Problems with IDE, jumpers and questions?

[soul2]

Hi All, I'm new here and ignorant of (oh! so many!) pc know-how's! I've trawled through several forums and knowledge bases today and I'm either not posing my q. correctly or I'm even more of an idiot than I'd already assumed.
My desktop was originally second-hand but has been changed/upgraded, memory increased + OS upgraded and generally improved many times over the past few years but for the last year it's been more idle than used. A few months ago a dvd +/- r/rw writer (emprex drw11161m) was installed but little time to learn much about it. During the time pc wasn't being used, a friend also replaced a cd player that was long since obsolete (i.e. it had come with the original win 95 desktop package and so grimy + dusty it hardly opened). For the first time this week I've tried to use the dvd writer but it will only accept cd and not dvd. Its taken me some time to understand that its maybe set incorrectly (slave?master?cable select?) so I printed out some general advice and went for broke. I think I can understand the different connections re. ide cable but when it comes to the explanation about jumper(s) - I just don't get it; despite the explanations from various sources telling me how simple it is! I still can't comprehend how I 'set' it to slave, master or beggar, come to that! Neither can I figure out how the rewriter was set (when the shop installed it) when the original cd-rom was still in there.
I hope this makes some kind of sense and if a reader can stop laughing long enough to reply I'd be grateful of some basics.....bearing in mind I've never seen my pc's innards until today and the bits of unrelated/unconnected wiring is a big puzzle to me anyway

[Stormin Norman II]

If thats the only drive, set it to master and on the cable connector it should say master or slave.

[oldfolk999]

You need to increase your ram memory first. I am not sure how much work you can do with just 198 running XP.

[Nilfennasion]

198 running XP will work fine, as long as the user of the drive doesn't mind burning at the slowest possible speed and the possibility of the drive struggling to keep up with it as the buffer keeps emptying and filling. Then again, I have an idiot relative who has the exact same problem with a 64-bit 2.10 GHz processor and a gig of RAM because he wantonly installs anything and everything on it, and the registry is bloated enough to make his machine run like an old 486.

[redwudz]

A few ideas. Go to the manufacturers site for your DVD drive. They should have the jumper settings readily available. If your drive has the settings marked on the drive like Stormin Norman II showed, great. If not, get back to us with the make and model and we should be able to find them for you.

An IDE PC cable has three connectors, the first goes to the motherboard, commonly blue. The second is for the Slave drive (commonly grey) and the third or the one on the end of the cable is for the Master drive (commonly black). So if your drive is set to master it's on the end. If it's set to slave, it's in the middle. You can have only one slave and one master on each IDE channel.

Most PCs have two IDE channels. The first is generally used for the boot drive as Device 0. Device 1 can be used for a CD or DVD or another HD. The second channel can be used for HD, CD, DVD. It also has a Device 0 and 1.

Variations to this: All drives are set to CS or Cable Select. Get back to us if that is the case.

And welcome to our forums.

And soul2, in the future please use a more descriptive subject title in your posts to allow others to search for similar topics. I will change yours this time. From our rules:

Try to choose a subject that describes your topic.
Please do not use topic subjects like Help me!!! or Problems.

Thanks, Moderator redwudz

And this would likely be better in the Computer Forum. Moving you.

[soul2]

Thanks for all your advice...Sto.Norm, for taking the trouble to post the pic. for me to see. Oldfolk, for the RAM info. Nils. The future probs. I'm likely to encounter. Last but not least, Red., for your info and slap on wrist ...I'm now suitably alert and will endeavour to avoid innattention to rules again! D
1. I looked at it in daylight this a.m. and it was easy to see what to do minus having to rely on electric & torch light as was the case last night! I was still convinced this was the problem but it can't have been as restarting it immediately showed up my error.
2. I knew about the RAM but I've been kindly offered, gratis, a different pc that has faster cpu and sufficient memory but I can't do much until I've got my stuff saved elsewhere - besides which I'm undecided whether to stick with what I've got.
3. If you wouldn't mind pointing me in the direction of where to seek the info. of 1/2 IDE channels and the 0 and 1....I shall check this. I assumed there was only 1 because of the one IDE cable connecting the cd + dvd. With regards the manu's. site, I checked that yesterday but could only find info. on what its capabilities were. Admittedly, I was more interested to learn why the 2nd cd (liveupdate, the 1st was a nero) wasn't working correctly. The only thing I could find about it was in prefetch. On another attempt it still wouldn't install properly and one thing leading to many others, I came across 3 different installshield versions with differing drivers in my c drive and one from the dark ages in my f drive. I thought it may be a good idea to try and correct that first so having done that I'll start over tomorrow.
Thanks again.

[ahhaa]

Take the other machine! You can pull your hard drive and any other useful bits and install them easily, but more RAM & a faster CPU will make a big diff. You can install your HD in the new machine & lose nothing- just copy from one HD to the other.

Windows installs any spinner as a CD-ROM by default. You need the correct drivers, & a DVD burning program to make it work right. These are usually supplied on the discs that came with the burner.

On the IDE cables, there is an older type that has 40 pins, and a newer EIDE that has 80- both with the same connectors. 80 pin cables work with everything.

General advice: if you have a digital camera, take CUs of all your hardware ID info - the serial & model numbers of the drives, RAM, & cards particularly. Go online & download the most current drivers & pdf manuals as needed- usually you can just enter the Manufacturer & Model number right into google. You'll need a computer to do that- another reason to grab the second computer!:]

[Nelson37]

1. Having just upgraded two different old PC with 128 and 192 Mb of RAM on WinXP, 256 or 384 will make a dramatic difference and is dirt cheap.

2. If both drives will read a disk of any kind, your jumper settings and cable are fine and do not need to be messed with. Just a driver load issue. Download them and install.

3. The wide cable on the back of the drive - the ribbon cable - known as the data cable, or ide cable, will go from one of two connectors on the mainboard. Follow the cable, the second connector will be right beside it. Often numbered 0 and 1 rather than 1 and 2, sometimes Primary and Secondary. Boot drive needs to be on Primary unless you can change boot order in BIOS Setup. HD should not share channel with optical drive. Unless the cable is a Cable Select cable, and drives are jumpered to use CS, the Master, Slave, and Motherboard markings on the IDE cable can be ignored. Position is not mandatory.

[soul2]

and...further thanks Ahhaa + Nelson.
Was able to find most of the puzzle clues today. i.e. 1's + 0's etc. It all seems to be set up right. From what I can see there only seems to be 2 ide cables, one going to the floppy and the other connected to cd + dvd and set right. primary/secondary
It would appear that I didn't install the 2nd cd correctly (the firmware) having succesfully done that today I feel even more stupid than at first posting

In my defence I would like to explain that what started this mess was a) not knowing if I should have installed the drivers for the cd-rom replacement. b) the haste to be able to get everything backed up in time enough if I did take up the kind offer rendered me into panic-mode (i.e. definitely un-safe-mode!)

Agreed that a faster comp. sounds like a good deal. My reservation is that the source of this kindness is the same (also kindly) as swapped the old cd-rom (plus many other enhancements). without fully explaining if I need to know anything for future ref. (In the past, if I've queried or dithered the impatience can hit me like a tangible wall!) I may not get any choices in what good things I can keep or not. The only anology I can provide is a kindly neighbour turning up on your doorstep offering to change your vehicle, no questions asked, for a better one without giving you the preparation time to work out what your disadvantages / advantages may be and knowing from experience that once committed; you can't change your mind! Particularly if you barely know which bit you put the fuel/water/oil into!
Hope you understand the dilemma. A lot of $ has gone into this piece of equipment over the past 3 yrs and I wouldn't want to lose the lot for the sake of speed.

[ahhaa]

From what I can see there only seems to be 2 ide cables, one going to the floppy and the other connected to cd + dvd and set right. primary/secondary
It would appear that I didn't install the 2nd cd correctly (the firmware) having succesfully done that today

OK... the cable going to the floppy is not an IDE cable. If you have a cable going to the CD & DVD, that's fine, but there should be another cable going to the Hard Drive- that is the primary IDE and should be in the lowest number socket on the motherboard (mobo).

If its a swap, that's something different. But if want to learn about computers, there's a world of difference between tinkering with a working computer that you need everyday, and having a spare unit that you can feel free to format the HD or change the BIOS, etc. Its like having a jalopy to work on, not the car you need for work.

One other point if you are setting up for video work. It is very time-intensive- capturing, burning, transcoding; all that time you can't really use your main computer for anything else.

[soul2]

Thanks Ahhaa for the new lesson. I understood most of it LOL! Have progressed a bit further today. I'm so sorry to waste further of your time as I've googled the latest info. and tried to research the results as far as they seemed applicable but it still posed more questions. With trying to write the pc info. and personal info (for backing it all up) onto dvd disc (dvd+r) - the pc coming up with wrong disc and to replace with cd...though its not a cd. From what the research info was I should uninstall the thing from device driver and reboot for it to recognise dvd r/writer. I'll attempt that one tomorrow + hope that puts it right. The only thing that I may have missed was perhaps d/load the relevant drivers for the replacement cd drive (i.e. the original cd was removed + replaced by a different make AFTER the dvd r/writer had been installed) ??
Sorry for all the vagaries, I find that with some things online, the more I try to learn, the more the info. only applies to part of the particular problem but not all.

[ahhaa]

It can happen that installing one driver screws up another- turning your DVD writer into a CD-RW or even CD-ROM (you can see this in My Computer when loading a disc- it changes). Might have something to do with both drives being on the same cable- I dunno.

Here's whatcha do:

Go to START>CONTROL PANEL>SYSTEM>DEVICE MANAGER>DVD/CD-ROM drives & open the PROPERTIES of each drive (Right Click on blue-highlighted drive).

Fool around in there & see what you find. Write it down! There is a Troubleshooter, and it even has a wizard that goes online & finds you the latest correct driver.

I'd uninstall one of the drives, and get the other working perfectly- the CD writer is the easiest, but the DVD drive does both jobs. Again, the DVD drive will not function without player/burner software, not just a driver. A CD-RW will burn using the native XP software- its very convenient for some. Your underpowered machine may run better without a 2nd drive too. Gotta play around a bit...

Trust the Force, Newbie-wan!:]

[soul2]

Thanks Ahhaa, Think that the newer, 2nd-hand replacement for cd maybe is what turned dvdrw into cd too. I'm going downward-spiralling in trying to understand what sequence I need to try to correct. i.e. I got email today from someone who worked on my pc in past (but nothing to do with this) and suggested I d/load firmware for dvdrw, (think I did this at some point over the w/end) but did it (again?) anyway; which made no difference, still won;t recognise a dvd. I did d/load drivers for cd (sony cdu 4811) but as far as I've gone with it because I just don't know anymore what I should do first. i.e.
1.) disable/uninstall dvdrw from device manager, then try to install the drivers for cd.
2.) Just install sony drivers as is.
3.) Don't bother with cd driver download at all as that might not be the problem.
(The FAQ on Emprex site answer was to return as it may be defective.) I don't think it is because although the Props. for location 0 is sony cdu4811 and location 1 is dvdrwide16x, both of them have identical driver files. ok, ok, maybe thats how it's supposed to be. (try not laugh too much!) If it is then it's confused my addled wits further!
I already tried the troubleshooter but none of the options exactly matched my experience. I chose two that were near-ish but then got bogged down further with ms decoders + complicating things further by hit/missing what wasn't germane anyway. I've search-engined every sentence that pc has provided and none of the answers fit my set up, just frustrated the problem further! (The only things I'm upgrading is my eye-glasses since I'm now X-eyed!)
Another pal suggested I remove the dvdrw completely and put it back in. My brain only able to work on a.b.c.-mode , I asked take it out, reboot, shutdown, refit, reboot? Or remove it and refit in one go then reboot? Which one? The answer was "yes" !! My next question "yes, which?" The answer, "yes" !!?!! It was midnight by then. I did neither.

[Nelson37]

I would shut down, disconnect both optical drives, power up, and shut down again. This should remove both drives from Device Manager. Then connect ONLY the DVD drive, power up, and load drivers and software. IF and only IF this works, then connect the CD.

The DVD is what you want to work. The cd is not necessary to make the DVD work. It also adds a complicating factor. SIMPLIFY.

You may want to consider whether you need the CD at all. When DVD burners were $200.00, it made some sense to use the cheaper CD drive for CD's, saving wear and tear on the DVD. But with the low prices today, This is no longer really necessary.

[soul2]

Nelson37! (collapsing into blubbering joy at the simplicity of what you've advised!)
Thank you!
Shall do that first thing tomorrow. - don't take this as a threat but i'll let you know results
many thanks
from worn-out-braincells
aka soul2

[ahhaa]

Nelson is right- simplify the situation.

IMPORTANT! you mentioned firmware- that is not the same as a driver; it is a flashed upgrade of the contents of the memory ROM in the drive itself.
People at your level of understanding should not attempt it themselves, especially on a screwed up machine. The process is not reversible.

"...the Props. for location 0 is sony cdu4811 and location 1 is dvdrwide16x, both of them have identical driver files..."

this seems incorrect; the only way they could be identical if they were default windows ATAPI drivers, which will only drive CD-ROMs, which may work for the sony cdu4811, but not the DVD.

dvdrwide16x -- this makes no sense; it would if it was mebbe dvd+/-R IDE 16X.

Remove the DVD unit and look carefully at the labelling on the top. Find the Maker, Model, Revision (if any) and serial number. Copy this down, or xerox it or whatever makes you happy! Enter the Make & Model into Google- some of the listings should take you to the correct driver downloads. Here's one for Emprex:
http://list.driverguide.com/list/company1499/index.html
Here's Emprex- they don't list drivers, just firmware here, but only seem to have 2 16X IDE models.

Or, if the machine will go online itself, use the XP driver update wizard as described previously.

DO YOU HAVE THE SOFTWARE DISK(S) THAT CAME WITH THE DVD DRIVE? YOU WILL NEED THEM!:]

[soul2]

Thanks again, Ahhaa, Ppl on diaper level sometimes got few choices We either able to afford to take it somewhere or rely heavily on the wealth of knowledge of ppl like all of you on forums like this + remain extremely grateful.
Thanks also for firmware explanation - so its too late then as that done already.
My titling was a typo its dvd +/- writer (drw11161M) and yes, have s/ware discs.
soul2

[soul2]

Many, many, thanks all, (especially Ahhaa + Nelson37) for the help you've provided this week. Following your advice, I disconnected both + reconnected just the dvd and it's made a difference, have also added 512ram so all improved. Not just that but all the learning I've gained this week is entirely thanks to you + this forum. ... go well. s2

[ahhaa]

s2- no prob; now you are in the DVD biz, you might enjoy this UK forum too (they've been known to drive over to fix stuff!:]) : http://ccgi.mgillespie.plus.com/liteon/smf/index.php

[Nelson37]

Did you re-install the drivers or just re-connect the DVD after removing both drives in Windows?

The question this will answer is whether it was a strict incompatibility between the two drives, a driver load issue, or a combination of both. Note that if you did re-install the drivers, it still could be both unless you re-connect the CD and report test results. There would still be the possibility that a slight incompatibility prevented the driver from loading correctly.

Just to give you an idea of the number of angles that must be considered.

[soul2]

And hello to Ahhaa + Nelson ('my' favourite advisors! ) A. when you mentioned about 'they've been known to drive over and fix stuff'...was that an intended pun? N. the number of angles to consider has kept apace with the number of hoops I've jumped through; I'd be superbly fit by now if it wasn't for the vast amount of hours tied to k/board
Sorry N., I think I just reconnected the dvd and installed the discs (nero + liveupdate)...so proud was I that I'd acheived those tasks successfully despite dropping jumpers a number of times.
It was a bit more successful in the fact that it recognised it was a dvd (in the sense it did attempt to play a dvd, more than it did before) but when I tried to burn - it still rejected the disc, advising I should use a cd. I think I'd tried troubleshooting originally but the problem I had wasn't one of the options. At some point I've tried updating drivers (for both) during the past week and that was telling me they already were. To be honest, I've attempted so many possibities + searched phasing for clues, that I can no longer recall step by step. All is confusion (who was that? Suede?) but I've made huge discoveries and learned a lot so thats been good.
Anyway, don't reach for sharp instruments, but because a lot of the sentences I'd search-engined this week had returned faulty equipment to be the cause, a relative must've taken pity as a b/day present was a multi-format dvd rewriter! I haven't dared remove the packaging! I need to understand if the problem I have is user or equipment first. For some reason during the past 2 days, I disconnected the dvd and reconnected the cd. Can't remember what for now but driver details are still same as dvd was (with/without) separate connection. s2

[ahhaa]

S2- you keep changing the variables, making it difficult to analyze the problem.

Every time you change something, Windows reacts, changing its own configuration. If you don't uninstall/remove all the old drivers & such when you change things around, AND KEEP TRACK OF YOUR CHANGES, then the substitution method (which is very useful in diagosing many computer problems) just won't work.

Here's your test setup:

HD DVD R/W (End Connector/Master) set jumper appropriately
| · · · · · · ·|
CD R/W · ·| (Middle Connector/Slave) set jumper appropriately
|· · · · · · · |
IDE 1 · · IDE2 (ignore the dots- they are spacers)

First, remove the cable completely from IDE2 & just hook up the HD to IDE 1.
The test is of the CD R/W- forget about the DVD for now.

Start Windows and remove all drivers for 'CD/DVD Devices'.

Shutdown Windows & physically install the CD R/W on the IDE 1 cable with the HD- set jumper correctly, make sure the power & data cables are firmly installed.

Restart Windows- you should see a 'Found New Hardware' announcement- pay attention to what it says: is it a CD-ROM or CD-R/W?

Go ahead with the 'Install new Driver' stuff the best way for you- online or from a disc. Keep track of any specifics Windows offers- write them down!

If you can now see a CD R/W icon in My Computer, insert a blank CD; a window should come up saying 'What do you want to do?' and giving you a list of programs that will burn CDs. You should have at least Nero & the native XP burner. Try the native XP- it is simplest. Drag & drop some files onto the CD window & burn them, then check'em out as a test.

OK, assuming this much is working...

Shut Windows down & install the DVD drive as Master (End connector) on IDE2. Same stuff, check cables for firmly installed, jumper at master, etc.

Restart Windows again. You should get another 'Found New Hardware' window- follow the same procedure. (A complexity here is that, if you have an OEM (came with drive) copy of Nero, it may have the DVD driver on it, and it may be an older version than the Driver Update Wizard will find.)

OK, now check the CD R/W in the My Computer window- it should still say the same thing it said before the DVD install.
If it doesn't, we've found the problem.

If it does, now check the the DVD drive- it should call itself a DVD R/W. Try to play a DVD in it. If that works, try burning a test DVD with Nero.

IF that doesn't work, take the DVD drive & its IDE cable to a 'friendly' repair shop. Ask them to check the drive. (The possible problem here is having flashed the firmware; many drives are rebadged- for example Sony drives can actually be Lite-Ons. A common tech support response these days is to flash an update on the drives; the pitfall is that flashing drives in the same family with inexact firmware can make them into doorstops, at least until the next firmware update comes along. Hopefully this isn't the problem.)

Another option at this point is 'chickening out'; take it all to a recommended repair shop and ask them to clean up your registry, check your drivers, install the new DVD, and optimize the machine for DVD burning. Shouldn't cost much; and pick their brains while at it.
They may even notice other things (like a shortage of RAM) and then you can get on with what you really wanted to do- burn DVDs. All of us have done this at one point or another... When you encounter further problems (and you will) at least you will have a better understanding of what goes wrong & how to deal with it.

[soul2]

Sorry Ahhaa, Things were hectic this week so was rushing at this prob. in odd times rather than waiting. So shall print out your adv. (thank you for that) wait until I don't have to gallop off halfway through and start-finish. .... and probably end up taking it to trusty shop 'cos I've made a one task job into an even bigger mess
Thanks again, I'll tackle over next few days + let you know s2

[soul2]

Hi All, but this especially for Ahhaa and Nelson37, Just to let you know that everything is ok and working now. It did turn out to be a faulty product after all As the dvd rw was a first and not having any experience with them at all, I assumed it was user ignorance and looked for complications.
Because of that I undoubtedly gained a lot of knowledge in a short space of time entirely thanks to the valuable advice of Ahhaa & Nelson37.
Thanks, guys, I hope you've enjoyed your Christmas and wishing u2 (and everyone else, of course) a happy new year.