Mpeg-2 editing confusion...

[amtt]

Greetings,

Im finally going to edit and burn to DVD, years worth of videos that are residing on various HDDs. They are .mod files that I converted to .mpg by simply re-naming. Im trying Videospin (Pinnacle) since its free and from a known company. So I took two files and simply joined them together and also took those same files and added a title, cut some scenes, and added transistions. All seems to have worked okay but I see that the new file size of both completed videos is considerably smaller. Two files @ 200mb became 136mb. Now I realize that mpeg is compressed but wasnt the original 200mb size already compressed? Im using .mpg to "DVD compatible" so Im assuming there isnt any re-rendering right? Should I get different software if I value picture quality above all else?

Im not trying to make professional looking videos but just want to cut them down, combine files so I can save them and watch them on a dvd player. Most are just family events etc.

Thanks, Art

[poisondeathray]

It sounds like you are re-encoding it (losing quality)

You need an editor that "smart renders" MPEG2. (i.e. something that passes through untouched segments, only things like transitions, titles are re-rendered). For example, Womble MPEG DVD Wizard, or Sony Vegas

Unfortunately there are no free programs that smart render MPEG2 - so you end up incurring generation loss on the entire thing instead of just tiny sections

You can losslessly cut with free tools like mpg2cut2 (not frame accurate, GOP accurate) , but cannot apply transitions , titles, effects, etc...

[PuzZLeR]

It sounds to me too like a re-encoding. You are wasting PC resources this way and killing quality. Yeah, "Pinnacle" is a known name, but it's a known bad product name. Stop using it.

And they're not "just family events" - they are precious. Don't hurt them with a sub-par product.

Yes, I too second Womble MPEG Video Wizard, along with VideoReDo and TMPGEnc MPEG Editor. All are MPEG dedicated editors - they will cut/join losslessly and spit out an untouched stream. They will only re-encode the few frames where you make cuts or joins, or fades/transitions (with Womble).

Unfortunately none are free but, whichever one or three you choose, each of them is a good product and worth purchasing. Mpg2Cut2, is free, but I personally find it too awkward and would annoy me for large amounts of edits - but if I remember it is frame accurate (don't care anyway).

@PDR: Vegas does MPEG-2 smart renders? Don't use it myself but I heard it re-encodes everything MPEG in the timeline. You sure?

[poisondeathray]

@PDR: Vegas does MPEG-2 smart renders? Don't use it myself but I heard it re-encodes everything MPEG in the timeline. You sure?

The Pro version does for sure, since version 9 . It's even advertised by Sony as a "feature". Not sure about other versions of Vegas

The "gotcha" is that it has to be configured properly to work (everything has to match in the export options: fps, frame rate, field order, bitrate, audio sample rate etc.. even a little bit off will cause it to fail and re-render everything), whereas Womble is no-nonsense for smart rendering

[PuzZLeR]

Thanks for the answer - didn't know you can do this with Vegas.

But I guess Vegas would sound like too much for the passive user that only needs to work with MPEG when there are easier and cheaper solutions.

However it is a nice feature for the Vegas faithful, which was why it was likely implemented in the first place, not to attract MPEG people.

[amtt]

Thanks for the info. I was wondering about the re-encoding situation but couldnt find any info as to whether it was being done or not. The Videospin forum is a joke and I didnt bother asking there.

I took a quick look at the above software and see that some versions have DVD authoring and some dont. I have downloaded DVD Flick but havent tried it yet. Is it a poor performer too, being freeware? Looks like TMPGEnc MPEG Editor requires a separate authoring program but Womble Video Wizard doesnt. And Womble Mpeg VCR is a no frills editor but is only $20. Would using an all-in-one package be preferable or not necessarily?

Art

[netmask56]

A good investment would be to have Womble to edit your MPEG2 files and VSO ConvertXtoDVD as your authoring program. It is quite versatile with the range of file types it accepts and is quick (depending on your computer).

[dylz]

I think mpg2cut2 is gop accurate as it cannot cut on each frame if you want a frame accurate freewar use cuttermaran it uses quenc to re-encode the few frames so it can cut on b or p frames not just I frames.
Note: it won't work unless you have elementary streams .m2v and .mp2 or .mp3, if you have mpeg-ps demux it using project x

quenc is needed download from video help tools.

[PuzZLeR]

If you can score Womble for $20 - grab it! It's an awesome tool for MPEG editing and DvD authoring.

Yes, VideoReDo and Womble have DvD authoring tools built-in. They are not as feature rich though, but get the job done well.

TMPGEnc MPEG Editor is available in the same package as TMPGEnc DvD Author if you want DvDs after the edits. However, as separate stand-alone apps, it comes with the better DvD author tool of all three.

All three choices are excellent and don't let the price fool you - I have all of them and use them sparingly (I got one free in a giveaway from the company). All are frame accurate, reliable and can do batches.

Distinctions:

VideoReDo - great interface and navigation if you do lots of cuts on the same source (ex: commercials). Can author.

TMPGEnc - great for quick cuts/joins, muxes, audio shift. Awkward for navigation. TMPEGnc DvD Author is the best author tool of all three as mentioned.

Womble can do more such as fades, transitions, etc on top of cuts/joins. Can author too. However some output may need one remuxing to fix GOPs when using transitions, etc. Still awesome.

Don't get me wrong, alot of free tools are excellent in other tasks but for this department they're lacking IMO.

[PuzZLeR]

A good investment would be to have Womble to edit your MPEG2 files and VSO ConvertXtoDVD as your authoring program. It is quite versatile with the range of file types it accepts and is quick (depending on your computer).

I disagree - doesn't ConvertXtoDvD re-encode everything? Yes, if you have non-compliant files and want DvD it's excellent for a quick, easy and decent all-in-one DvD production tool. But surely you shouldn't use this with already compliant DvD streams.

Unless it's got a non-encode feature for compliant material I wouldn't advise use of it.

[PuzZLeR]

I think mpg2cut2 is gop accurate as it cannot cut on each frame if you want a frame accurate freewar use cuttermaran it uses quenc to re-encode the few frames so it can cut on b or p frames not just I frames.
Note: it won't work unless you have elementary streams .m2v and .mp2 or .mp3, if you have mpeg-ps demux it using project x

quenc is needed download from video help tools.

Like I said, I don't want to knock the free tools, but in this department they are too awkward. Demuxing or awkward navigation or clunky interfaces is too much for me. However, they do work well once you get used to them.

Which reminds me - Womble has a horrible and slow encoder under the hood so don't use it. However, the nice thing is that you don't want to use Womble unless it's for only a few frames nears cuts/joins/etc where it makes little difference. There's a way to frameserve this to a better MPEG encoder, but, meh, wouldn't bother.

However, the Qenc encoder under the hood of Cuttermaran is still a nice feature.

[AlanHK]

I took a quick look at the above software and see that some versions have DVD authoring and some dont. I have downloaded DVD Flick but havent tried it yet. Is it a poor performer too, being freeware? Looks like TMPGEnc MPEG Editor requires a separate authoring program but Womble Video Wizard doesnt. And Womble Mpeg VCR is a no frills editor but is only $20. Would using an all-in-one package be preferable or not necessarily?

There aren't any good, free, interactive MPEG editors. So Womble's is a good investment here.

As for authoring, there are several capable free ones.
GfD has all the features I want and more.

[dylz]

I find cuttermaran simple once you get used to it the only downside is it doesn't except mpeg-ps, this is how I edit :
Open projectx add mpeg press quick start it demuxes to ES then I open cuttermaran open the video cut out ads like this select cut in point then cut out point once i've got my cuts I press save and in less than a min of it's frame accuratley cut my mpegs then either mux back to mpg using imagompegmuxer or author using dvdauthorgui or muxman, yes I'm a freeware junkie:P.

For ease of use and features I would use videoredo if your willing to spend a few bucks.

[PuzZLeR]

Just realized now that things may have changed.

Womble used to have MPEG Video Wizard, which was able to do cuts/edits and transitions - then it was replaced with something more expensive like Womble's MPEG Video Wizard DvD, which also includes AC3 encoding and DvD Authoring.

If you still want something only for edits, it is indeed now the $20 item - MPEG VCR. But I don't think it does any transitions, just cuts/edits.

I believe Womble is enticing you with a cheapie to get you to buy something for a bit more later. Then again, they have good products.

[hydra3333]

I exclusively use VideoReDo for home stuff. Works a treat and is quite cheap for what you get. Their own forum is VERY active and responsive and the developers post to it with help. Can't beat it, as compared to the faceless unresponsive other brands.

[Nelson37]

I have used MPeg2Cut2 for several years, I find it easy, simple, reliable, handles different types of MPG with no problems, cuts AC-3 audio accurately, no prep needed.
The interface is well-designed and straightforward. I particularly like the "fast-forward" features.

GOP-boundary cutting has never been a problem in removing commercials.

GuiforDVDAuthor completes the capable and free suite.

CuterMaran worked OK, did NOT like the interface or the necessary prep.

Womble could not handle some of my captured files. Also did not like the interface.

The above two cutters I did not spend that much time with, cut several movies with each, went back to MPEG2Cut2.

[amtt]

Well Im going to give Womble VCR a try first. I appears to have the important features I want but no authoring or bells and whistles. I gave DVD Flick a test and it seems to work fine. One is $20 and the other free so if all goes smoothly, this should be a good solution. If I encounter any problems I will just get VideoReDo and be done with it. Its nice that the software can be tried first before purchase.

Once again, Im just concerned with cut and paste and retaining the quality. Titles and transitions would be nice but not overly important.

Art

[live4fun]

Just realized now that things may have changed.

Womble used to have MPEG Video Wizard, which was able to do cuts/edits and transitions - then it was replaced with something more expensive like Womble's MPEG Video Wizard DvD, which also includes AC3 encoding and DvD Authoring.

If you still want something only for edits, it is indeed now the $20 item - MPEG VCR. But I don't think it does any transitions, just cuts/edits.

I believe Womble is enticing you with a cheapie to get you to buy something for a bit more later. Then again, they have good products.

yes MPEG VCR Does little bit transition effect. it's hidden in insert option.

[dylz]

ProjectX can cut streams too

[chowmein]

Which reminds me - Womble has a horrible and slow encoder under the hood so don't use it. However, the nice thing is that you don't want to use Womble unless it's for only a few frames nears cuts/joins/etc where it makes little difference. There's a way to frameserve this to a better MPEG encoder, but, meh, wouldn't bother.

MPEG Video Wizard 5.0 uses Mainconcept encoder.

[PuzZLeR]

Which reminds me - Womble has a horrible and slow encoder under the hood so don't use it. However, the nice thing is that you don't want to use Womble unless it's for only a few frames nears cuts/joins/etc where it makes little difference. There's a way to frameserve this to a better MPEG encoder, but, meh, wouldn't bother.

MPEG Video Wizard 5.0 uses Mainconcept encoder.

Nice.

But this must be news because I remember a few years ago this guide was posted because of the bad encoder then:
https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/296816-How-to-Encode-Womble-Mpeg-Video-Wizard-proje...womble+encoder

My Womble must be an older build then since I don't notice it has MC under the hood. Then again, frame serving to HC Encoder is another good choice in that guide.

I won't bother with either since I've never really had a need for Womble's encoder anyway. Any extra quality for those very few frames per encode is frivolous to me. When I have to do any re-encoding on any project or significant segment of it - I would use something else first before entering it into Womble anyway.

[transporterfan]

I would use Windows Movie Maker before I'd touch Womble again.
It does a good job and you can bump the output up to HD. Cutting is easy and transitions are simple but effective.
VideoReDo has always been the best.

[PuzZLeR]

I would use Windows Movie Maker before I'd touch Womble again.
It does a good job and you can bump the output up to HD. Cutting is easy and transitions are simple but effective.
VideoReDo has always been the best.

Several editors have smart rendering for even MPEG, but most are ignorant about this format's compression and GOPs. Such features on these editors are either complex or problematic (for example, when VideoStudio "smart renders" MPEG the streams are unstable).

I'd understand if this thread were opinions on what the best editor is, but we're talking about editing MPEG here by preserving its source quality on rendering. VideoReDo is a valid choice. But I doubt WMM is a good option for MPEG, like it would be fine for DV or WMV.

As well, when you "bump the output up to HD", this sounds lossy to me.

[amtt]

Well I got my first DVD done. I used TMPGE 2.5 to convert my older .AVI files and then Womble VCR to edit them. Lastly, DVD Flick was used for authoring and then burned with Nero.

The quality of the videos on my 37"LCD is excellent and really better than I had expected. I encountered no real problems with the whole process other than the learning curve for the programs. That said, DVD Flick was basic and simple to use. I took forever but maybe thats the norm for authoring. TMPGE was also very straight forward. Womble on the other hand, is NOT intuitive and took alot of repetition and undoing to get right.

Now if I decide to spruce these videos up in the future with a full featured editor, can I do this to the files on the DVD or is it best to go back to the original mpeg2 files. In other words, once I have copies on DVD, do I still need to retain the HHD copies. Im assuming that the encoding done for DVD burning is lossless compression like FLAC for music, so that the files can be returned to the same mpeg2 files I stated with. Is this correct?

Art

[poisondeathray]

Only if DVD Flick only authored the files and didn't actually re-encode everything

I could be wrong, but I was under the impression that DVD Flick re-encoded everything. It uses ffmpeg for mpeg2 encoding (not very good quality)

[PuzZLeR]

The quality of the videos on my 37"LCD is excellent and really better than I had expected. I encountered no real problems with the whole process other than the learning curve for the programs. That said, DVD Flick was basic and simple to use. I took forever but maybe thats the norm for authoring. TMPGE was also very straight forward. Womble on the other hand, is NOT intuitive and took alot of repetition and undoing to get right.

Glad to see it worked out for you.

I understand Womble can be awkward at first, as it was for me since I was used to other editors previously. But I still recommend it because I assume it will get easier and easier over time like it did for me. Today I can place all my edits on, say, a complete 4 hour sports event with Womble in under 5 minutes by cutting all commercials, setting starts and finishes, and even fades on many scenes.

Now if I decide to spruce these videos up in the future with a full featured editor, can I do this to the files on the DVD or is it best to go back to the original mpeg2 files. In other words, once I have copies on DVD, do I still need to retain the HHD copies. Im assuming that the encoding done for DVD burning is lossless compression like FLAC for music, so that the files can be returned to the same mpeg2 files I stated with. Is this correct?

It depends. I don't use DvD Flick, but when you authored from MPEG-2 -> DvD, did you use any compression or shrinking? Or, are the VOB files on the disc relatively the same size as the Source MPEG-2 files?

If you applied any re-encoding, shrinking or added compression, then you should work from the Source instead for further projects on this content for better quality, such as the AVIs you converted. Good practice in this hobby is indeed to always keep a separate copy of your Source.

If you didn't apply any compression, and authored losslessly from MPEG-2 -> DvD then go ahead and delete the content on your HDD if you want to save space. You can always work with the DvD, if needed, as your Source in the future, but you should make backup copies of them then. Many here will even recommend certain brands of media as well.

Terminology: I understand what you meant with "encoding done for DVD burning is lossless compression like FLAC for music" but it's a bit different in video. FLAC is a lossless conversion, but it's also compressed as an added benefit. This convenience isn't as straight forward in video unfortunately when converting/encoding between formats.

But in this case if you only did some edits without re-encoding on the MPEG-2 streams and losslessly transferred them to DvD (which is indeed possible too losslessly), then it's not really "encoding", and it is similar to converting to FLAC, like in audio, in many ways.

[amtt]

Okay, I checked the authoring by doing a quick trial and it does show its encoding. So upon further examination of the options, there is a "copy mpeg2 streams" setting that I hadnt noticed. So I guess it did encode in FFmpeg. I will try again using the new setting and compare the two DVDs.

Art

[poisondeathray]

an indirect way you can tell is re-encoding will take longer

authoring (if your input streams are compliant) will just demultiplex to elementary streams then remultiplex and author into VOB, etc...but re-encoding adds significant processing time on top of that

you can use other authoring tools if you're not sure

[PuzZLeR]

Yes, all things being equal, re-encoding takes much longer to do than re-multiplexing. There should be a noticeable difference in time, even with today's computers.

Another indirect way is to compare the file size of the overall VOBs on the DvD structure with the Source MPEG-2 streams. They may not be exact due to different overhead between containers or segmentation, etc, but they should be very, very close.

One thing's for sure: If the overall VOB sizes are very different from the combined Source MPEG-2 streams, for the same movie content, you definitely re-encoded.

[qpskfec]

Okay, I checked the authoring by doing a quick trial and it does show its encoding. So upon further examination of the options, there is a "copy mpeg2 streams" setting that I hadnt noticed. So I guess it did encode in FFmpeg. I will try again using the new setting and compare the two DVDs.

Art

If you check that box in DVDflick ,it will not re-encode DVD compliant streams