Sony Vegas 6 - rendering quality

[Lfox]

Hi. First time poster.
I am having quality issues with rendered footage from Vegas 6. I have Sony mini DV camera, import without a problem, but when I render and burn to DVD, the quality is far lower than the original miniDV.
I recorded in HQ widescreen.
I have high powered PC with plenty of HD space and 2 gigs ram. PC not the problem.
There are sooo many selections on the rendering menu (default and editable). I've tried many combinations...nothings working. Including 59,940 Frame rate and 19,400,000 video bps.
What are the best, best, best setting for render HQ widescreen.

Pls help. Going outta my mind!

[vegasarian]

Firstly you need to set your project properties in Vegas to match you're input material.I'm presuming as you're in the States that you shot on NTSC widescreen so you need to go to File>Properties>Template>NTSCDV Widescreen. When you've finished editing you need to render out as MPEG 2 (if you want a DVD) and select the NTSC DV Template.DONT USE THE DEFAULT TEMPLATE!!. Then click the 'custom' button and select render quality..Good, Best or whatever. Done!.

[Lfox]

Thank you. Sounds too easy. I tried that initally, months ago, but quality was not as good as I expected. I've since created new templates with Var bit rate >20,000,000. Sounds like you are saying this is overkill and I'm thinking too much. Maybe my issue is in the quality of the source although I am using Sony DVD405 on HQ. Is it really that simple?

[vegasarian]

Average VBR of 6,000,000 should be fine.When do you lose quality?.Does it look OK in Vegas preview?. Does the rendered MPEG 2 file look OK before burning?.What burning software are you using?.Ah!!! just realised. You said in your first post that you were using a Sony Mini DV...I presumed tape but your loading a DVD from the camera into vegas? Correct?. If so its already in MPEG format from your camera so you need to get it into vegas by file>import>DVD Camcorder Disc. Yea?.

[turk690]

to Lfox, if it's quality you are looking for, one of the first things to do is to avoid using a DVD camcorder. They have two distinct disadvantages: they record directly to MPEG, which under some conditions (low light and very fast moving scenes) can produce blockiness that can be seen on large TV sets (which many of us are wont to have nowadays); and to mitigate this one has to use the highest quality mode available (CBR or VBR 8.0mb/s or so) which in turn only gives about 15mins of recording on a single 3" blank DVD.
Personally, I can live with the slightly under-par quality even at the highest bitrate settings (ok only the extremes of video-taking conditions are really likely to produce wretched video), but damn if I have to change discs every 15mins or so.
Ultimately, re-encoding an MPEG file will maul it the second time around which is why true blue people like us like to avoid it when we can. An encoder (h/w or s/w, realtime or offline) turns a non-compressed file or stream into MPEG, which a second encoder may (or may not) uncompress back to RGB or YUV before turning it to another MPEG stream or file. While there are some standards set in stone before something can be called an MPEG encoder, there are enough variations allowed such that there are a multitude of encoders/decoders out there that cost between free and $50,000, with the same scale in variation of quality. Some encoder pairs hit it well and the re-encoded file or stream is none the worse for kvetchiness. Some pairs actually degrade each other, and this is where your situation may fall in: the encoder in Vegas may not be as compatible as we'd like with the h/w encoder inside the Sony camcorder.
To avoid this, a roundabout way can be tried: there may be a setting in Vegas (or some third-party program) where you can try re-encoding the native camcorder MPEG files to DV-AVI, editing that, AND then outputting it with the Vegas encoder. I'm not familiar with DVD camcorders, but with the JVC Everio hard-drive camcorders, a utiltity comes with it that allows me to uncompress the MPEG files (*.mod) back to AVI with a DV codec of my choice. There are three important things with my case: I use the highest quality settings (8.5mb/s VBR+Dolby Digital 384kb/s stereo), converting it back to DV-AVI (using an MC codec) makes it infinitely easier to edit, & the quality is visibly better than if I tried forcing the native HDD MPEG files (*.mod renamed to *.mpg) through either TMPGEnc or Cinema Craft Basic WITHOUT having made it AVI 1st.

[bobkart]

Assuming the MPEG2 video on the DVD that comes out of his camcorder is already DVD-Compliant, then he can just re-author with that as the source and incur zero re-encoding.

But he says he has a MiniDV camcorder, as opposed to one that records to a DVD.

[vegasarian]

Well he said he had a Mini DV in his first post and in his second post he mentioned a Sony DVD 405 which is what confused me. I'm no expert on these cameras but Google tells me it records onto DVD which is not good news if he also wants to edit in Vegas (or any other NLE) as the high compression makes it pretty innacurate plus the quality hit of a second render. I gather these cameras were developed to just let people 'shoot and watch' on DVD with no post production.

[bobkart]

So the questions to Lfox are:

- is the camcorder MiniDV or DVD-based?
- if DVD-based, why do you want to encode for DVD when it's already encoded on DVD? You just need an application that can re-author DVD-based material to a new DVD without re-encoding, if anything. Like TDA (that's what I use).

[Lfox]

aplogies for delayed response. GREATLY appreciate the insight/thread.

I HAD a sony mini-DV, but have been using (and was referring to mini-DVD)...eye-opener based on your responses.
My goal is to take the raw footage from mini-DVD and edit in/out content, add music, photos, transitions, etc. I figured using mini-DVD would give me best high-end results. Clearly I was wrong.

To Vegasarian - edited footage looks ok (not 100% great). I am using Sony DVD Architect to burn.

I'm getting the sense that either use a program like TDA (thx bobkart) or re-encode native camcorder mpeg files..

Sounds like it might be easier to buy a high-end HardDrive HD Cameras and use Vegas to do my edits... (I was a former Premiere 6.5 user with above Avg skills... I'm in new territory with Mini-DVD, Vegas, Architect, etc..

I greatly appreciate the help so far. I hate to suck up air-time... if better to point me to an existing thread, I am fine with that.

[bobkart]

I think the one thing you don't want to do is re-encode the already-encoded MPEG from the DVD camcorder.

So that leaves as options:

- Use DVD-based MPEG as-is (cuts limited to key frames)
- Mini-DV instead of DVD
- High Definition camcorder as you mentioned

Any of those will give better results than re-encoding.

You should be able to get excellent quality results using Mini-DV assuming a decent camcorder. Of course the HD solution will leave open the option to author to HD-DVD format, preserving the high resolution (1080i).

[Lfox]

Sounds like no easy way to take mini-DVD to Vegas to edited authored DVD. Assuming option 2 & 3 are out, your view is I can still use TDA to reauthor.

[bobkart]

TDA can take its input from one or more finalized DVDs. Then you are free to cut at key frames (typically every half second), and assemble the parts you keep into another DVD, no re-encoding, that's the key.

[vegasarian]

Apart from the TDA option, there are 2 Programs which edit DVD without re-encoding....Womble....
http://www.womble.com/download/
and I think the other one is 'ReDoVideo' or VideoReDo' have a google. I use the Womble MPEG Video Wizard DVD which allows a certain ammount of 'arty' transitions but nothing like Vegas or Premiere although it is really handy for tidying up DVD's. Theres a free trial of womble at that link.

[lacywest]

Thank you. Sounds too easy. I tried that initally, months ago, but quality was not as good as I expected. I've since created new templates with Var bit rate >20,000,000. Sounds like you are saying this is overkill and I'm thinking too much. Maybe my issue is in the quality of the source although I am using Sony DVD405 on HQ. Is it really that simple?

http://www.digitalcamera-hq.com/camcorders/sony-dcr-dvd405_reviews.html

Sony's DCR-DVD405 is their high-end model camcorder that writes directly to 8cm DVDs, burning your memories to disc with a high resolution 3 megapixel (total) capture. These DVD camcorders have a lot going for them. They're small, they're simple, and they give you a finished product that you can actually use and share, unlike Mini DV camcorders. Everyone's got a DVD player, and you can mail your finished discs to relatives, or transfer them to your computer for digital sharing. Be sure that your DVD player can handle the different custom disc formats before you settle.

[Lfox]

Vegasarian / Bobcart - I will give your recommendations a try. Many thanks again!