manual to see what it has to say about the settings?

And virtually everything you've asked has already been covered ad nauseum in other threads. Have you searched?

[jrodefeld]

I can't help with most of it...

5. Does this sound like the correct process to you?

Not to me it doesn't. I filter frameserve via an AviSynth script. I find it a little hard to believe than VHS caps don't need at least some filtering.

Okay. But is this simply a case of personal preference or is there a real, tangible reason that using AviSynth to filter and frameserve will result in superior quality encodes over virtualdub? I find AviSynth to be rather difficult to understand and grasp so I prefer a process that doesn't involve learning to write complex scripts.

However, if you believe that using AviSynth will result in superior quality in the end I would be willing to try to learn.

I know what you mean about VHS captures probably needing some filtering. I just meant that some of the captured footage seemed surprisingly good (for VHS) and I always worry about using a filtering chain that makes an encode take 8 to 10 hours for a 90 minute clip and then the quality is not satisfactory. I guess I just need to learn more about how to apply filters and improve the quality of VHS sources.

My real question is: Is Cinema Craft Encoder the best Mpeg2 encoder that I can use in terms of image quality?

I use it exclusively. Some say for interlaced encodes HCEnc or Procoder are better. I've never had any problems with CCE.[/QUOTE]

Okay, good to know. I will stick with CCE then. I just had been hearing about Main Concept and some others and I wasn't sure if some of them had surpassed CCE in recent years. But, yes, it seems to me that Cinema Craft Encoder is quite fast, reliable and gives good quality almost every time. So no complaints there, I just wanted to clear up that up.

I have been using either two or three pass VBR, is that solidly superior to a Constant Bitrate setting?

Anything's better than CBR unless the video is short and you're using really high CBR bitrates. You could even try 1-pass CQ encodes.[/QUOTE]

Okay. Do you usually run 2 pass VBR when you encode? Is there a real advantage to 3 or 4 pass VBR?

I am using interlaced 29.97 footage (obviously), so should the pulldown be set to 2:3 or 3:2? What about Inverse 3:2?

If it's true interlace (shot using 29.97fps interlaced video cameras), you don't apply any pulldown at all. If it's film sourced and hard telecined then better would be to IVTC in an AviSynth script and then apply pulldown. 3:2 or 2:3 doesn't make any difference at all, although on retail DVDs it's usually 2:3.[/QUOTE]

Alright, all the videos I am capturing are home movies that were shot around 20 years ago, so I believe they are true interlaced. The default for these encodes has been to apply no pulldown at all in CCE and I believe that is correct. In fact it won't even allow me to change the pulldown setting, but it WILL allow me to set inverse pulldown and I assume for the footage I am using, I should NOT change this setting?

What should the bitrate be for best quality?

I use the highest average bitrate I can for the amount of video I'm planning to put on the DVDR. Obviously, the higher the better.[/QUOTE]

Is it really the rule that I should simply set the highest average bitrate that the disc capacity will allow for the amount of video I intend to put on a disc? I am using double layer DVD's, so space is not much of a concern for me. I seem to recall a guide that advised against simply setting the highest possible bitrate in the belief that this will give a huge increase in quality. Is there a point of diminishing returns? I mean, I could set the average bitrate to 9000, but would that really be better than 7000, even if I had the disc space?

A rule that I have, however, is never setting it below 6000. Usually I set the average bitrate to between 6500 and 7500 in a two or three pass VBR. Does that seem good to you, or would you really advise I go even higher if I have the disc space?

What about more advanced settings like Luminance Level and Quantization Scale? Or Block scan order?

There are plenty of CCE guides around. Have you looked?

And virtually everything you've asked has already been covered ad nauseum in other threads. Have you searched?[/QUOTE]

Yes, I have looked. And you are right that there is a lot of information on these forums and elsewhere about the topic of VHS capture, yet many of these threads contain new information by asking similar questions. You are correct that some of the answers to some of these questions I might have found by looking through the forum, however I think there is value in asking some of these questions because I might have follow up questions or specific problems that won't be addressed anywhere else.

I specifically was hoping for some ideas about how to properly filter VHS tapes. Everyone seems to have different opinions on this question. I just wanted to get the individual opinions of some individuals here, as opposed to another website with people I have less respect for.

I appreciate your responses though. I would be interested if you would elaborate on why you like AviSynth more than Virtualdub for filtering and frameserving? Or maybe you could tell me which filters you use for VHS captures?

Thanks a lot.

[manono]

I frameserve with AviSynth so I can be sure VDub doesn't mess with things such as colorspaces. AVISynth scripts allow me full control over everything. I filter in AviSynth because there are a ton of AviSynth filters, way more than available in VDub alone. Having said that, though. I don't ordinarily encode capped VHS tapes, although I've worked with hundreds of DVDs made from VHS tapes.

Okay. Do you usually run 2 pass VBR when you encode? Is there a real advantage to 3 or 4 pass VBR?

Counting the first VAF creation pass, I usually run 5 passes. Some say there's little gain after 3 or 4 passes but I do it anyway. Some are still running 9 passes. To each his own. I do believe, though that besides rarely hitting the file size you want if running only 2 passes in CCE, there is additional quality to be squeezed out with more passes.

Is there a point of diminishing returns? I mean, I could set the average bitrate to 9000, but would that really be better than 7000, even if I had the disc space?

One of the main complaints against the DVD specs is the low max bitrate. For encoding from VHS tapes with all the noise they contain, this is especially true. Although the average bitrate is important, the max bitrate is equally important. Many advise against setting it higher than about 8000. I say that's nonsense and regularly have mine at 9500. Again, for noisy VHS caps, the max bitrate (and the average bitrate) should be as high as possible to ensure decent quality for even the complex scenes.

I always worry about using a filtering chain that makes an encode take 8 to 10 hours for a 90 minute clip and then the quality is not satisfactory.

The obvious answer there is to run the slow filter chain only once and make a lossless AVI (I use Lagarith but others prefer other codecs), and then encode for DVD using the lossless AVI as the source.

...but it WILL allow me to set inverse pulldown and I assume for the footage I am using, I should NOT change this setting?

If pure interlaced video it was never telecined and therefore can't be InVerse TeleCined. Unless you like really jerky video. However, to be sure, examine your footage. If every frame is interlaced, don't try and Inverse Telecine it. Keep it at 29.97fps and encode it as interlaced.

I specifically was hoping for some ideas about how to properly filter VHS tapes.

One size doesn't fit all. Different sources require different treatments. Maybe others can offer suggestions. Or maybe you'd like to make available a small sample for us to have a look.

Just my opinions, worth about what you paid for them.

[jrodefeld]

Thanks manono for the replies. I appreciate it. I do plan on uploading some clips to see what you might advise as far as filtering is concerned, but I don't have time at the moment. Could anyone else respond to this thread so I could gather more opinions on these subjects? I certainly appreciate it.


I am interested specifically in learning which virtualdub (or avisynth) filters people use most frequently for VHS sources. I understand the concern about specific major problems in some videos requiring a unique approach but most of the video I have is not that bad, about what you would expect from decent vhs footage that is captured through good hardware and a TBC. I am trying to get an idea of what you guys do for most VHS captures.

Thanks.

[sanlyn]

I am running a Monster Cable S-Video cable to. . .

You might think this sounds really nutty, but I know precious few avid videophiles who'd consider using Monster Cable. The first time I used that particular s-video cable, I thought something had gone wrong with my VCR. It isn't only that Monster is overpriced, which of course it is. They use unsuitable core wire, and their connectors are cheaply made and poorly designed. For 8 years I've been using the same s-video wire. I experimented with others costing up to $200 for a measly 0.5 meter (and returned it next day). Here are links to a Korean s-video wire that I first purchased a while back after I saw it being used in a video archival lab. All links are to the same wire, in various lengths and prices. Note the connector. No other s-video connector looks exactly like this molded-plastic cheapie. A friend and movie fan once saw me hooking up one of these cables, and I thought he'd have a stroke. Today he owns several of them. Apparently he was as surprised as I. Circuit City used to sell these under the generic "RCA" label. Good contrast, accurate color, nice skin tones, no transmission noise.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16882719307&cm_re=s-video_cables-_...-307-_-Product
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=9SIA05W0195557&cm_re=s-video_cables-_-...5557-_-Product
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=9SIA05W0195682&cm_re=s-video_cables-_-...5682-_-Product
http://www.newegg.com/Product/ImageGallery.aspx?CurImage=12-787-015-02.jpg&Image=12-78...20BL-265-106BK
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16882006078&cm_re=s-video_cables-_...-078-_-Product
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16812787016&cm_re=s-video_cables-_...-016-_-Product
If you want to spend more, this is the only contender:
Blue Jeans Cable YC-2 S-Video Cables: http://www.bluejeanscable.com/store/svideo/index.htm

2. . . .What Virtualdub settings should I use for the highest quality captures? . . .option called "Noise Reduction" and one called "Filter Chain". . .

Most people advise this: never use filters when capturing, unless you're using a hardware device designed for real-time capture filtering (such as a proc amp). These are not cheap. Here's a basic guide to VirtualDub capture:
http://www.digitalfaq.com/guides/video/capture-avi-virtualdub.htm
This one's more complicated, and with other info on filters for VirtualDub/AviSynth:
http://www.doom9.org/index.html?/capture/start.html

By the way, keep you VCR's TBC turned on, but turn off the noise filter (too blurry) and the sharpener (at this stage, you're sharpening noise and making it more difficult to clean).

3. ...Should I be using Huffyuv as an uncompressed format, or are other formats superior? I am thinking specifically of Lagarith, as I have been hearing quite a few good things about it.

Huffyuv and lagarith are video compressors. If you want uncompressed video, don't use a compressor. Lagarith is too slow for real-time capture and compression. Huffyuv was designed with that purpose in mind.

Do any of these formats differ in picture quality?

No difference. Huffyuv and lagarith aren't "formats". They're compressors.

4. Are there specific settings for the ATI capture card ...

No. Your ATI card just fetches the image to be used by VirtualDub, not to capture. ATI's capture utility was OK in its day, but you can do better with VirtualDub.

5. ... What should the bitrate be for best quality? Is it a case of higher equals better?

That's usually the case, but consider this bitrate table, copied in one form or another by many other sites (Go to the bottom of this page): http://www.digitalfaq.com/guides/video/introduction-record-capture.htm

6. I have discovered during this project that I am not very good at restoring video and using filters. ... do you leave the filters for serious problem tapes or do you filter nearly every tape to some degree?

Every tape. Image correction involves a learning process. From my experience and from the teachings of others, the most important elements in image correction are:
(a) learn to recognize defects and what causes them.
(b) learn the basics of RGB color, and develop an eye for three basic hues: black, gray, and white.
(c) Don't try to correct color by eyeball alone. The eye knows if a color isn't "right", but often the brain can't explain exactly why. Is an image too green because there's too much green, or because there's not enough magenta? Learn to use histograms. In color work, they're your best friend.
(d) Working on an uncalibrated monitor is a waste of time and effort.
(e) Accept the fact that VHS color isn't as accurate or clean as digital. Do what you can.

Visit photography sites for free tutorials on how to analyze with histograms. These sites are aimed at still photos but the principles apply to all graphics. Another helpful site with a general overview of reading contrast levels with histograms:
http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials/histograms1.htm
With video, you'll need histograms that also help analyze luminance and RGB colors. This site discusses the RGB histogram in the ColorTools VirtualDub plugin: http://trevlac.us/colorCorrection/histo.html
And here's the essential plugin with histogram, vectorscope, and waveform monitor all-in-one:
http://trevlac.us/colorCorrection/colorTools.html
Download the plugin here: http://trevlac.us/colorCorrection/clrtools.vdf

The Doom9 capture guide has an article on vectorscopes and waveforms. Go here, bottom half of the page: http://www.doom9.org/capture/digital_video_color.html

What are your favorite filters to use for VHS tapes? Which ones do you use for nearly all VHS captures and which ones do you use for specific problem tapes?

You have a VHS tape that isn't a "problem"? VHS is a problem, period.

I have a few favorite AviSynth plugins, but for VHS I work almost exclusively in VirtualDub (RGB) and with the advanced color filters in TMPGenc 2.5. But don't let anyone turn you off to AviSynth. I've done miraculous things with it, but only after much disappointment and some consultation with AviSynth gurus.

- NeatVideo. Essential. Lovers of AviSynth say you can get results just as good (assuming you know C++, have a degree in video engineering, and can speak Russian and assembler). Read the manual. All of it. People who criticize NeatVideo either don't read or can't. Learn to use the Advanced interface. Experiment. Never use NeatVideo default values. Repeat, never. They're too strong. This is a spatio-temporal filter in one. Can be used with AviSynth.

- VirtualDub temporal smoother (built-in). Handy, doesn't cause too much trouble. Avoid settings of 5 or greater, or it smears just like all other temporal filters.

- ColorTools. See the link above.

- Gradation Curve plugin. Similar to Photoshop/Premiere gradation curve, and can import Photoshop curve settings. Here's a tutorial: http://members.chello.at/nagiller/vdub/tutorial/tutorial.html
Download here: http://members.chello.at/nagiller/vdub/gradation.zip

- You must be able to read RGB pixel values, or you're grasping at straws. csamp is a standalone executable, no install. Just copy to your desktop and click on its little icon. When you move your mouse, it reads pixel colors under the cursor. While it's running it looks like this:

[Attachment 7515 - Click to enlarge]
Download at http://www.netreach.net/~gavin/gavsfreeware/csamp.htm .

- Color Mill (RGB, Levels, Saturation, Gamma) at http://fdump.narod.ru/rgb.htm
- RGB Equalizer (Precise 17-point RGB adjust) at http://fdump.narod.ru/equalizer.htm

For more VirtualDub and AviSynth plugins than you can shake a stick at, see http://neuron2.net/ . Veteran AviSynth gurus can help with more, or browse the AviSynth Usage forum at http://forum.doom9.org/index.php .

What is your opinion of NeatVideo? I have used it but I worry about some of these de-noisers that am losing too much detail. What is your experience?

I repeat: never use their default or sample values. All denoisers destroy detail to some extent. Take a hard, close look at any VSH video: at least 40% of what you see is noise, not "detail". VHS can't look like DVD or film. I've seen NeatVideo clean compression artifacts and chroma noise, but most people over-filter -- and not just with NeatVideo. If NV is good enough for the pros, it's good enough for me. But ya gotta tweak.

How do you balance the desire for improving quality with the reality of how long it takes to encode video with a lengthy filter chain?

Good work takes time. Lengthy filter chains? If you're using a heavy load of filters, it's time to rethink your methods. Too many filters create new problems.

For good quality video that has been captured with good hardware, do you tend to leave it untouched if it has no glaring problems?

I've had a few tapes, maybe 5 or 6, with good equipment and care, that made passably clean transfers to DVD with little trouble. But that's 6 tapes out of more than 200.

Are there any good resources to learn more about restoring video and using filters for VHS tapes?

I think VideoHelp is unique, with so much info and so many experts in one place. browsing here can eat some time. The Doom9 forum is helpful, but frankly most of it is either over my head or outta my free-time zone. Like most members,. I just keep looking, farther and farther back into the archives...2004, 2002, . . .

[smartel]

Wow !

[lordsmurf]

Monster had some of the best cables .... 15 years ago.
Now? No.

[jrodefeld]

[QUOTE=sanlyn;2088180]

I am running a Monster Cable S-Video cable to. . .

You might think this sounds really nutty, but I know precious few avid videophiles who'd consider using Monster Cable. The first time I used that particular s-video cable, I thought something had gone wrong with my VCR. It isn't only that Monster is overpriced, which of course it is. They use unsuitable core wire, and their connectors are cheaply made and poorly designed. For 8 years I've been using the same s-video wire. I experimented with others costing up to $200 for a measly 0.5 meter (and returned it next day). Here are links to a Korean s-video wire that I first purchased a while back after I saw it being used in a video archival lab. All links are to the same wire, in various lengths and prices. Note the connector. No other s-video connector looks exactly like this molded-plastic cheapie. A friend and movie fan once saw me hooking up one of these cables, and I thought he'd have a stroke. Today he owns several of them. Apparently he was as surprised as I. Circuit City used to sell these under the generic "RCA" label. Good contrast, accurate color, nice skin tones, no transmission noise.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16882719307&cm_re=s-video_cables-_...-307-_-Product
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=9SIA05W0195557&cm_re=s-video_cables-_-...5557-_-Product
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=9SIA05W0195682&cm_re=s-video_cables-_-...5682-_-Product
http://www.newegg.com/Product/ImageGallery.aspx?CurImage=12-787-015-02.jpg&Image=12-78...20BL-265-106BK
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16882006078&cm_re=s-video_cables-_...-078-_-Product
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16812787016&cm_re=s-video_cables-_...-016-_-Product
If you want to spend more, this is the only contender:
Blue Jeans Cable YC-2 S-Video Cables: http://www.bluejeanscable.com/store/svideo/index.htm

Yeah, I have known about the questionable reputation that Monster Cable has among enthusiasts. I didn't choose this brand specifically but rather I was looking for a decent S-Video cable and I assumed that the Monster Cable would be better than the cheapo brands that I could choose from. I am certainly open to purchasing better cables for this project, however I am not sure that a project to capture VHS is the sort that would benefit from being that picky about the quality of the cables.

Could you elaborate on why you think I would benefit from getting better quality S-Video cables for this sort of project? Are you sure that Monster Cable products are that bad? Perhaps your experience was an anomaly. Or perhaps their designs have changed. I have certainly heard about Monster Cable being overpriced, and the quality not being the absolute best, yet I have not heard that they would be a weak link in a project like this.

More information is needed about this.

2. . . .What Virtualdub settings should I use for the highest quality captures? . . .option called "Noise Reduction" and one called "Filter Chain". . .

Most people advise this: never use filters when capturing, unless you're using a hardware device designed for real-time capture filtering (such as a proc amp). These are not cheap. Here's a basic guide to VirtualDub capture:
http://www.digitalfaq.com/guides/video/capture-avi-virtualdub.htm
This one's more complicated, and with other info on filters for VirtualDub/AviSynth:
http://www.doom9.org/index.html?/capture/start.html

By the way, keep you VCR's TBC turned on, but turn off the noise filter (too blurry) and the sharpener (at this stage, you're sharpening noise and making it more difficult to clean).

Do you have experience with these Panasonic S-VHS players? I am just wondering if you are making generalized statements or if your advice is specific to these players. Should I slide the "picture" slider all the way to "soft" or leave it in the default position between soft and sharp?

3. ...Should I be using Huffyuv as an uncompressed format, or are other formats superior? I am thinking specifically of Lagarith, as I have been hearing quite a few good things about it.

Huffyuv and lagarith are video compressors. If you want uncompressed video, don't use a compressor. Lagarith is too slow for real-time capture and compression. Huffyuv was designed with that purpose in mind.

Do any of these formats differ in picture quality?

No difference. Huffyuv and lagarith aren't "formats". They're compressors.

4. Are there specific settings for the ATI capture card ...

No. Your ATI card just fetches the image to be used by VirtualDub, not to capture. ATI's capture utility was OK in its day, but you can do better with VirtualDub.

5. ... What should the bitrate be for best quality? Is it a case of higher equals better?

That's usually the case, but consider this bitrate table, copied in one form or another by many other sites (Go to the bottom of this page): http://www.digitalfaq.com/guides/video/introduction-record-capture.htm

6. I have discovered during this project that I am not very good at restoring video and using filters. ... do you leave the filters for serious problem tapes or do you filter nearly every tape to some degree?

Every tape. Image correction involves a learning process. From my experience and from the teachings of others, the most important elements in image correction are:
(a) learn to recognize defects and what causes them.
(b) learn the basics of RGB color, and develop an eye for three basic hues: black, gray, and white.
(c) Don't try to correct color by eyeball alone. The eye knows if a color isn't "right", but often the brain can't explain exactly why. Is an image too green because there's too much green, or because there's not enough magenta? Learn to use histograms. In color work, they're your best friend.
(d) Working on an uncalibrated monitor is a waste of time and effort.
(e) Accept the fact that VHS color isn't as accurate or clean as digital. Do what you can.

Visit photography sites for free tutorials on how to analyze with histograms. These sites are aimed at still photos but the principles apply to all graphics. Another helpful site with a general overview of reading contrast levels with histograms:
http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials/histograms1.htm
With video, you'll need histograms that also help analyze luminance and RGB colors. This site discusses the RGB histogram in the ColorTools VirtualDub plugin: http://trevlac.us/colorCorrection/histo.html
And here's the essential plugin with histogram, vectorscope, and waveform monitor all-in-one:
http://trevlac.us/colorCorrection/colorTools.html
Download the plugin here: http://trevlac.us/colorCorrection/clrtools.vdf

The Doom9 capture guide has an article on vectorscopes and waveforms. Go here, bottom half of the page: http://www.doom9.org/capture/digital_video_color.html

This is extremely helpful. I am a little confused about how to correct color problems. I kind of understand denoisers and sharpeners and things like that because I can easily see when the image gets better but when I adjust the color if looks "different" but I don't know if it looks better.

Your advise seems to focus a lot on color. Is that one of the primary things you focus on when you filter VHS footage?

What are your favorite filters to use for VHS tapes? Which ones do you use for nearly all VHS captures and which ones do you use for specific problem tapes?

You have a VHS tape that isn't a "problem"? VHS is a problem, period.

I have a few favorite AviSynth plugins, but for VHS I work almost exclusively in VirtualDub (RGB) and with the advanced color filters in TMPGenc 2.5. But don't let anyone turn you off to AviSynth. I've done miraculous things with it, but only after much disappointment and some consultation with AviSynth gurus.

Okay. Could you elaborate on the "advanced color filters" you use with TMPGEnc? And could you use them and still encode with CCE? Why do they offer something that cannot be achieved with Virtualdub filters?

- NeatVideo. Essential. Lovers of AviSynth say you can get results just as good (assuming you know C++, have a degree in video engineering, and can speak Russian and assembler). Read the manual. All of it. People who criticize NeatVideo either don't read or can't. Learn to use the Advanced interface. Experiment. Never use NeatVideo default values. Repeat, never. They're too strong. This is a spatio-temporal filter in one. Can be used with AviSynth.

Yes, I have used NeatVideo a little and although I haven't figured it out completely, I can certainly see the enormous potential. It certainly seems like the best denoiser available.

- VirtualDub temporal smoother (built-in). Handy, doesn't cause too much trouble. Avoid settings of 5 or greater, or it smears just like all other temporal filters.

What does it actually do? And what are your thoughts on Jim Casaburi's Temporal Cleaner filter? I have seen that recommended for VHS work here and elsewhere, yet I haven't seen a good explanation of what it does.

- ColorTools. See the link above.

- Gradation Curve plugin. Similar to Photoshop/Premiere gradation curve, and can import Photoshop curve settings. Here's a tutorial: http://members.chello.at/nagiller/vdub/tutorial/tutorial.html
Download here: http://members.chello.at/nagiller/vdub/gradation.zip

- You must be able to read RGB pixel values, or you're grasping at straws. csamp is a standalone executable, no install. Just copy to your desktop and click on its little icon. When you move your mouse, it reads pixel colors under the cursor. While it's running it looks like this:

[Attachment 7515 - Click to enlarge]
Download at http://www.netreach.net/~gavin/gavsfreeware/csamp.htm .

- Color Mill (RGB, Levels, Saturation, Gamma) at http://fdump.narod.ru/rgb.htm
- RGB Equalizer (Precise 17-point RGB adjust) at http://fdump.narod.ru/equalizer.htm

For more VirtualDub and AviSynth plugins than you can shake a stick at, see http://neuron2.net/ . Veteran AviSynth gurus can help with more, or browse the AviSynth Usage forum at http://forum.doom9.org/index.php .

Thanks for the advise. I am trying to balance my desire for doing the best job I can, with the reality of getting this project done in a relatively timely manner. As you have said, becoming an expert in video restoration can take many years. I want to do the best that I can but I also want to learn in stages, so that I can find out which filters can be understood and applied by a non-expert to achieve good results and what will have the greatest impact to the non-critical eye.

What is your opinion of NeatVideo? I have used it but I worry about some of these de-noisers that am losing too much detail. What is your experience?

I repeat: never use their default or sample values. All denoisers destroy detail to some extent. Take a hard, close look at any VSH video: at least 40% of what you see is noise, not "detail". VHS can't look like DVD or film. I've seen NeatVideo clean compression artifacts and chroma noise, but most people over-filter -- and not just with NeatVideo. If NV is good enough for the pros, it's good enough for me. But ya gotta tweak.

Do you advise that I combine NeatVideo with a good sharpener to restore some detail? And, can you give me some conservative settings I might try out in NeatVideo that would give solid results in most VHS footage?

How do you balance the desire for improving quality with the reality of how long it takes to encode video with a lengthy filter chain?

Good work takes time. Lengthy filter chains? If you're using a heavy load of filters, it's time to rethink your methods. Too many filters create new problems.

I understand but I have seen many here, including people like LordSmurf, who talk about using multiple filters which take well over ten hours per hour of video to encode. Now, this may be referring to specific work and not the average tape, but it seems that many highly skilled individuals are using fairly complex filter chains to achieve good results. I do get that over-filtering can cause problems.

Could you give me an example of a Virtualdub filter chain you would use VHS work? I have been given a lot of suggestions about filters to try, but I wonder about which ones work well together and which order they should be applied. Also, some have said that you should use the internal "deinterlace (unfold)" filter before certain filters followed by "deinterlace (fold)". I don't understand that exactly.

But if you could provide some examples of virtualdub filter chains you use for VHS work, it would be extremely helpful.

For good quality video that has been captured with good hardware, do you tend to leave it untouched if it has no glaring problems?

I've had a few tapes, maybe 5 or 6, with good equipment and care, that made passably clean transfers to DVD with little trouble. But that's 6 tapes out of more than 200.

I see.

Are there any good resources to learn more about restoring video and using filters for VHS tapes?

I think VideoHelp is unique, with so much info and so many experts in one place. browsing here can eat some time. The Doom9 forum is helpful, but frankly most of it is either over my head or outta my free-time zone. Like most members,. I just keep looking, farther and farther back into the archives...2004, 2002, . . .

Thanks for all your advise.

[2Bdecided]

The best encoding quality is using max rate CBR, giving you one hour per DVD.

You don't have any home movie footage that anyone wants to sit and watch for more than an hour. Five minutes is most people's tolerance level (unless they've very polite / drunk).


Depending on the signal faults, you can sometimes dramatically improve VHS quality in AVIsynth, but it'll take you forever to decide what's best (hundreds of options, slow to experiment), and a long time to process it. You can easily make it look worse (typically, like plastic / cartoon) if you get it wrong. It's very easy to get it wrong in Neat Video too.

Therefore, archive the original captures, make quick-and-dirty DVDs to watch (no processing, max bitrate), and then return to the task of improving them when all transferring is finished. Otherwise you will spend your life in AVIsynth after transferring the first tape.

For now, making sure the levels are correct, the TBC is doing it's job, there are no dropped fames, and the AV-synch is right - these are the most important things.


Editing the footage is very important. Did I mention that no one really wants to watch more than five minutes of it? Your relatives will thank you far more for just showing them the most interesting bits than for removing a bit of noise and making them watch the whole lot.


If you want some specific advice on what might work with your footage, you need to post some samples. No one knows what your VHS looks like.

Hope this helps.

Cheers,
David.

[sanlyn]

Monster had some of the best cables .... 15 years ago.
Now? No.

True. I use a few survivors from the early 1990's. SInce then, the brand is a big disappointment

[sanlyn]

jrodefeld, my remarks on cables aren't critical. Many people ain't so picky. They're satisfied if they connect a cable and can see and hear something. To paraphrase an old parochial saying, many people wouldn't know the difference between a clean image and a hole in the ground.

The noise reduction filters in VCRs are simple blurring filters; they don't "remove" noise; mostly, they just blur it. If you add sharpening you sharpen a blur, but it's still a blur. VirtualDub and AviSynth denoisers are more sophisticated. Besides, if you apply those VCR filters during playback and don't like the results, the only way to remove the effects is to recapture. The default for the Panasonic's sharpener is the mid position. Hint: all Panasonic VCRs (and some other premium brands) do a little internal doctoring on output anyway, regardless of the settings you make.

To address some of your concerns (can't get to all of them):

I don't own your VCR (I have 4 of my own from the 1990's), but a friend of mine owned one when they were brand-new in the U.S. I sat thru many capture sessions with him. It's superior to lesser machines, but the source medium is still VHS. Even with a perfect player, tape itself has imperfections that are common to VHS no matter which VCR records or plays it. At least a premium VCR inflicts less damage on output than a cheap one, but it's not a cure-all.

Insecurity about many areas of capture and restoration come simply from inexperience. For instance, you used the term "filter chain" concerning NeatVideo. The filter isn't a chain; it's almost always used alone, without other filters. It has more than a dozen settings (which most people don't bother to investigate, so no wonder they get poor results). The user guide is a PDF that can be downloaded without trying the product (http://www.neatvideo.com/userguide.html). A 10-minute quick browse answers many questions. There's a help page with more info at http://www.neatvideo.com/howtos.html .

The Doom9 capture guide is extensive, as you can see from the table of contents referenced earlier at http://www.doom9.org/index.html?/capture/start.html. You won't have immediate use for much of that information (such as anime or frame rate conversion), but you'd want to take a look at sections on how and why to use a few popular VirtualDub and AviSynth filters.

Color: I do a lot of DVD recording off digital cable. I've never had to work color or level adjustments on those recordings. The download page for the gradation filter has many examples of adjustments you can make with that filter. Websites post many examples of the way curve filters are used in Photoshop. You stated you made color adjustments and saw a change but you don't know what changed. If you want to know what color is supposed to look like, look around you. White clouds on a bright day are white, not yellow. Black shoes are black or very dark grays, not dark green or dark blue. Your home videos have shots of people; look at their skin tones. If your wife looks yellowy or orange, something's wrong (and from VHS you'll see poor skin tone almost all the time).

I use the csamp pixel sampler to read pixel values in VirtualDub and elsewhere. If you place your mouse cursor on the pixels of a bright white shirt, the RGB values for white should all be the same or nearly so. A bright white shirt might have RGB values in the range of R-210/G-210/B-210. If the brightest, directly lighted RGB reading of that shirt are R-210/G-210/B-185, that shirt will have a yellow tinge because it's deficient in Blue (yellow = Red + Green). Most color correction tutorials on the web will cover this kind of information. Your guide for "correct" color should be the color you see in the real world.

This doesn't mean noise is no less a problem with VHS. A pristine retail VHS has noise, even it's only grain and streaks from the magnetic oxide layer riding across the video heads. The Doom9 guide has examples of noise and suggestions for fixing it.

Your effort involves a learning curve. Just "looking around" will take you a long way. The restoration forum has hundreds of discussions and examples of problem videos. To post examples of every problem you might encounter would be like duplicating thousands of posts from this forum.

TMPGenc: the encoder I use most is TMPGenc Plus 2.5, an oldie that's still sold at TMPGenc. I also use CinemaCraft (CCE Basic). There's much hot debate pro and con for both encoders. Most people speak of TMPGenc in its newer version; IMHO the newer encoder is inferior, but it does handle HD.

The following screen captures are reduced from their original size:

Since you ask, here's the advanced settings menu for TMPgenc 2.5. There are 5 tabs, and many submenus on each tab. The "Advanced tab has color and other controls:

[Attachment 7527 - Click to enlarge]

Here's the Advanced color window, showing filters I normally use. You can add or remove filters from the chain. The filters with the boxes checked are active; if unchecked, the filter is disabled. The preview screen shows the original video frame size, 352x480.

[Attachment 7528 - Click to enlarge]

The video started here: a cap from the original unprocessed DVD capture. The source tape has been lost. A perfect example of how NOT to store tape, how NOT to play it, how NOT to capture, and why certain frame sizes (452x480) and certain ridiculously low bitrates (a measly 2500 mbps) should NOT be used for damaged VHS. The tape was a horror, stored in hot and humid conditions for years. A green stain at top, red stain on the right. Does it look like too much green? No: the image is badly faded from heat damage, and Blue is crippled. Fine detail? Forget it; at this frame size and low bitrate, the damaged VHS had more "detail" than the capture. Contrast levels from the cheap capture device show blown-out highlights (check the white clothing and highlights on the central male's forehead). Once you blow away lights and darks, they're gone forever. An effective TBC was used on the DVD recorder (this was VHS-direct-to-DVD. Do NOT do this with bad tape!). There are terrible motion artifacts, streaks and "wiggles" you can't see in a single still capture. This is an original shot before AviSynth, Tweak, ColorYUV, NeatVideo, gradation curves, or any other work. I call it the capture from hell.

[Attachment 7529 - Click to enlarge]

This is the advanced interface in NeatVideo that many users never see. The grunt work is in the settings on the right. Note that some of the filters are powered down from defaults. You have to do some fiddling here. The hi-frequency filters are down; this capture has so little fine detail, you have to be careful. Most of the worst noise is mid- and low-frequency temporal noise.

[Attachment 7530 - Click to enlarge]

Another shot from the original capture from hell. Hundreds of frames look like this.

[Attachment 7531 - Click to enlarge]

Here's a 12-second clip from the original DVD capture, to give you an idea of what we were dealing with (left-click to play, or right-click to download. Free, no password, no wait). There's NO LEFT-CHANNEL AUDIO in the capture (!). NTSC MPEG, 352x480, 12 seconds, 4-MB:
http://dc181.4shared.com/download/7SlcvoJF/A_A01a9_original.mpg

Fixes included AviSynth scripts, BadFrames.dll, Tweak, ColorYUV, NeatVideo, Color Mill, temp smoother, and I don't remember what else. Still working on this scene: the stage lighting is a high contrast amber spot, but here it's overly sharpened and still needs work with what little detail exists and with noise in the dark background. NTSC MPEG, 352x480, 12 seconds, 5.2-MB:
http://dc181.4shared.com/download/bnW8D7HX/D_A01a9_newframe.mpg

Here's a capture from a damaged tape of the movie "Lili". This one is from one of my first NeatVideo ventures. The original was faded, noisy and streaky, way too blue, had ugly chroma noise in facial shadows and green highlights. It's an example of over-filtering; I should have lowered all the NeatVideo settings by 20%. Live and learn. Huffyuv AVI capture via Panasonic PV-8662 and Toshiba RD-X2 as TBC pass-thru. Trivia: composite cable from the VCR was Belden 1695a (that's "Belden", not "Belkin"), s-video was the cable I suggested. Gradation curve for color, contrast, etc., and Flaxen's VirtualDub "VHS" filter for some color bleed. Sorry, the original AVI is in storage somewhere.

[Attachment 7532 - Click to enlarge]

Spend some time looking thru the links and sources offered. Many members here began with these sources. Try posting some of your problem captures for suggestions. You have to start somewhere.

[themaster1]

Monster cable all the way for me . 0.75cm max length

[smartel]

You better pay for the product , not the brand

does that make sens ?

[sanlyn]

Could you give me an example of a Virtualdub filter chain you would use VHS work? I have been given a lot of suggestions about filters to try, but I wonder about which ones work well together and which order they should be applied. Also, some have said that you should use the internal "deinterlace (unfold)" filter before certain filters followed by "deinterlace (fold)". I don't understand that exactly.

But if you could provide some examples of virtualdub filter chains you use for VHS work, it would be extremely helpful.

For a VHS in good or just fair shape, (this would not include the capture from hell!), I start with a huffyuv YUY2 AVI of the entire video (around 30-GB) and PCM audio. I use VirtualDub to split that video into 8 to 10-minute segments, so I can store my original capture on 4.7 GB discs. I do this also because it's likely the video will be broken into shorter clips due to scene mismatches and segments that need extra work. You can cut video into chunks with AviSynth, but I prefer to do it in VirtualDub. I make my cuts in VirtualDub, set "Video" and "Audio" to "direct stream copy", and save.

Because critical color work should be done in RGB (correcting color entirely in YUV is a hassle) I load the video segments into VirtualDub via AviSynth with this or a similar AviSynth script:

avisource("[Type the full path of your AVi here, inside quotes]")
assumetff    # # # <- tell AviSynth your video is interlaced, top frame first, if it so formatted
ConvertToRGB32(matrix="Rec601",interlaced=true)    # # # the "Rec" version is up to you. 601 is the SD standard.

Within that script you can do other AviSynth processing if you want.

When I work with individual segments I first audition a denoiser. Some people use denoisers along with other filters. I don't. I prefer temporal denoisers; because these filters examine a sequence of frames, color filters and other processes interfere with what the denoiser sees. You can make up your own mind about that, but I get get better results using temporal denoisers in a separate run.

The denoiser I choose depends on the video. If temporal smoother or a simple AviSynth filter is sufficient, there's no sense using more denoisers or NeatVideo. If the video is really grungy, you have to choose AviSynth or VirtualDub denoisers by trial and error. But I denoise first, then go to color later.

If I use NeatVideo, I don't need a sharpener. NV has a very good one built-in (optional). After denoising, I almost always use the ColorTools filter to see what's going with the color and contrast. The usual filters are ColorMill and the gradation curve. Adjust brightness, contrast, and midtones before addressing color; changes in these elements will affect your perception of colors. You can chain multiple instances of both filters in the same run. You'll have to disable the histogram to preview your changes. Be sure to disable ColorTools if it's still "on" when you save, or you'll save a video of your histogram! I sometimes add the Flaxen "VHS" filter to help with displaced colors. but I don't use that filter's other features. I almost never use sharpeners, and don't need one with NeatVideo.

I sometimes find use for VirtualDub's FadeFX filter (fade to black, fade from black, etc.). AviSynth has a similar function. You should always run such a filter last in the chain. If a color filter comes after your fade to black in the chain, the black might not be black any more.

When I load the AVI into TMPGenc (it works in RGB), I apply a few tweaks if needed, often a ghost filter to help with chroma displacement or mild ghosting. On many occasions I've gone directly from a NeatVideo run to TMPGenc's image controls, bypassing VirtualDub filters. In VirtualDub and TMPGenc you can save your filter settings. I always do.

Then I render to MPEG as separate video and PCM audio. The next step is to assemble the various clips in TMPGenc Editor, which also is used to convert PCM to Dolby AC3. The advantage with PCM audio is that you don't want to do any audio processing in a compressed format like Layer-2 or AC3. TMPGenc editors don't convert to Dolby until after they've made any audio mods you might want, such as volume, cleanup, or fades. The audio cables I use for capture are pretty good, so I seldom need audio cleanup.

Noise and color filter settings depend on the video. What works on one part of a video might not work well on another. Something like the capture from hell requires multiple runs, special utilities and scripts, multiple NeatVideo passes, over 300 separate clips, until you get sick of watching it and need a week off. Normally I wouldn't fiddle with something like that nightmare, but I just wanted a viewable copy of a beautiful operatic performance. If a video has special meaning for you, you'll do all you can. Remember that some VHS problems just can't be fixed.

[jrodefeld]

Monster had some of the best cables .... 15 years ago.
Now? No.

Would you advise that I upgrade the cables for this project? I never had any illusion that these were the best available, but I did assume that they would be more than adequate for this project, especially considering the source is VHS.

But if you think I could do with different cables I could certainly get something different.

[jrodefeld]

The best encoding quality is using max rate CBR, giving you one hour per DVD.

You don't have any home movie footage that anyone wants to sit and watch for more than an hour. Five minutes is most people's tolerance level (unless they've very polite / drunk).

I'm not sure about that. Putting more than an hour's worth on a dvd does not imply that anyone will be forced to watch the whole thing in one sitting. Plus, I have a lot of tapes which are actually quite interesting, some trips overseas and some very interesting footage that I can imagine might be worth watching more than an hour's worth.

Are you saying one hour per dvd for double layer media? I would hope to get at least 90 minutes per disc given the number of hours I have to encode.

Should I be doing multiple pass CBR? Or single pass?

Depending on the signal faults, you can sometimes dramatically improve VHS quality in AVIsynth, but it'll take you forever to decide what's best (hundreds of options, slow to experiment), and a long time to process it. You can easily make it look worse (typically, like plastic / cartoon) if you get it wrong. It's very easy to get it wrong in Neat Video too.

Therefore, archive the original captures, make quick-and-dirty DVDs to watch (no processing, max bitrate), and then return to the task of improving them when all transferring is finished. Otherwise you will spend your life in AVIsynth after transferring the first tape.

For now, making sure the levels are correct, the TBC is doing it's job, there are no dropped fames, and the AV-synch is right - these are the most important things.

I agree that those are the most important issues. However, encoding times are not really a concern for me but I do worry about making the footage look worse. However, most here have advocated running at least some filters on every VHS capture. I do agree that obsessing over every little option will not be smart, however by judicious use of a few filters with conservative settings I believe I could significantly improve the quality of most of the video I have.

Editing the footage is very important. Did I mention that no one really wants to watch more than five minutes of it? Your relatives will thank you far more for just showing them the most interesting bits than for removing a bit of noise and making them watch the whole lot.

Sure. I have no problems with the editing part of the equation. I also have very nice looking motion menus and cover designs. I am quite good at that part of it. I am very concerned about getting the best quality I reasonably can from the video. It might not bother others, but I still want to do the best job I can.

If you want some specific advice on what might work with your footage, you need to post some samples. No one knows what your VHS looks like.

Hope this helps.

Cheers,
David.

I will upload some samples shortly.

[sanlyn]

Monster had some of the best cables .... 15 years ago.
Now? No.

Would you advise that I upgrade the cables for this project? I never had any illusion that these were the best available, but I did assume that they would be more than adequate for this project, especially considering the source is VHS.

But if you think I could do with different cables I could certainly get something different.

I wouldn't say it's necessary. Cables are parts that people seem to seem to gradually accumulate, even when they're satisfied with what they have. I can say this for certain: you could easily have done much worse. Most s-video cables throw an even softer image than a lot of cheap composite wire, and Monster is much better than the even-cheaper s-video wire that comes in the box with recorders and players. In my Quest for the Holy Grail of S-Video Wire I once tried a pricey silver-coated model on the 'net, and even dared spend $9 for Home Depot's version. Complete waste. Monster's s-video at least has good sharpness and decent contrast, probably better than the others in your local store. I shouldn't worry.

[sanlyn]

Should I be doing multiple pass CBR? Or single pass?

Multi-pass VBR. Here's your answer: http://www.visiblelight.com/tips/vbr.aspx

[2Bdecided]

Are you saying one hour per dvd for double layer media?

No, two hours double layer. One hour single layer / two hours double layer is maximum bitrate (i.e. maximum quality) for DVD - you can't fit less on a disc without leaving part of it unused. You can't fit more on without decreasing the quality.

Careful use of VBR allows you to decrease the bitrate in easy-to-encode sections that don't require such a high bitrate to look OK. This lets you fit more on a disc without a visible drop in quality.

Sometimes VHS home movies have no such easy-to-encode sections.

Should I be doing multiple pass CBR? Or single pass?

Single pass - you can't multipass CBR - it just uses all the available bits all the time.

However, most here have advocated running at least some filters on every VHS capture.

That's what I do But I keep the original captures too, so have nothing to lose (except tweaking and processing time).

Cheers,
David.

[lordsmurf]

The noise reduction filters in VCRs are simple blurring filters; they don't "remove" noise; mostly, they just blur it..

That's not accurate.

[lordsmurf]

Panasonic S-VHS AG-1970 player as a source. I am running a Monster Cable S-Video cable to the Cypress CTB-100G Time Base Corrector and then running a second Monster Cable S-Video cable to the ATI TV Wonder 650 capture card. I am capturing in huffyuv.

Good.

. What settings should I set on the Panasonic S-VHS player? Currently, I have set the internal TBC to "on", and the noise filter to "on", and the input select to "S-Video", and the S-VHS switch to "on". I also have the picture slider (soft to sharp) set in the middle or slightly to the sharp side. Does all of this sound right? What would you recommend for settings on the Panasonic S-VHS player itself?

S-VHS switch only matters for recording.
TBC on, good.
Sharpen slider on Panasonic is already oversharp on middle setting.
Adding sharpness creates more noise for MPEG encoding, not good. Don't butcher video by oversharpening.

In capture mode under the "video" tab there is an option called "Noise Reduction" and one called "Filter Chain". What do these do? Is the noise reduction setting effective when capturing? Under "Filter Chain" the options are either "Enable" or "Skip 24-bit Conversion". Do any of these merit enabling or using in any way?

Don't.

hen I will filter (if necessary) and encode to Mpeg2 with high quality software. Am I correct in assuming that this will yield the best possible end quality from VHS capture?

Yes, best.

Should I be using Huffyuv as an uncompressed format, or are other formats superior? I am thinking specifically of Lagarith, as I have been hearing quite a few good things about it. However, file size is not a concern for me given that I bought a 2TB external hard drive specifically for this project. Do any of these formats differ in picture quality?

Don't change.
Huffyuv same as Lagarith, but Huffyuv larger and quicker to decode.

I have been sticking with the defaults

Stay.

4. Are there specific settings for the ATI capture card that I should consider? I haven't done anything except install drivers and start virtualdub. The software for ATI hardware can be difficult to navigate so I just haven't bothered. But I know that ATI cards are very popular around here for VHS capture projects, so I want to know if any of you have any suggestions or considerations that are specific to these cards that affect image quality.

No, not when using VirtualDub. Nothing else to know.
Good card, yes.

Is Cinema Craft Encoder the best Mpeg2 encoder that I can use in terms of image quality

No. CCE adds noise. Good related post: Is CCE the best MPEG encoder?
MainConcept is better, Procoder is better.

I am using interlaced 29.97 footage (obviously), so should the pulldown be set to 2:3 or 3:2? What about Inverse 3:2?

No pulldown, no IVTC, leave as interlaced.

What should the bitrate be for best quality?

Bitrate chart, bottom of this page: Introduction to Recording Digital Video

What about more advanced settings like Luminance Level and Quantization Scale? Or Block scan order?

If you have to ask, leave it alone.

I hope some of the knowledgeable folks here (like LordSmurf) would be kind enough to impart some of their wisdom on this thread to assist a relative newbie at capturing VHS tapes and restoring the image to prepare them for DVD's I am making.

To find me for help, post at here and ask for me in the body of the message. Or if you post at VH, you'll have to PM me, as I don't see all threads. Anytime I come across a VH thread where somebody wanted my assistance, and I wasn't PM'd, it was just dumb luck.

[lordsmurf]

I find it a little hard to believe that VHS caps don't need at least some filtering.

It's possible to pre-process enough via hardware to not need any software work.
I do it all the time.

At the same time, people do have a tendency to over-process digital video in software.

[sanlyn]

The noise reduction filters in VCRs are simple blurring filters; they don't "remove" noise; mostly, they just blur it..

That's not accurate.

I'm open to correction, LS, no problem. I refer to the typical "noise reduction" playback filter. Many just seem like blurring to me. Some VCR's have y/c, comb, and "3d" filters, some JVC's have their digital output NR filters; I see these as more sophisticated. I refer to typical "noise reduction", often a simple spatial filter, and I seem to recall that's what this Panny has. But I'm making an assumption here (you know how those turn out) and a vast generalization (and you know how those turn out).

[lordsmurf]

I just didn't want anybody to get the wrong impression.

There's a lot of filters in the high-end S-VHS VCRs, and even the ones that "blur" only do so within a small range, and even then only to part of the signal (chroma or luma, rarely both). Some also appear to do temporal blending (Panasonic, not JVC). Some attack more complex signal aspect, such as chroma removal via TBC NR combo circuitry.

Lower-end Panasonic (like multisystem) had NR that just blurs. It's more like a sharpness knob on a TV, that can be cranked up or down. You can see it performing as such simply by watching the screen. I'd have to say these are more rare than not, mostly found on exotic VCRs that were not pro quality (or claimed to be and were not).

Consumer VCRs did the other way -- the "detail enhancer" junk that made tapes grainy. Like sharpness knob on steroids, and + values only. Butcher work.

I've not seen an AG-1970 to date, but you may be correct that this particular VCR blurs for an NR switch, like the AG-W3.

[sanlyn]

Enlightening as usual, lordsmurf. Thank You.

[themaster1]

I just didn't want anybody to get the wrong impression.

There's a lot of filters in the high-end S-VHS VCRs, and even the ones that "blur" only do so within a small range, and even then only to part of the signal (chroma or luma, rarely both). Some also appear to do temporal blending (Panasonic, not JVC). Some attack more complex signal aspect, such as chroma removal via TBC NR combo circuitry.

Yeah good old 20th century algorythms developped with windows 1995
That good old unsharp mask to sharpen edges that's dating from way back in the days.

[jagabo]

There's a good reason many VCRs had such poor filtering -- it was all done in analog. There was no memory of previous scan lines, fields, or frames.

[Nelson37]

You are getting some very good advice from some very knowledgeable people. However, I am going to disagree with some of it.

I found thru multiple cards that ATI AIWs do NOT capture true to source without some adjustment. I tested this by Repeatedly playing a DVD thru a standalone player to TV, then removing same cable from TV and inserting in capture card, capture, burn a disk, return the cable to TV and playback again. Adjust sliders and repeat until both are identical.

DVD was best quality, easily repeatable source available at the time.

Similar testing with HDTV sources showed the same settings changes applied across both sources.

Do everything you can to make sure that the original capture is as identical to the source as possible. Check this at every possible point, using as nearly identical a playback chain as you can. Filtering at this stage is usually bad.

Make certain you test every element of the playback chain. You're using a TBC, and that's good. However, with some sources (tapes) it may actually make the problem Worse rather than Better. If you don't test for this, you'll never know.

If a $20 cable would help slightly, wouldn't you get one? If it doesn't help, you can always use an extra cable.

You could play a DVD from the PC to the TV and compare that with a captured AVI from the DVD. My old APEX dvd player would actually play a short uncompressed AVI file. Here, I would recommend also doing an MPG encode and test, I found that many encoders mute the colors just slightly.

On bitrate, fill the disk. What good is the empty space?

On encoding, multipass VBR. 3 pass if you can get it. Yes it takes time, but works while you're sleeping. 2 is better than 1, and 3 is better than 2, by a thinner margin. 4 or more is approaching overkill, but all it costs you is time. Sleep in.

On editing, no,no,no,no,no. And again, no. Sure, make a "highlight" reel for entertainment, but let me ask you this question - Say you had 5 minutes, and only 5 minutes, of film of your great-grandfather. Do you want to see every second, or just one minute of the "highlights", and lose the rest forever.

Nobody has even mentioned resolution yet? 720x480.

On the filter question, it's kinda like asking what type of seasoning to use on a piece of meat, and nobody knows if it's chicken, fish, beef, or pork. Burn it and use a lot of black pepper. Actually, that just might work every time.

[smartel]

does those adjustments for the ati cards vary from model to model ?
from chipset to chipset ? from card to card ??