BBMPEG Multiplexer Question

[Krelmaneck]

I was just wondering if BBMPEG ignores high audio VBR mp2's for SVCD specs? I read somewhere that SVCD SPECS can include a VBR mp2 up to 320 kbps 44.1 KHZ. BBMPEG seems to be accepting them as input BUT ignoring it while muletiplexing, thus just getting a video only no sound. BBMPEG has NO ISSUES playing a standard mp2 44.1 Khz CBR for SVCD. Those multiplex just fine. But BBMPEG does LIKES TO IGNORE a 320 KBPS 44.1 KHZ mp2 for SVCD. I just keep on getting no audio for those. And again, CBR works just fine.


Any theories? Keep in mind that I use all presets and do not change the settings in BBMPEG. I just make sure it is on SVCD. Now if I were to change FORCE MUX RATE (which is on the preset) would it STOP ignoring the audio even though it should accept it? Or does BBMPEG just LOVE TO IGNORE 320KPBS 44.1 KHZ mp2's VBR for SVCD? Please note, I do make sure that the VBR settings in the BBMPEG MUXER is NOT CHECKED at all times.


What audio was the source from? It was a ripped DVD from a VOBSET , so AC3 I have taken the direct approach using headac3 (AC3 to mp2 with VBR/SSRC downsample 44.1/VBR setting in options). No luck. I have tried the indirect approach ac3 to WAV(including ac3-wav) and then to mp2 using the famous Beesweet GUI and that does not work.

I just have a feeling BBMPEG is saying this: SCREW YOU! I AM NOT ACCEPTING ANY 320 KBPS 44.1 KHZ VBR mp2 for SVCD. SO DONT BOTHER TRYING YOU FOOLISH HUMAN BEING! GIVE ME CBR's AT 192 KBPS mp2 for SVCD, AND I WILL MAKE YOUR LIFE MUCH EASIER! LOL


SECOND THEORY: Maybe BBMPEG is doing the right thing. And maybe Headach3 is just giving me a headache saying "Look what I can do! I can make that VBR you want, but your Friend BBMPEG is not going to like it!





Please no smartalic questions/comments such as "Make dvds. They are better" OR "Dont bother with VBR in an mp2 for SVCD" That was not any of my questions. Thank you. But you still can be funny!

[Baldrick]

Make dvds. They are better.



Where did you read that it can contain VBR mp2? I have only read about vbr video.
And try multiplex with mplex and see how it handles vbr mp2.

[Cornucopia]

I'm not trying to be a smart alec, when I say, "Dont bother with VBR in an mp2 for SVCD". But it's true. The VCD spec and the SVCD spec DO NOT ALLOW for VBR in audio. VCD allows only CBR (both audio + video), and SVCD only allows VBR in video (CBR in audio).

You might be able to fool a muxer into actually muxing in a VBR audio, but it's ultimately purely a technical exercise, because no standard player is going to recognize it or understand what to do with it.

You've still got plenty of leeway with your choice of CBR rate, up to and including 320 (more if you're doing multichannel SVCD).
AS LONG AS IT IS "TO SPEC".

Scott

[Krelmaneck]

Make dvds. They are better.



Where did you read that it can contain VBR mp2? I have only read about vbr video.
And try multiplex with mplex and see how it handles vbr mp2.

Here is the link from wikipedia:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Video_CD



Here is the text VERBATIM:


BEGIN QUOTES
Audio

• Codec: MPEG-1 Audio Layer II
• Frequency: 44,100 hertz (44.1 kHz)
• Output: Monaural, dual channel, stereo, and multichannel support up to 5.1 output.
• Bit rate: from 32 to 384 kilobits per second, inclusive
  • Rate Control: Constant or Variable bit rate

As with most compact disc-based video formats, SVCD audio is incompatible with the DVD-Video standard due to the difference in frequency; DVDs require 48 kHz, whereas SVCDs use 44.1 kHz.
SVCDs may have two separate stereo, or four mono audio tracks (for commentary or additional languages).
Audio may have up to 6 channels (in a 5.1 arrangement) using the MPEG Multichannel surround sound format, although space constraints and inconsistent hardware support make it impractical, and very uncommon.
Variable bit rate encoding, while not supported by the MPEG-1 Audio Layer II standard, is part of the SVCD specification. However, variable bit rate audio is not consistently supported by standalone players, and thus the format is rarely used.


END QUOTES

You know what I should have read the second to last line:" Variable bit rate encoding, while not supported by the MPEG-1 Audio Layer II standard, is part of the SVCD specification. However, variable bit rate audio is not consistently supported by standalone players, and thus the format is rarely used."


If that IS SO, why is this article suggesting that it IS part of SVCD specs but not supported by the mp2 VBR? That is just wierd!

[aedipuss]

back when svcd was relevant 10 years ago i probably made a couple hundred, some even with 5.1 audio as my player could decode it, but never once used vbr audio. it wasn't even considered back then and there is no need for it now. the space savings would be miniscule.

[Cornucopia]

I've read the SVCD spec, and NOWHERE does it say that it supports VBR audio. VBR video yes, audio no. I think whoever added that bit into Wikipedia didn't understand the spec that well themselves.

Stop wasting your time. If you'd have done CBR it would be done by now, heck you'd probably have 20 of them done by now.

Scott

edit: just goes to show what happens when you believe everything Wikipedia says uncritically.

[Krelmaneck]

SVCD VBR AUDIO mp2 status: CASE CLOSED. Reason: Not achievable. Misleading information.



NEW CASE OEPN: Is there any VCD type of disc that excepts VBR audio mp2 as a track? Such as XVCD(which I heard could be a nightmare or untrustworthy) or CVD (China video disc) or at one time I thought I saw KVCD(but that could have been inside a dream)?

[aedipuss]

why bother? just recode your vbr audio to cbr.

[Krelmaneck]

why bother? just recode your vbr audio to cbr.

That was a smart alec remark.


This is a more professional opinion on what I think you meant to say. CVD and SVCD is a mixed bag. With CVD you can get near DVD quality video but will only have 35-40mins of video. Or you can used SVCD and get a little more than on the disc but have a little more sharpness to the picture. Both CVD and SVCD have the same audio specs really. And it would be nice to get 55 mins on one disc but not loose that DVD near quality or the VHS quality. CVD is the VHS quality. So either way, it is a mixed bag. Therefore, your point would be to just stick with CBR audio for any type of video disc. I know we did not talk about picture quality. But the reason why I brought it up is because it does equal your point of "why bother" simply because both have their pros and cons. And right now I see CVD as a CON even if you can get near DVD quality. The advantage of SVCD is the time thing for me. And since, SVCD sounds like the better bet, just stick with CBR.


Now, CVD would be a PRO if I could purchase a 99 min compact disc. That would mean I could encode at the DVD spec and get the 50 mins of video on a 99 min disc. Problem is: United States does not really mass sell 99min compact disc. They are rare. I have seen them online so far only.


So in conclusion, I am sticking with a 480 x 480 pic SVCD using QUENC and CBR audio.


Has anyone seen a 99 minute compact disc besides online?



About KVCD. I have not read anything up on KVCD. But that probably is a nightmare.

[manono]

why bother? just recode your vbr audio to cbr.

That was a smart alec remark.

No it wasn't. It was a common sense remark, and he used a lot fewer words in saying it than your nonsensical remarks in defense of what you're trying to do. And as Baldrick said earlier in response to your disclaimer, make a DVD instead. What you want to do was obsolete 5 years ago. BBMPEG? Give me a break.

[aedipuss]

Has anyone seen a 99 minute compact disc besides online?

well again you're too late to the party and have too little information. yes they were made, i have plenty i'd give away as they are worthless. IF they don't break your cd burner by causing the laser sled to move past it's designed limit, they played only to the normal size limit on standalones. so the extra minutes of video were lost.

[El Heggunte]

Regarding VBR in MP2 :

LayerII VBR is a complete hack - the ISO standard actually says that decoders are not required to support it. As a hack, its implementation is a pain to try and understand. If you’re mega-keen to get full range VBR working, either (a) send me money (b) grab the ISO standard and a C compiler and email me.

and

Why can’t the bitrate vary from 32kbps to 384kbps for every file?

According to the standard (ISO/IEC 11172-3:1993) Section 2.4.2.3

"In order to provide the smallest possible delay and complexity, the
decoder is not required to support a continuously variable bitrate when
in layer I or II. Layer III supports variable bitrate by switching the
bitrate index."

and

"For Layer II, not all combinations of total bitrate and mode are allowed."

Hence, most LayerII coders would not have been written with VBR in mind, and LayerII VBR is a hack. It works for limited cases. Getting it to work to the same extent as MP3-style VBR will be a major hack.

{
more info @: http://www.twolame.org/doc/vbr.html
}

[AlanHK]

Here is the link from wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Video_CD

Here is the text VERBATIM:

On the related Discussion page you will find:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Super_Video_CD#VBR_coding_support_in_Super_Video_CD
Which discusses the issue.

Apparently VBR IS in the standard; but hardware, and as you've found, software support is not good.


So even if you can hack a way of making them, they probably won't play on most players.
And with this being a legacy format, no one will be updating to support a theoretical feature that was never used in commercial VCDs.

If that IS SO, why is this article suggesting that it IS part of SVCD specs but not supported by the mp2 VBR? That is just wierd!

Any idiot can edit any Wikipedia article. I have myself.
So as Ronald Reagan said, "Trust, and verify".

Has anyone seen a 99 minute compact disc besides online?

Yes, here in Hong Kong. Golden Arcade, Sham Shui Po.

But I can buy a blank DVD for the same price.

I can buy a DVD burner for barely more than a CD burner.

People aren't taking you too seriously because putting video on CDs is just a pointless exercise.

[Cornucopia]

This is getting a little silly. I have in my posession, archived copies of BOTH those documents, and it's clear that VBR is NOT supported. What's also clear is that either the writer of those documents or the reader interpreting those documents doesn't have the best understanding of English and that is where the confusion arises.

If I say: (A) can do this but not that, and
(B) can do that but not this, but that
"it" IS able to do something else.

Your understanding of pronouns should lead you to assume the"it" refers to the most recently referred item (B) UNLESS IT IS CLEAR FROM THE CONTEXT THAT IT MUST REFER TO SOMETHING ELSE.

Ultimately, it really doesn't matter whether it doesn't work BY RULE or that it doesn't work IN PRACTICE. It doesn't work!

About 90 and 99min CDs: this is almost in the same category.
It's only by a cheating/stretching of the rules that they are even able to be made, but their bending away from compliance is so much that it is quite likely that machines will baulk at recognizing them correctly. Maybe you've lucked out with your CURRENT burner & reader/player, but what happens when those wear out - will your luck hold out? I wouldn't want to be MY material on such flimsy odds.


Scott

[Krelmaneck]

post deleted by user.


I have decided to end this conversation because I see my thinking is not welcomed here when it comes to old school enthusiast things. Heck, if the maker of TSCV made a new version to make it more user friendly adding more bells and whistles with a nice thick guidebook, I would be one of the only happy people, while rest of the people would be critical for no apparent reason! HA! So in being wise, I am ending this post. If anyone wants to REVIVE it and live on the SVCD REVOLUTION, Bring it on.


So, with being wise, can someone point me to the VCD enthusiast forum?

[Cornucopia]

I see you didn't do your homework when talking about VCD/SVCD enthusiasts. This site used to even be called "VCDHelp" (look at the logo in the corner, it's still there). And of the VCD/SVCD enthusiasts, I'v been one of the most enthusiastic and knowledgeable about the spec.

What's different, is you want the spec to do something it can't do, and when you get called on it, you cry "foul".

Plus, times have changed. VCD/SVCD got superceded by DVD years ago, and BD and other HD devices are in the process of superceding that. It's not just a matter of it being lower quality and OLD SCHOOL, it's becoming NOT SUPPORTED by many manufacturers now. Time to move on. It's like you're asking how to stretch an SLP VHS tape to 12 hours, or encode AC3 to a VHS and expect it to be ok.

Scott

[Krelmaneck]

My Phillips standalone which is only a few years old plays SVCD CD-R's. My first DVD player played SVCD CD-R's. And both of them would play an XIVD since it would bring up folder. If you selected an AVI xivid from the MP3 folder menu, it played them with no issues. Plus, it has Ultra Divx 6 built into the hardware of the player. It also supports jpeg pictures.


I still think at least for the next few years various standalone players will continue to play this type of media on CD-R's. Blu-Ray players are backward compatible with standard DVDs. And a Blu-ray player standalone may come out that is backward compatible with alot of formats including support for Divx. Divx in the us really never made it off the ground as standalone players(except with DVD standalones). But people continue to use Divx.


Like I have said earlier---I like to do this simply because it is not trendy. A lot of people do not know that you can put video on a CD. Most people think that compact disc can only have data or audio. People are shocked when they hear that.


And yes, my burner is a 16x DVD burner lightscribe Samsung drive. But I will continue to make SVCDs before I will continue to the next step--the DVD.


Note: I went to Goodwill and bought a JVC audio cassette deck. I have a vinyl player. Need a say more? Do i have a standalone DVD burner--NO. I dont have cable so I dont have a DVR. I have the OTA digital broadcast. Yes I could use a tuner card. But guess what? I dont have a tuner card. LOL. How do I record the shows I want? I dont know. most tv I have is from Itunes. I cant record my shows that are not off of itunes.


If you know of a good DVR that I can purchase and OWN that is lower than $1km tell me. I know with cable they make you PAY for RENTING of the DVR. That is messed up. But it is a good way for them to make money. I know there is TIVO. Now, with TIVO, there is no added fees, right? You can just go to bestbuy and purchase a tivo and there will be no subscription prices because you own the thing, right? Besides, maybe TIVO is not exactly a good DVR. Or maybe it is. I never owned one. But with BUNNY EARS, there is not a whole lot to DVR. I am gonig to KEEP my CRT monitor sometimes. The government should not be forcing me to spend more money on digital products. BRING BACK VHS. Or at least SVHS





VHS has the great feature of allowing you to append half hours shows and keep on hitting the stop tape until it ends. Plus if you have a t-160, you can keep on adding those shows on EP mode until the tape runs out. SVHS is the most ideal. With DVDs I am not sure if you can append to an already burned DVD. Lets say there are 26 episodes in a season. On a t-160, that can be almost 16 episodes of a half hour show. All you have to do is stop tape and continue on next time. On a DVD 4.5 gig, I guess your best bet would be to have your DVR record your 26 episodes IF IT CAN HOLD IT. Then burn your DVDr-s using a connection from your DVR box, and then do one huge session of burning maybe a couple disc. I never have done that so I would not know the amount. Then you can rip those DVD's and re-encode them to cut out commercials. And then have another set of DVDrs. That is NOT REAL. Ok. DVR to back of the computer IF you have a capture card and do it that way, then go through the process of burning the DVD's later. But the CONVENIENCE of what VHS offers is the ability to easily append to the tape until the tape finishes. You dont like that show? Ok. Re-record over the shows with the same tape again. I did not say that was going to get good quality. I know DATA can sometimes be appended. But I am not sure if DVDs can easily be appended with DVD video. In other words, I am not sure if a DVD standalone recorder can let you continue burning where you left off just like you can do with a tape. Now, there is also the DVD+- RW. Just like with a tape, you can only erase the disc or tape so many times, until you have to get a new one.




Now, the cat is out of the bag. But I want to put the cat back in the bag. So lets end this conversation for good because someone is most likely going to flame me for this topic.