What do you guys think of hard drives for permanent storage? Need advice

[dafoe]

Ok I'm thinking of doing something and I'd like some advice. I've got probably about 2000 or so DVDs with different things on them- mostly video. They are taking up way too much space.

A few weeks ago I bought 2000 5mm double DVD cases to eliminate a lot of the bulky ones I had. But they are still going to take up a lot of space.

So I saw a 2TB external on sale for a little over $300 and started thinking. I did the math and 500 4GB DVDs (I only use Taiyo Yuden) with double cases cost around $220. So the price difference isn't anything outrageous. To me, it's worth it- I hate clutter. I'm not going to buy all the drives at once. But eventually I would have everything transferred to hard drive. I could then connect through a network to my TV for playing video. The only real pain would be constantly plugging and unpluggling drives and keeping track of what's on which drive.

The real issue I have is reliability. The thought of putting stuff (without backup) on a hard drive is a little scary. I've been into computers since around 98 and have yet to have a hard drive that didn't fail me at some point.


The stuff that is truly important I can save on disc. Most of this stuff is replaceable. I also thought about just switching the drives out every few years and selling the old one on Ebay.

I was just wondering if you guys think it would be worth the risk. Or if you even think it's a good idea. Is hard drive failure that normal or am I just really unlucky?

I would love to hear some feedback to help me make my decision.

[Soopafresh]

I've got a client who creates huge amounts of data - at least 4TB per month. It's all stored on external drives. The really important stuff has 2 copies made of it.

I'd say 20% of the drives die within 2 years.

[redwudz]

I tend to use smaller hard drives for mass storage. I did buy 320GB HDDs when they were at the best price point (Cost per gigabyte). Now I think 500GB drives are probably a better choice. If I had a 2TB HDD and it failed, I would lose quite a bit of data. Spread over four 500GB drives just seems a bit safer in case of a single drive failure. JMO. I have sixteen 320GB drives at present.

[Supreme2k]

I have a 40G Maxtor drive on an old server that is constantly accessed. It's been in use for over seven years.

[redwudz]

I have a 40G Maxtor drive on an old server that is constantly accessed. It's been in use for over seven years.

I haven't had any major hard drive failures in a couple of years. Of the sixteen in my servers, none have died in two years, but I've replaced a couple of the older ones that developed noisy bearings. When I pulled one of them, the manufacture date was 2001, so I'm not complaining.

[Webster]

I've got probably about 2000 or so DVDs with different things on them- mostly video.

Just one question. How long will it take you to transfer the 2,000 DVDs to hard drives?

[Chips144]

Check your math first. If you have 2000 dvd's at 4GB each, you will need four 2TB hard drives. At $300 each, that's $1200. Assuming that it takes approximately 10 minutes to rip 4Gb to a hard drive, you are looking at 2000 X 10 min. = 20,000 minutes or approximately 333 hours continuous. Another thing to consider is the longevity of the dvd's you have. Are they pressed or are they dvd +/- r's. Initially, the dvd +/- r's were expected to last 100 years. In actuality, the first few hundred I used lasted anywhere from 1 day to 1 year. Improvements were made and some were found to last only 2 to 3 years. The TY' I use now seem to be perfect, but there is no way of telling just how long they will last or if they will be supplanted by newer media (e.g. blue ray).

Hard drives on the other hand also can have their problems. Their life expectancy can be affected by temperature, on/off cycling and a host of environmental issues (dust, coffee spills, etc.).

The question you asked has no simple answer. In my case, I take all the non-replaceables and have them both on hard drives AND dvd-r's. The replaceables I simply keep on dvd-r's. In addition, being analy retentive, every few years when new/improved media comes around, I start an as-you-go transfer to the new media. Princo out, Ritek in. Ritek out, Taiyo Yuden in.

[yoda313]

I take all the non-replaceables and have them both on hard drives AND dvd-r's. The replaceables I simply keep on dvd-r's.

Yep I tend to do the same thing. I have individual dvdr's with certain folders on them. Things like document files, photos, music and video get their own dvdrs for quicker access.

I have recently started using a dedicated usb harddrive for backup as well. Just an extra layer of prevention.

Also I make new backups of the photos and documents and such a few times a year. Then I gradually ditch older discs. Though I do still have some from 2004. i just haven't tested those for reliability yet -however those are redundantly backed up on newer dvd-rs just in case

[stiltman]

I tend to use smaller hard drives for mass storage. I did buy 320GB HDDs when they were at the best price point (Cost per gigabyte). Now I think 500GB drives are probably a better choice. If I had a 2TB HDD and it failed, I would lose quite a bit of data. Spread over four 500GB drives just seems a bit safer in case of a single drive failure. JMO. I have sixteen 320GB drives at present.

I agree 100%

Even though these 2tb extenal drives are really 2 1tb drives, I still tend to stick with the best cost point for backups. I also do multi format backups. HDD/Tape, or DVD/HDD, or DVD/Tape.
Hardest thing is to keep track of where everything is. I use ADC for DVDs/HDDs and Veritas for tapes

[wtsinnc]

I don't have quite as many DVDs as you, but I'm fairly close. I considered taking the hard drive storage route but was terrified of an HDD failure and subsequent loss of programs. The move to HDD storage presented another problem- organization.

I store my DVDs in slimline jewel cases in alphabetical order. If you transfer your videos to HDD, how will you keep track of what's on each drive ?
If you attempt to organize titles alphabetically on hard drives, what happens when you want to add a title to a drive that is already full ?

As you have already mentioned, sorting through various drives to find one particular movie or file will be a real hassle, plus, as pointed out by chips144, the added time and expense. You've already purchased the jewel cases; use them and prepare to re-record/dub any disc that gives signs of deterioration.

Perhaps my standards are much lower than yours, but I found the answer to my storage problem by purchasing four storage cabinets from Walmart.
-two of these;
http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=9886874

-and two of these
http://www.walmart.com/search/search-ng.do?search_constraint=4044&ic=48_0&search_query....x=17&Find.y=6

Not fancy, but very effective in terms of cost.

[lordsmurf]

I like the external 1GB RAID drives from WD. Takes care of redundant backup (two 1GB drives).

[slacker]

Tapes are still more reliable than hard drives are still more reliable than discs (dvd/cd).
When this situation changes, I'll change my backup method.

[redwudz]

I have been interested in tape drives for archival backup, but the cost of the drives (And the media) has stopped me. But having 400GB on a tape does seem one way for large file storage. To backup my existing drives, it would take over 1000 DVDs and that's not happening.

[diablo2003]

I purchased 2 NexStar Hard Drive Docks at Fry's Electronics. I also purchased the SIIG Hard Drive 3.5 rubber protective sleeves to store my hard drive(s) into.

The NexStar has e-Sata and USB-2 connectors. If I do big transfers I shut the unit off, connect the e-sata cable, reboot and I can transfer at extremely fast speeds. My computer has 2 e-sata inputs. I do this when I run out of room and have to add another DVD into a new drive.

Beware, always use the 'safely remove device' feature, then power down the hard drive dock, and remove the hard drive.

I have had one SATA hard drive failure and lost 100 iso DVD's. It does take a little time to image my original DVD's, but at least I have some sort of back up.

I use Karen's Directory Printer to print the directory.

My essential programs and documents are backed up on DVD's and multiples drives.

[oldfart13]

I have lots of drives with bad sectors or the electronics gave up. At least 2 are Western Digital Caviars, a 60 Gig and a 160 Gig. I pulled out a box of old drives rcently, 500 Meg up to about 13 Gig and 75% of them were unreadable or wouldn't even power up. If you are going to do anything in the future make sure you have back ups of all your files....

[oldfart13]

It tells you something though that so far, 100% of my old Atari ST files are still readable more than 20 years after I put files on those old 3.5" discs....

[oldfart13]

I have a Nexstar 2 USB external case but it's flakey. Tonight it refused to work on any of the 3 computers I own. Yesterday it worked perfectly. If I want to do fast transfers I generally use a removeable drive bay or run extra cables from the motherboard to one of the available HDD connectors.

[lordsmurf]

Tapes and floppy disks are the fastest-dying media I've ever used.

[Skith]

I have opted for both optical media and hard drives for backup, but I use a removable drive bay (hot-swap sata) to deal with the hard drives. Good drive bays/trays have a few benefits including

• keeping the drive cool (get all aluminum with a fan)
• easily manage the hard drives without cable clutter, power bricks, etc.
• faster transfer speeds than USB
• Hot-swap (make sure both your motherboard/chipset or hostcontroller and the product both support this feature)
• Lets you choose which Hard drive you want
• easier troubleshooting a bad/failing drive without voiding the warranty (retail externals you can't open without voiding warranty, many tools don't work well over USB/Firewire. It is far better to connect via sata/ide.

Be careful, some drive bays directly connect to the hard drive, and with SATA models it is possible to wear out the connection on the drive, so if you are going to be frequently accessing the drives it might be better to get one that has a connection built into the drive tray.

I have used the vantec ez-swap (with lcd) although the lcd is very hard to read. For the most part, the tray fans are very quiet, one does act up sometimes. I have 4 trays total with one bay. the drives barely get warm, even after heavy use. I have drives ranging from 300-750GB in these trays. I am not sure if they will support 1TB and higher, you will need to check with the specific models.

Well, I hope I haven't bored you with this spew... it probably sounds like some sales pitch from a door to door vacuum salesman. :P

Whatever you do... if your data is important... one copy... one backup... one type of media... is never safe enough.

[slacker]

redwudz

Tape drives are still the backup method of choice by large enterprises and small businesses. The HP SLT tape drives hold approx 600gb per tape and run about $4000. They ARE expense. The HP DAT tape drives hold approx 160gb per tape and run about $800, fairly INexpensive.

For HDV and DV video, I simply keep the video stored on DV tapes. I also backup the video to dvd media, in DATA format though, NOT as your run of the mill movie dvd that you play in your dvd player. And, of course, I create a playable dvd as well.

For audio files (WAV, FLAC, MP3) I backup up to multiple Western Digital hard drives. Again, I also backup the audio files to dvd media.

I figure I'm doing something right. I haven't lost any data (corporate or personal) in 28 years.

[redwudz]

Thanks for the info on tape drives. A bit more than I can afford for the HP drives, but I have been looking around Ebay for a lower end version that may fit into my budget. I have about 6TB I would like to backup.

[zoobie]

just saw a Seagate 680gb 3.0 HDD on newegg.com for $72...what's even more amazing is that it comes with a 5 year warranty...but I still think tapes is the way to go for now...

[slacker]

The most inexpensive, RELIABLE tape drive I've been able to find is the HP StorageWorks DAT 72 USB Internal Tape Drive for $400 new. I'll keep looking for bargains.

[RabidDog]

Tape goes bad too tho.. try restoring 20 20yo tapes and I gtee at LEAST one will have errors. Maybe some form of raid plus PAR so that even if a drive/tape fails the data is still recoverable.. it all starts getting expensive, complicated and untestable very quickly. Organizing it all is even worse, maybe some sort of database (mysql) is necessary..

[slacker]

I agree. ALL media eventually goes bad, even tape. (Although I do have absolutely perfect 8 mm film of my birth and first year in this world, and I'm 52 years old. Go figure.)

I think good backup is in the process, not only the media used. I managed distributed computing which included all desktops and server rooms for several years at Bank of America when it was still headquartered in San Francisco. Every file server was backed up every day and the tape shipped to Roseville. On loction at Roseville were 30 tapes per server representing 30 days of complete (not incremental) backups. So if one tape went bad, we had 29 more to choose from. A lot of work, but it worked very well.

So rather than fixate too much on the media, I concentrate on making multiple backups of the same data over time. I always have 2-5 copies of everything I own. And I have never lost anything.

Tapes, hard drives, optical disks, cd/dvd disks, flash memory, pick your poison!

[poisondeathray]

I agree with multiple backups, especially if the data is valuable!

While tapes may (or may not) be more reliable, you can make 10-15 separate physical harddrive backups and place them in different locations at the same cost - which is more reliable IMO than having 1 physical tape backup.

[redwudz]

I was able to pick up a HP Ultrium LTO 1 Surestore 230 external SCSI tape drive and I already have a SCSI card that should work. The units a bit old, but will do what I need for a reasonable price.

My final thoughts on hard drives for permanent storage. I have about 30 HDDs in various computers at present. I average about two HDD failures a year with them, mostly with the older drives and mostly bearing failures, though one recently started to smoke and apparently had a dead short in the power section. The PC's PS shut down the system before any serious damage occurred.

I've only had a couple of HDD failures in the last 5 years that resulted in total data loss, but there were backups of most of this. Other times I was able to get the drive going long enough to transfer the data to a new drive.

My usual strategy is to back up important data in at least three places, more with some. Most is duplicated on hard drives over the LAN. It's also backed up with DVD data discs.