Toast sync probs w lifts from Pana EH55 discs

[pauld2007]

I started to use Cinematize 2 to lift DVD chapters from discs burned with a Panasonic DMR-EH55. I used to do these lifts all the time with dvds made on a Pioneer DVR-310 (then make new compilations with Toast 8 - all ok), when I do it from the EH55 src discs, the result when I compile in Toast is out of sync by close to 10 frames (audio behind). When I examine the aif file it seems as it should but when muxed or whatever Toast does, it comes in late.

In Cinematize I use the option to decode to Elementary Streams & separate (a&v) files. I've gone with these settings because I was told this is the way to do a transparent (native) lift with no transcoding. I then make the new dvd compilation with Toast 8 Titanium. If I use Cinematize to make a single a/v Quicktime I trust it would be in sync but I'd take a transcoding quality hit (yes?). Any work-arounds that take into account the apparent difference between the Panasonic & Pioneer discs.

Thanks in advance,

Paul

[Frobozz]

I don't know a reason why the audio would be out of sync. However, Toast also can extract chapters from the discs burned with your Panasonic. Insert the disc and choose DVD with the top button of the Toast Media Browser. When something appears in the browser window use the button just below "DVD" to access the disc's chapter level. Then drag the chapter(s) you want to the Toast Video window.

You also might contact Miraizon about this and check their FAQ. The Cinematize Help is very comprehensive as well.

[pauld2007]

Thanks Frobozz,

I looked at Toast and got it to work following your instructions, thanks. I'm fine for this project but will need help mimicking the system I had going with Cinematize. It would appear that when I drag the chapters (called Titles) from the DVD into Toast, they get copied by Toast into a non-permanent cache. This was not problem with this assignment but when I did the extractions with Cinematize I had files I could archive in a folder that functioned as modules for future complications. In Toast I can save a disc image but it doesn't seem malleable, just an opaque file good for making more copies of this compilation, that's all. Bottom line - how can I do lossless extracts that can be saved as (module) files.

Thanks,

Paul

[Frobozz]

Toast writes the extracted clips to the Roxio Converted Items folder that by default is in your Documents folder. If you drag or copy those files out of the folder they won't be deleted. There also is a setting in Toast Preferences not to empty the folder unless instructed to do so.

I use the standard version of Cinematize 2 when I want to extract specific clips that are within or overlap chapters, but use Toast when I want the breaks by chapter such as with a music program. I can then do additional trimming of the Toast-extracted files in MPEG Streamclip.

I'm puzzled why you have the audio sync issue when using Cinematize for program stream extractions. All that is done is demultiplexing and that shouldn't have presented any problem. You mention examining the Aif file. There shouldn't be an aif file; there should be an ac3 file unless you used a setting with the Panasonic recorder that creates PCM audio instead of Dolby Digital audio. If that is the case you might try using a different setting in the Panasonic to create Dolby Digital instead of PCM audio and then check if that fixes the audio sync issue when extracting with Cinematize.

You might also check what setting is being used for audio in Toast. If you have a PCM/Aif audio track then Toast can either convert it to ac-3 or leave it at PCM. The default is for Toast to convert to ac-3. If that is what happened in your case, go to Toast's custom encoder settings window and change the audio setting to PCM to see if this fixes the issue.

[pauld2007]

Thanks again Frobozz,

>I use the standard version of Cinematize 2 when I want to extract specific clips that are >within or overlap chapters, but use Toast when I want the breaks by chapter such as >with a music program. I can then do additional trimming of the Toast-extracted files in >MPEG Streamclip.

Due to my weakness on terminology I'm not sure I fully understand (I do want to learn though), I thought any trimming in the standard version of Cinematize 2 resulted in sync problems if one extracts to separate files (which I only do because I thought that was the only way to get a native extraction).

I'm puzzled why you have the audio sync issue when using Cinematize for program stream extractions. All that is done is demultiplexing and that shouldn't have presented any problem. You mention examining the Aif file. There shouldn't be an aif file; there should be an ac3 file unless you used a setting with the Panasonic recorder that creates PCM audio instead of Dolby Digital audio. If that is the case you might try using a different setting in the Panasonic to create Dolby Digital instead of PCM audio and then check if that fixes the audio sync issue when extracting with Cinematize.

(At the end of this I'll go over my Cinematize extracting settings.)

All I can say about the Cinematize extraction is that both the a&v files seem just right when examined individually- 1st lip-flap & sound are snug to the start of each file respectively, but in the Toast compilation using my orig method with separate a&v files I got good results with the extractions from DVR-310 discs and an audio delay (10+ frames) from the EH55 ones.

As to your questions about the PCM status, in the manual (the manual is on-line DMREH55.PDF) on p.62 it makes reference to PCM down conversion and defaulting (re. Dolby & DTS) to Bitstream over PCM, none of which I really understand.

You might also check what setting is being used for audio in Toast. If you have a PCM/Aif audio track then Toast can either convert it to ac-3 or leave it at PCM. The default is for Toast to convert to ac-3. If that is what happened in your case, go to Toast's custom encoder settings window and change the audio setting to PCM to see if this fixes the issue.

That seemed promising but changing that setting in Toast did not improve anything using the same a&v files I originally extracted from the EH55 discs with Cinematize. (Again your method of extracting with Toast 8 worked, now I just have to get a system down to archive the files in the Roxio Converted folder you were kind enough to point out.

It's been so long since I started working with Cinematize, I can't swear what the factory defaults were, but... If one (as I do) decodes to Elementry Streams (video tab) and under Output tab set to Seperate Stream files, if I then look at audio it is/was set (defaults?) to Decode to AIFF

Paul

[Frobozz]

Paul,

I have a Pioneer DVR-510H so am familiar with your 310. I hope you still have it or found a buyer because there are people who love its 32 bit-rate settings and can both input and output DV via Firewire. The Pioneer units, however, create timecode breaks about every 30 seconds when recording in video mode. I record in VR mode because it doesn't have those breaks. Toast will extract MPEGs from VR mode discs the same as from finalized video mode. Cinematize, though, only recognizes finalized video mode DVDs.

I believe the Panasonic recorders often encode the video at a slightly smaller resolution than do the Pioneer recorders. Presuming you're in the U.S., I believe the Panasonic records at 702 x 480 whereas the Pioneer records at 720 x 480. Toast should report that resolution in the Video window when you've done the extraction. The audio should be the same: 256 kbps AC-3. I don't know how this would affect audio sync with extracted clips.

When extracting with Toast there is no conversion of the AC-3 audio to PCM/AIFF. In fact, Toast can't do it even when you choose PCM as the preference in the custom encoder window. Since the audio format is unchanged it is easier to keep it in sync.

When you used Cinematize to save the audio as AIFF it had to use QuickTime (probably) to do the AC-3 to AIFF conversion. While that conversion went okay Toast lost the sync when authoring the new video DVD in either PCM or AC-3 format. I don't know why. I'm sure the audio stayed at 48 khz the entire time. Changing from 48 khz to 44.1 (what's used with audio CDs) can cause sync issues.

You can choose to have Cinematize keep the audio in its native AC-3 stream rather than convert to AIFF. That's one of the options in the Audio panel.

The problem also could be the accumulation of timecode breaks from the Panasonic's recordings. If you recorded to DVD-RAM or DVD-RW in VR mode those breaks likely won't occur. Of course your Mac's DVD drive would have to be able to read DVD-RAM. If it can't you can choose DVD-RW.

I'm getting silly here because recording in VR mode eliminates the ability to use Cinematize any way. If Toast is working with your video mode discs then why change?

You can see if those Panasonic disc have timecode breaks by opening one in MPEG Streamclip. Streamclip has a fix timecode breaks command in its Edit window.

To clarify when I use Cinematize: Cinematize lets me select starting and ending points anywhere within a DVD whereas Toast only lets me extract entire titles or chapters. If I want to choose my starting and ending point regardless of any chapter markers then Cinematize is the way to go. Cinematize also is my preferred application when wanting to convert video from DVDs to editable formats such as DV or full quality Quicktime Movie unless it is going to be a long conversion. For long conversions I play the DVD on my Pioneer 510 and use the Firewire link to import directly into iMovie or QuickTime Pro because that gets done in real time.

Let's see now, what was your question?