SUPER's vid bit rate miscalculated?

[uglijimus]

I decided to start converting all over as if I just started for the first time. I tried out a bunch of different programs, and for my needs, SUPER was the best. I have one problem though and it's kind of a big one. First of all I should say that my containter is always AVI and my output video codec is DIVX and output audio codec is MP3.

Let's say I have a video I want to convert and it's vid bit rate is 850. I always put it a little bit above that like 870 or 900 so there won't be a loss in quality. If I were to set it to 900 though, the quality would be horrible and the converted video's vid bit rate would be something like 300. In order for me to get it above 850 I would have to set the vid rate extremely high like around 3000 and then the converted video rate would be around 1000 or so. Does anyone know why this is? I really want to use only SUPER but as you can guess it's pretty difficult to encode videos this way.


any advice is appreciated

[redwudz]

Try selecting MEncoder instead of ffmpeg with SUPER. I set SUPER to 1008kbps for a sample file. When I used ffmpeg with the 'High Quality' settings, it came out at 960kbps. When I added in 'Top Quality' it came out at 460kbps. When I used MEncoder and 'Hi quality', it came out at 1008kbps.

SUPER is just a front end/GUI for several programs and codecs. If you want better control of the codec, use a program that give you direct access to the codec settings. I use VirtualDub Mod for that.

[theewizard]

if you play the video in vlc you can open a window showing you the input bitrates and the output bit rate (to the display) ..

I use this info to guide my choice of conversion bitrates

which i try to set to match the output display bitrate

as the input bitrate ( comming from the file ) is less and varies with the codec of the source

a higher compression h264 file will show a higher input bitrate than than an Xvid file of the same source size

[uglijimus]

Try selecting MEncoder instead of ffmpeg with SUPER. I set SUPER to 1008kbps for a sample file. When I used ffmpeg with the 'High Quality' settings, it came out at 960kbps. When I added in 'Top Quality' it came out at 460kbps. When I used MEncoder and 'Hi quality', it came out at 1008kbps.

SUPER is just a front end/GUI for several programs and codecs. If you want better control of the codec, use a program that give you direct access to the codec settings. I use VirtualDub Mod for that.

Well mencoder is not as quality effective as the ffmpeg selection which the creator of SUPER said himself, so that's out. However you post gave me an idea and I started to play with the top quality and hi quality features. If I only have the hi quality feature selected, I can get an file equivalent to the vid bit rate I set it at! As for quality, so far it seems the same as when I used to use SUPER (that is I had all the features checked) so hopefully this will work and if it does, I owe it to you! Now I just gotta figure out why the video is upside down when I put it in my Boilsoft AVI splitter. Anyway thanks! Oh, and one more thing, half the videos I put into Virtual Dub Mod, it can't even process them, so I never had much luck with that. I've always thought SUPER was the best because it's the only encoder that I know of that can change the vid size, vid bit rate (as high as 9500 or something like that), the aspect, the container, output video codec/audio codec, the frame rate (very important!) AND I'm not sure about it's key frame rate but I'd say it's probably putting in a key frame every 10 frames or so which makes it really easy for editing.


btw, what's a GUI, I see it sometimes in this forum...

[uglijimus]

if you play the video in vlc you can open a window showing you the input bitrates and the output bit rate (to the display) ..

I use this info to guide my choice of conversion bitrates

which i try to set to match the output display bitrate

as the input bitrate ( comming from the file ) is less and varies with the codec of the source

a higher compression h264 file will show a higher input bitrate than than an Xvid file of the same source size

thanks for the post. I tried it and it worked. Never knew you could do that with VLC. the only thing is the vid bit rate was changing as I was watching it! Is that normal?

[theewizard]

yes, I just use a rounded of number of the highest display rate, like 1800, it depends on the video

many files some avi and especailly MKV have packed bit streams, which means the mediainfo and gspot don't return accurate bitrate of the file compression

a 700 meg mkv with H264/avc encoding is highly compressed 'packed' bit stream, is higher quailty image than dvix or Xvid of the same file size, but boy is it a pain to convert to other file types

[redwudz]

GUI = Graphic User Interface. SUPER and many freeware or shareware programs use several programs to accomplish what they want to do. Some programs are 'command line' and don't have a GUI, such as AVIsynth, ffmpeg and others. The GUI makes it easier for most of us to use them.

Divx and Xvid, by default, place keyframes every 300 frames. Not a problem unless you want to do frame accurate editing. SUPER may be changing that to a different rate. But a higher rate will make a larger file.

SUPER probably uses a 'script' to adjust the encoder settings. The GUI adjusts that script, but it appears somewhat limited. For most codecs, there are quite a few adjustment available. That's why I use VD as I can access all of them. But it's a bit more work to set up. Convenience has it's limitations.

[45tripp]

Never knew you could do that with VLC. the only thing is the vid bit rate was changing as I was watching it! Is that normal?

yes, I just use a rounded of number of the highest display rate, like 1800, it depends on the video

It's normal because you have variable bitrate.
gspot and mediainfo display average bitrate. Peak bitrate is completely different.
If you'd like to see bitrate distibution, use videoinspector for avi. Immediate quick display.
For mkv, haali creates a realtime bitrate graph, always providing the av. bitrate value as well.

many files some avi and especailly MKV have packed bit streams, which means the mediainfo and gspot don't return accurate bitrate of the file compression

Packed bitstream has nothing to do with bitrate or the ability of gspot and mediainfo to return accurate bitrate values. They are accurate.
Gspot doesn't support mkv, use mediainfo for that.

Some programs are 'command line' and don't have a GUI, such as AVIsynth, ffmpeg and others.

Not that it matters, but avisynth isn't a command line app.

Divx and Xvid, by default, place keyframes every 300 frames. Not a problem unless you want to do frame accurate editing. SUPER may be changing that to a different rate. But a higher rate will make a larger file.

It won't actually.
Shorter keyframe intervals reduce compressibility but the file size will be the same;
Unless you are encoding with constant quantization, which of course you can not do with Super.
Yes, quality will take a hit unless you select a higher bitrate.

I haven't tested, but super probably sets a diff keyframe density, like the op says.

gl

[uglijimus]

Shorter keyframe intervals reduce compressibility but the file size will be the same;
Unless you are encoding with constant quantization, which of course you can not do with Super.
Yes, quality will take a hit unless you select a higher bitrate.

I haven't tested, but super probably sets a diff keyframe density, like the op says.

gl

So are you saying that a video encoded by SUPER at 1000 vid bit rate vs. say another encoding program that has keyframe intervals of 300 will be of less quality because the keyframe interval is less?

[45tripp]

yes

[uglijimus]

any idea as to how much i need to up the vid bit rate in order for there to be no loss of quality?

thanks

[theewizard]

it's not just the bitrate, key frames are clean images

1 key frame every 300 , is 1 new key frame every 10-15 seconds depending on frame rate, 25fps is 1500 frames a minute.

every frame after a key frame is an alteration an has degradation of the previous frame due to encoding loss

the higher the bitrate the lower the loss, but if you spread the key frames too far apart , they loss between key frames is too great and the quality suffers no matter how high the bit rate is

as for bit rate, i use what i find in VLC

I use super for several things, one is too create 3g2 videos for my phone

the other is to extract or convert from source to another stage ( when the source won't frame serve correctly )

I don't use it to create dvix files to put on disc to play

you did NOT say what your source is, IF your using ripped dvds as source material, i think i would be using DrDvix or some other encoder to produce dvix files for disc

[45tripp]

any idea as to how much i need to up the vid bit rate in order for there to be no loss of quality?

no
depends on source compressibility
not by much!
you shouldn't notice at all really.

if you want control over your encodes,
don't use Super!

gl

[uglijimus]

as for bit rate, i use what i find in VLC

you did NOT say what your source is, IF your using ripped dvds as source material, i think i would be using DrDvix or some other encoder to produce dvix files for disc

as for VLC, it only displayed the audio bit rate, not the video one.

my source files range anywhere from video files (any container, avi, ogg, etc) to vobs.

[uglijimus]

any idea as to how much i need to up the vid bit rate in order for there to be no loss of quality?

no
depends on source compressibility
not by much!
you shouldn't notice at all really.

if you want control over your encodes,
don't use Super!

gl

like I said before, if there is a program out there that will let me have control over

1. vid bit rate
2. audio bit rate plus Hz
3. frame rate
4. have the container as an avi, the output video codec as divx, the audio codec as mp3
5. use at least 80% of the files I throw into it regardless of container
6. doesn't crash!
7. what sections of it to encode

then I'd be more than happy to try it out!

[theewizard]

well for me vlc displayed the video bitrate

super doesn't crash, for me any way

but i don't use it for all projects

super lets you set all those these settings

it just not tripps favorite program

its not my favorite for mpegs & dvd,

it is my favorite for 3g2 or flv conversion, or avi extraction from a PITA file format like mkv

[45tripp]

1. vid bit rate
2. audio bit rate plus Hz
3. frame rate
4. have the container as an avi, the output video codec as divx, the audio codec as mp3
5. use at least 80% of the files I throw into it regardless of container
6. doesn't crash!
7. what sections of it to encode

tmpg xpress 4 comes to mind.

There is also a lot you can do with vdubmod.
it just needs a bit of setting up.

5. use at least 80% of the files I throw into it regardless of container

the hard part.
if you can load you can encode.
again you make no mention of what sources you work with.

it just not tripps favorite program

i recommend it often enough

gl

[theewizard]

theewizard wrote:
it just not tripps favorite program

i recommend it often enough

yes you do, i stand corrected. excuse me.

[uglijimus]

I've heard of TMPEGenc before maybe I'll give it a try though it doesn't look you can convert to avi and doesn't look to newbie friendly.

I'm sure VirtualModdub is a good program but i don't have the time to set up each time a put a video file in.

You said I don't list my sources, what do you mean? like the containers that the files come in? ie. AVI, OGG, MPEG etc?

thanks, I'm going to check out that TMPEGenc.

[45tripp]

I've heard of TMPEGenc before maybe I'll give it a try though it doesn't look you can convert to avi and doesn't look to newbie friendly.

It's friendly.
You can. You can use your system's vfw and acm codecs.
It also has a built in divx codec, and profile settings to encode to divx container,
essentially the avi container with a few more capabilities.
You won't be using the advanced dmf features, so it'll be just like an avi.

Tmpg will work much like vdubmod.
a bit easier to work,
easier to import into, you just set up/install the directshow filters and file splitters,
but,
you only now mention batch encoding, and tmpg is like vdubmod, adding one file at
a time into a batch job list.

I'm sure VirtualModdub is a good program but i don't have the time to set up each time a put a video file in.

quality vs time...
you can try automating parts of the process or the whole thing with better tools.
it would take a lot of time to initially set up, but if keep doing the same things,
ultimately it'll be worth it.

You said I don't list my sources, what do you mean? like the containers that the files come in? ie. AVI, OGG, MPEG etc?

container.
codecs.
the info you'd get from mediainfo.

gl

[uglijimus]

I think you're right when you said quality vs. time. I tried out Tmpegenc (sorry, whatever it's called) and it rejected the first video file I threw into it which was simply an avi from my digital camera. So considering how much tinkering I'd probably have to do for all of my files to be encoded without any errors would just take too much time. I think I'm pretty happy with SUPER for now and am going to keep using it, but thanks for the recommendation.