Sony (Pioneer) hard drive upgrade problems.

[prime]

Hi,

I'm trying to upgrade the hard disk in my Sony RDR-HXD770 recorder, I am lead to believe that this is manufactureded by Pioneer.

I have read around this and other sites, to assemble what I though was all the tools and information that I needed.

I have programmed my One for all remote to successfully emulate the service remote and have downloaded the
3 copies of the service disk from www.pioneerfaq.info.

All seemed to go ok until the time came to use the service disk to re-write the rom, and no matter which I use
I get a "rom write ng" error, and a bad cprm id when starting the player, even with the original drive in the machine.

One thing I did wonder about was had I got the correct settings when writing the service disk ? I am using Nero version 6.6.1.4 and have tried burning the disk as both DAO and TAO, both finalized. Thd disk seems to be read the machine seems to attempt to program the rom but cannot succeed.

Does anyone know if this Sony machine has an equivelent Pioneer machine ?


Cheers.

Phill.

[orsetto]

Pioneer began their strange, regrettable DVD recorder cooperation with Sony in 2006, much to the annoyance of do-it-yourself Pioneer hobbyists worldwide. Their parts-sharing arrangement has voided some of the key service tips, tricks and parts that had traditionally worked for every Pioneer since 2003. About the ONLY thing you can still do yourself with these new Frankenstein PioSon models is swap the hard drive, and then only if you have the very latest service disc image.

As for the Sony-branded DVD/HDD models, these are not sold in the USA so most of us here can't tell you definitively if the Sony 770 is a direct copy of a particular Pioneer model or a specific Sony-only variation. Just guessing based on details in your question, I think one problem may be that you might not actually have the Pioneer service disc? The 3 downloads available on Pioneerfaq are not for the service disc, they are only the EPG electronic program guide firmware for select older (2005) Pioneer-USA models. The service disc required to change the CPRM code is a HUGE download which is not available directly from Pioneerfaq, instead you need to look for it on unrelated BitTorrent sites to download it. Most people who attempt the download fail, the only reliable way to get a good service disc is to borrow one from another forum member or use the email link at Pioneerfaq to ask for help in getting it.

Your Sony 770 is a current UK model with the FreeView digital tuners, so neither the Program Guide downloads or the Service Discs commonly available with help from forum members are likely to work for you. You should definitely use the "ask a question" link and explain your problem to Pioneerfaq, give them a little time and they might be able to research what you need and tell you how to obtain it. There are now approx 6 or 7 different service disc versions, and no way of knowing which might apply to your Sony other than asking Pioneerfaq for advice. (The last disc update I'm aware of on this forum is #GGV1305 dating from 2006, it has probably been updated once or twice since then and might not be compatible with your Sony.) Good luck!

[james10s]

orsetto, does that mean that if I have a pioneer dvr-550h and need to "repair" the DVD burner that I wouldn't be able to cannibalise parts from a compatible (new) DVD to use in the repair (this is how I was able to repair the DVD drive in my pioneer dvr-530h; instead, I'd have to buy a new DVD burner (and wonder which one would be compatible) to replace the original? Thanks.

[orsetto]

does that mean that if I have a pioneer dvr-550h and need to "repair" the DVD burner that I wouldn't be able to cannibalise parts from a compatible (new) DVD to use in the repair (this is how I was able to repair the DVD drive in my pioneer dvr-530h; instead, I'd have to buy a new DVD burner (and wonder which one would be compatible) to replace the original?

Exactly: since the "merger" of Pioneer and Sony DVD Recorder designs that began with the 640, you CANNOT repair a dead Pioneer burner by swapping parts from your recorder burner to a new, cheap off-the-shelf Pioneer PC burner of the same model. The actual burner inside the model 640 and all later Pioneers is a one-off custom Sony-branded unit with no equivalent PC model available at retail. So far no one has been able to determine from whom Sony is sourcing this special burner, most likely its a LiteOn but the true burner mfr remains unidentifiable. Eventually some intrepid soul will completely disassemble one and figure it out, until that happens all us Pioneer owners are on edge regarding future burner breakdown.

An additional complication is that Sony and Pioneer do not implement this burner in the same way. The Sony-branded recorders use this burner unmodified, assuming you could find a replacement for it you should be able to do the old switcheroo of circuits or lasers as usual. Unfortunately Pioneer completely re-engineered the Sony burner's circuit board for their recorders, in fact they replaced it completely with a board of their own which not only controls the burner but includes the video encoder and master operating brain of the recorder. In other words, Pioneer has now embedded 90% of their recorder motherboard inside their version of the Sony burner. So if you attempt to disassemble the burner to replace circuits or parts, you run a much higher risk of doing irreparable damage to the recorder. This is a huge drawback which makes newer Pioneer recorders virtually unrepairable by the DIY owner. The older Pioneer burners were difficult to repair but it was at least possible for the dedicated hobbyist. Now, its impossible. Bummer!!!

The only bright side to this (so far anyway) is that these Sony burners do seem surprisingly more robust and flexible with media than the last iteration of Pioneer burners in the 530/630 recorders! Based on my own heavy usage and reports from many other users on several forums, the Sony burner in the newer Pioneer 540, 640, 450, 550, 650 etc handles many burns a day without fail and it is so far not showing the symptoms of slow decline inevitably seen in earlier Pioneer recorders. The 530/630 burners tend to self destruct within 12-15 months moderate use, say a few hundred burns. The new models appear to be sturdier: we are at nearly two years since the introduction of the Sony-based Pioneer 640, with hardly any reports yet of burner failure. If they continue to hold up past the 30 month mark, that would be exceptionally good longevity for a recorder-installed DVD burner. (The burners installed in PCs last much much longer, for whatever reason.) Pioneer must be exerting some additional quality control on their Sony-sourced parts, because the reputation of current model Sony-branded DVD recorders for sale in the USA is very poor (media problems, playback problems, DRM issues galore). Interesting.

[Hkan]

Pioneer DVR-x4x uses SONY DRW-V35A without DSP-processing board. Pioneer just replace this PCB with their own Main Borad, which is constructed around 70% of DVR - Pick-Up RF, Driver, LSI, RAM and everything else.
SONY uses those DVD-RW units in their DVD-recorders and they have not usual IDE-ATAPI interface, but something similiar as Pioneer used in DVR-x3x.

I do not yet understand the meaning of the digital code, that is written on writer unit labels in 5th series. In replacing procedure has been told that engineer could enter this number if he changed Main board, FLASHROM or writer unit. But construction of DVD-RW writer stay the same, without visible changes....

Pioneer did some fun in DVR-x5x MB. As you already know they use SATA HDD instead of IDE HDD. But there is no initial SATA support - they just place on the Main Board PCB IDE->SATA converter. What mean is - everyone can just solder little 40 pin connector, some resistors and few other details and use traditional IDE HDD

[orsetto]

Many thanks, Hkan, for the additional info!

(Most of the answers we exchange here are based on what we learn from Hkan, there is probably no one outside of Pioneer engineering labs who knows more about Pioneer recorders than Hkan does. Without his generous sharing of knowledge via the international Pioneerfaq site, most of us DIY repairers would not have known where to even start with our service projects.)

Just to clarify, the Sony/Pioneer burner we are discussing is not simply a circuit board modification of an existing model (which is what Pioneer used to do, and what everyone else does except maybe Polaraoid which wisely installed random plain unmodified off the shelf PC burners in their recorders, super-easy to replace.) The point that disturbs us is there's NO obvious equivalent Sony burner model available to the consumer at retail that can be inexpensively cannibalized for repair parts. Not only the circuit board but the ENTIRE physical burner is a specific dedicated model Sony supplies only to recorder manufacturers. It is only available thru parts dealers for an astronomical $287-325 price. In theory you could buy a bottom of the line Sony recorder and remove its drive for use in a Pioneer, but that's still $180 and as Hkan confirmed you would have to deeply disassemble the burners to trade electronics, scary on the Pioneer because its nerve center is in the burner. And Pioneer practically welds the damn thing to the chassis- I have yet to figure out how to remove it with breaking something in the recorder. For whatever reason, Pioneer is now in total lockdown "frustrate the DIY repairer at any cost" mode: maybe they've been reading these forums?

Anyway it hardly seems cost-effective in a manufacturing sense for Sony to subcontract this one burner for use only in recorders- the market is not big enough to make it worthwhile. My guess is someone will eventually figure out what third-party burner model the Sony DRW-V35A is really based on- Lite-On? Samsung? etc. Since it didn't appear until after Sony stopped making its own burners, it is very unlikely to actually be made by Sony, but its possible. Personally I think they just redesigned the casing to make it look weird and remove any OEM identification markings. Photo below is of the DRW-V35A inside a Sony-branded recorder (top) and a Pioneer recorder (bottom):

[Seeker47]

does that mean that if I have a pioneer dvr-550h and need to "repair" the DVD burner that I wouldn't be able to cannibalise parts from a compatible (new) DVD to use in the repair (this is how I was able to repair the DVD drive in my pioneer dvr-530h; instead, I'd have to buy a new DVD burner (and wonder which one would be compatible) to replace the original?

Exactly: since the "merger" of Pioneer and Sony DVD Recorder designs that began with the 640, you CANNOT repair a dead Pioneer burner by swapping parts from your recorder burner to a new, cheap off-the-shelf Pioneer PC burner of the same model. The actual burner inside the model 640 and all later Pioneers is a one-off custom Sony-branded unit with no equivalent PC model available at retail. So far no one has been able to determine from whom Sony is sourcing this special burner, most likely its a LiteOn but the true burner mfr remains unidentifiable. Eventually some intrepid soul will completely disassemble one and figure it out, until that happens all us Pioneer owners are on edge regarding future burner breakdown.

orsetto,
this came up for discussion in at least one earlier thread here. Right now, I don't recall if you were one of the participants, but it seems quite possible. I mentioned what I had found in the Service Manual for the 640. If the system will allow it, I will attach the relevant snapshot I extracted from this, below. The unit "RW-L11X" sounds suspiciously similar to the 111 Pioneer burner designation. (Fairly early during the period the 640 was being sold, someone told me the burner was functionally similar to the 111 . . . but at this point I don't recall who.) If there is anything to this, it may be that some production models of the 640 had such a burner, or, at the very least, Pioneer had planned to use it at the time the service manual was written. But you seem confident that things turned out otherwise.

As you said, we may not know for sure until someone fully disassembles one of these -- and maybe someone who knows just what to look for. In the meantime, I take some encouragement from what you indicated about the apparent hardiness of the 640 burner. (Perhaps it falls in the anomalous range, but my 520 has seen regular, extensive use since I got it -- which must be a couple years now -- and the burner in that one is still getting the job done.)

[orsetto]

Yes, "seeker47" and I had a dialog on another thread regarding changes to the burner on recent Pioneer models. It more or less covers everything discussed in this thread, but I thought it worth repeating here since this thread specifically calls out Sony/Pioneer as a subject.

"seeker47" has the actual Pio 640 service manual, a page of which he handily included in his post. The manual does indeed indicate Pioneer apparently expected to use a variation of their own excellent 111 burner in the 640, at least when the manual was printed. However in practice, I have never seen anything but the weird Sony burner installed in the half-dozen 540 or 640 units I've opened up this year. (The Sony burner betrays itself by the two wingtips on its case- see my photos- Pio burners do not have this). Also, as Hkan of Pioneerfaq has verified, Pioneer heavily modifies this Sony burner by "sandwiching" the recorder motherboard into it. This is a fairly significant internal design change from previous recorders that used Pioneers own burners: the burners in those units are completely separate modules from the motherboard, really they are no more than standard off-the-shelf Pioneer PC burners with a slight firmware alteration.

"seeker47", if you could dig a little further into the schematics of your 640 service manual, it would be interesting to know if the main video processor, CPU and other vital parts are shown as being on a separate board not physically attached to the burner. If so, that would indicate you might have a prototype manual printed before Pioneer pulled a last minute redesign stunt involving Sony. The whole "motherboard inside the burner" nonsense is WAY too complicated a design change for Pioneer to have made in the middle of 640 production run: it would have killed their profit margin. I think we'll eventually discover the Pio 111 never made it into production 640s and they all have the Sony system. Although I hope I'm wrong: for those lucky few of you who might have a Pioneer 640 with a Pioneer 111 burner inside it, replacing your burner when the time comes would be SO much easier.

[Seeker47]

"seeker47", if you could dig a little further into the schematics of your 640 service manual, it would be interesting to know if the main video processor, CPU and other vital parts are shown as being on a separate board not physically attached to the burner. If so, that would indicate you might have a prototype manual printed before Pioneer pulled a last minute redesign stunt involving Sony. The whole "motherboard inside the burner" nonsense is WAY too complicated a design change for Pioneer to have made in the middle of 640 production run: it would have killed their profit margin. I think we'll eventually discover the Pio 111 never made it into production 640s and they all have the Sony system. Although I hope I'm wrong: for those lucky few of you who might have a Pioneer 640 with a Pioneer 111 burner inside it, replacing your burner when the time comes would be SO much easier.

orsetto,
I have no doubt that you must be a whole lot better at reading these things (with understanding) than I am. I almost flunked out of mechanical drawing, when I had that class way, way back in jr. High. Therefore, I'll be glad to email you the 640 service manual, either to your PM mailbox here, or somewhere else if the file turns out to be too large. As a practical matter, I doubt I can tend to this until after ~ 1/5, however.

When the time comes, I sure would hope to discover a 111 in that chassis -- slim prospect tho' it may be -- as I bought a spare 111 around the same time I bought the 640, just for that purpose.