Moving from Tape to AVCHD: What to expect in iMovie '09?

[NJRonbo]

Listen, I need someone to really spend
some time with me here to answer some
questions. I may be about to make a big
purchase that I may soon regret.

I own the Sony HC1 camcorder that is now
5 years old. It is a MiniDV unit.

I take a lot of footage at trade shows,
usually ending up with an hour of footage
per day. It has become a real nuisance
to transfer that footage from camcorder
to iMovie in real time. It takes a full hour
just to transfer an hour of footage before
I can even start editing it.

So, now I am very close to purchasing
an AVCHD camcorder, the Sony CX550V.
The camcorder is compatible with iMovie.

Now, I hear the horror stories about iMovie
and AVCHD. So, hopefully you guys can
help me feel a little better about my purchase
decision.

So, here we go...

I have a dual core 2.8 GHZ Intel Macbook Pro
with 4GB ram

1. Will the initial camcorder transfer of AVCHD
content be faster than tape? In other words, if
I have 10 minutes of tape footage we know it
will take 10 minutes to transfer. Will AVCHD be
faster? That is the main reason for my purchase
decision.

2. Is the iMovie '09 experience with AVCHD mostly
smooth? Should I expect any major headaches?

3. Is there any quality loss with AVCHD over tape?
I would guess Apple takes both tape and AVCHD
and converts it to its own codec. Perhaps I am
wrong about that.

4. Using the SHARE feature at the end of my edit,
is the final encoding process pretty much the same
whether I imported from tape or AVCHD?


Finally, knowing that my needs are to speed up
the overall editing process (mainly the camcorder
import) am I making the right decision moving
from a miniDV tape format over to AVCHD?

Anything you can say positively or negatively
about the AVCHD iMovie '09 experience would
be very, very helpful. Thank You.

[terryj]

Listen, I need someone to really spend
some time with me here to answer some
questions. I may be about to make a big
purchase that I may soon regret.

I own the Sony HC1 camcorder that is now
5 years old. It is a MiniDV unit.

I take a lot of footage at trade shows,
usually ending up with an hour of footage
per day. It has become a real nuisance
to transfer that footage from camcorder
to iMovie in real time. It takes a full hour
just to transfer an hour of footage before
I can even start editing it.

Good solid camera, I have a friend who has one and loves it.
I'm more partial to JVC, Canon, and Panasonic, but that's just me.

THe time your seeing on import into iMovie is correct: Real Time,
meaning for every one hour of footage shot, it takes one hour of import time
to get into the computer. This is normal for importing from mini DV.

So, now I am very close to purchasing
an AVCHD camcorder, the Sony CX550V.
The camcorder is compatible with iMovie.

Now, I hear the horror stories about iMovie
and AVCHD. So, hopefully you guys can
help me feel a little better about my purchase
decision.

So, here we go...

I have a dual core 2.8 GHZ Intel Macbook Pro
with 4GB ram

1. Will the initial camcorder transfer of AVCHD
content be faster than tape? In other words, if
I have 10 minutes of tape footage we know it
will take 10 minutes to transfer. Will AVCHD be
faster? That is the main reason for my purchase
decision.

No.

Anything that comes off of tape or anything that is encoded in a non compatible
format with iMovie will still need time in the conversion process to
be imported.

You want fast, you need to switch to a HD based camcorder that can record in
RAW DV format, something like the Panasonic AG-HVX200A
which shoots in native DVCPRO, which the newer versions of iMovie (09) and FCP (7) can handle
right off the cards without conversion.

2. Is the iMovie '09 experience with AVCHD mostly
smooth? Should I expect any major headaches?

3. Is there any quality loss with AVCHD over tape?
I would guess Apple takes both tape and AVCHD
and converts it to its own codec. Perhaps I am
wrong about that.

posts about AVCHD headaches here and here.

Yes, AVCHD is converted to the AIC ( Apple Intermediate Codec) format.
and, being converted to AIC can do funky things to the files if you then try and bounce
an AIC encoded timeline to iDVD or DVD Studio Pro. To fix this, you have to export
the AIC encoded timeline to DV, which then 'flattens" the assets, making them
[compatible] to compress to mpeg-2. ( thus avoiding what a lot of people
end up with, which is jaggy video in the DVDs that they make from AIC encoded assets.)

Tape is converted into DV format. DV format has long been the backbone of iMovie, FCE and FCP.
Smooth import, smooth compatibility to conversion to DVD assets ( mpeg-2).

4. Using the SHARE feature at the end of my edit,
is the final encoding process pretty much the same
whether I imported from tape or AVCHD?

SHARE? as in iMovie-->Share to Media Browser?
final encoding ---I'm guess your saying final encoding to your finalized asset,
which I assume is mpeg-2 for DVD authoring? if so, then no, see my answer to
question #3.

Finally, knowing that my needs are to speed up
the overall editing process (mainly the camcorder
import) am I making the right decision moving
from a miniDV tape format over to AVCHD?

Anything you can say positively or negatively
about the AVCHD iMovie '09 experience would
be very, very helpful. Thank You.

again for the utmost in speed, NOTHING will beat a DVCPRO file imported into FCP or iMovie.
The file can simply be imported into a DVCPRO timeline ( set in Preferences) and blam! your ready to go to edit.
( FCP / FCE...for iMovie, DV or mpeg-2 from HD is the fastest.)

[NJRonbo]

Terry,

You know, this is the very first post in the multitude of
forums that I asked this same question, that I got a detailed
response that thoroughly answered my question.

I cannot thank you enough for the amount of time you
gave my inquiry and the detailed response.

Unfortunately, I just bought the Sony 550V and expecting
it today. Not a big deal since I plan to return it if I don't
like the results I get.

I can't spend 4k on a Panasonic camcorder that is best suited
for my needs.

Though the Sony HC1 is a fantastic camcorder, it has
been exceeded by newer models over the years that offer
better low-light performance. I tried the Sony CX550V
in a store yesterday and it seems to do an incredible job
in low-light -- noticeably better than the HC1. It also
autofocuses much faster. The HC1 took a lot of time to
properly focus.

So, obviously I am in a dilemna. The new Sony 550V
has improved picture quality but dealing with AVCHD on
a Mac is not going to be a walk in the park. On the other
hand, I am not satisfied with the video performance of
the HC1 anymore despite the fact that its tape format
works perfectly with iMovie.

I have to try out AVCHD for myself. I plan to shoot some
video later today and then transfer it to iMovie to see
exactly how long the initial AIC encoding takes. If it turns
out to be a much longer process than its tape counterpart
then I will return the AVCHD camcorder.

Ultimately, I would hope that Apple releases a version of
iMovie '11 in the not-so-distant future that does a better
job with AVCHD. Apple has to realize by now that AVCHD
is going to be the dominant format and it needs to revamp
its movie-making software to make the process easier.

Lastly, I do run bootcamp on my Mac so I can run Windows 7
natively on my laptop. For that reason, I could certainly
work with a comparable software editing program for Windows
that doesn't do all kinds of funky stuff with AVCHD.

If you could recommend such a program I would be grateful.

[NJRonbo]

Okay...

So I got my CX550V within the past hour.

Very intuitive camera. Plugged it in and shot
some footage immediately.

My experience with iMovie thus far is encouraging.

2 minutes, 22 seconds of footage took under 58
seconds to transfer in FULL QUALITY mode. That's
the highest setting.

So, the transfer rate on AVCHD is absolutely faster
than tape. Absolutely.

So, thus far, I am a happy camper.

Going to now edit in iMovie. See what the results
look like when I upload to YouTube as that will be
what I do the most.

Going to upload to YouTube in 1920x1080HD H.264
format which was recommended by a YouTube video
demonstrating iMovie.

[edDV]

Okay...

So I got my CX550V within the past hour.

Very intuitive camera. Plugged it in and shot
some footage immediately.

My experience with iMovie thus far is encouraging.

2 minutes, 22 seconds of footage took under 58
seconds to transfer in FULL QUALITY mode. That's
the highest setting.

So, the transfer rate on AVCHD is absolutely faster
than tape. Absolutely.

So, thus far, I am a happy camper.

Going to now edit in iMovie. See what the results
look like when I upload to YouTube as that will be
what I do the most.

Going to upload to YouTube in 1920x1080HD H.264
format which was recommended by a YouTube video
demonstrating iMovie.

It would help if you described your full work flow. You may find issues with the back end of your process especially if DVD or other MPeg2/4 export is the goal.

To be clear, are you importing to the AIC in 1920x1080i? In that case the incoming AVCHD is being converted to AIC's intraframe compressed frame by frame digital intermediate format. Speed of re-code depends on the CPU speed. The resulting file is ~60GB/hr (~130 Mb/s). It is important to find a way to backup your original AVCHD file to hard disk or other.

First trap, iMovie will try to convince you to convert to 960x540p/29.97(quarter resolution/half motion sampled) to save disk space. Don't do it if quality matters. That work flow is pointed to a poor man's DVD.

If you are editing 1920x1080 AIC, the next issue is what do you want to do for export? iMovie doesn't have Compressor so export options are limited.

[NJRonbo]

EdDV,

I need you to look at something.

The iMovie '09 workflow...

Video is uploaded to iMovie at Large 960x540 format

The final encode is done with these settings:

* Export using Quicktime
* File Format: MPP4
* Video Format: H.264
* Data Rate: 8192
* Image Size: 1920x1080HD
* Frame Rate: 60

Encoding: Faster Encode
Audio Data Rate: 256kbps
Encode Quality: Best

Now those are settings recommended by someone
on a YouTube video. Not sure why those were selected
but I copied them verbatim.

Here is the test video I did:



EDIT:

WoW! It looks okay.

When I previewed it on YouTube it did not look good at all.

Here it actually looks decent. The only big problem I see
is that the video is "jerky" in movement. Any reason why?

[edDV]

Could you post the file you sent them or a portion of it with h and v pans?

Youtube is going to encode again to flash. I haven't looked at optimizing for Youtube.

[NJRonbo]

Hi Ed!

Not quite sure what you are asking me to do.

How can I post the file here?

I figured out why the video initially looked horrible. YouTube
takes a long time to process the files. It starts in 240p. It was
still processing when I was watching it so it defaulted to that resolution.

Once the processing was done, and I saw the above video in
1080, I was VERY impressed.

Looks like iMovie did a decent job. Not a bad job for my first effort
with iMovie and AVCHD.

However, the jerky video, more apparent in the lower resolution
settings, is bothering me.

I looked at the RAW file that I saved to my desktop prior to uploading
to YouTube. The jerkiness is there in the RAW MP4 file when watching
via Quicktime. However, if I use a program called VLC to watch it, the
jerkiness does not exist. So I wonder if it has something to do with
Quicktime exporting.

[edDV]

You can upload up to 30 MB here, or use a third party posting site.

[NJRonbo]

Took some new footage here using the HDFX setting
(which is the highest setting).

The YouTube video is here



The raw file is attached here

Notice only slight jerky motion in 1080 mode.

The only thing I am noticing is the introduction of some
background noise that may be YouTube related.

[NJRonbo]

One last thing to look at.

I took some outdoor footage this morning.

For the most part, in 1080p it looks good. However,
I noticed macro blocking from the sky pan down and
whenever the camera hits the siding of the house you
can see waves or wavy noise being introduced.

Also a touch of jerky pan motion in 1080p

I am hoping this is just part of the YouTube file being
condensed.



I am going to stop here. All of you have been very
helpful in taking the time to look at the results of
AVCHD and iMovie. I just need to know if what I
uploaded looks acceptable enough to justify keeping
the camera.

[terryj]

NJron,
you are welcome, I'm glad I was able to help you.

In reverse order on your last few questions:

(1) Does the uploaded video look acceptable to justify keeping the camera?

My answer would be yes.

(2)HDFX SETTING

Looks fine from what I see on the Youtube upload.
the testpan

(3) quicktime exporting of the AVCHD

yes, See my original post. Quicktime playback of AVCHD encoded files, and even AIC encoded files can
be "jerky" or "jaggy". If you are targeting your final result file for Quicktime ( as a .mov file for any reason [web, sharing])
then export to a codec quicktime is more ....."compatible" with, for lack of a better term, such as Photo-Jpeg-A, or DV/DVCPRO.
But if your intent is just to upload to Youtube, you see that going from the straight AVCHD codec to Youtube
is the way to go. Each "middleman" step you do will only make the file worse in it's final product,
so always figure out FIRST what your final target is going to be ( youtube hd, youtube sd, web, dvd, iphone, etc)
and then go and capture and make the HQ file you can Second.

It seems your on your way and have great handle on things otherwise!
enjoy,
terryj

[NJRonbo]

Terry,

Thank you so much for reaffirming that it's okay
to keep my camcorder.

I'll continue using Quicktime for YouTube exporting
as it seems, according to your reply, that is the way to go.

[edDV]

I downloaded the Quicktime AVC 8Mb/s 1080p file and didn't notice any frame drops there. But it is deinterlaced and has variable bit rate that could be upsetting Youtube's encoder. It is also highly compromised in quality at that average bit rate. If Youtube accepts native AVCHD (1080i constant bit rate 16 or 24 Mb/s, the results through their recode should be better.

Problem is iMove can't edit AVCHD natively and only outputs HD to Apple's h.264. I'm not sure of the Quicktime options.

[NJRonbo]

Ed,

Thank you for taking the time to look at the video
and offer your opinion on what you saw.

Any suggestions on what settings I can make to
deal with the deinterlacing and variable bitrate?

Thanks again

[edDV]

Ed,

Thank you for taking the time to look at the video
and offer your opinion on what you saw.

Any suggestions on what settings I can make to
deal with the deinterlacing and variable bitrate?

Thanks again

Your Mac OSX options are limited. Maybe Premiere Pro for Mac.

Or just work in AVCHD to AVCHD in 3rd party programs. No, I don't know of any.

[terryj]

Ed,

Thank you for taking the time to look at the video
and offer your opinion on what you saw.

Any suggestions on what settings I can make to
deal with the deinterlacing and variable bitrate?

Thanks again

Your Mac OSX options are limited. Maybe Premiere Pro for Mac.

Or just work in AVCHD to AVCHD in 3rd party programs. No, I don't know of any.

Final Cut Pro ( v.5 or higher) or Final Cut Express (v.4 and higher ) will allow you to import AHCHD into a AIC timeline,
and edit then export to codec of your choice. You can also set the Deinterlacing options as well as set the Bitrate
(Constant/Variable).

You'll need to check with Youtube or just google "youtube and AVCHD"...here is one thread to start, here is another.