VCD, SVCD, XVCD, XsVCD

[Chakotay2]

Okay, in looking at all the information, it looks as if the best file to create is an XsVCD as far as quality goes, is that correct? I have a Pioneer DV-444 and the board says the following will work with it:
CDR, CDRW, DVDR,DVDRW, DVD+R,DVD+RW,VCD,SVCD,Tracks,XVCD, 2500kbits, XSVCD,MP3 320kbits

Two questions:
1) what is the difference between XVCD and XsVCD?
2) Out of all (except DVD) which is the best format to use on this player for the best quality?

[Chakotay2]

Also, the How to talks about how to create all of the different types but does not have a how to on the XsVCD. Is it the same as a SVCD but change the resolution to 720x480?

[Vejita-sama]

Actually MPEG1 = VCD and MPEG2 = SVCD. There are standard bitrates and resolutions. If you use a non-standard bitrate or resolution than you make an x(S)VCD. xVCD isn't necessarily better than VCD, just non-standard.

At the same resolution and bitrate MPEG1 looks the same as MPEG2. However you can encode MPEG1 faster than MPEG2, so most people choose to make xVCDs.

Resolution: although DVDs are at 720x480; x(S)VCDs should not be set this high. This is because they use a much lower bitrate and at higher resolutions the picture gets to dithered. But if the resolution is to low the picture isn't very sharp.
Long story short most people use: 352x240, 352x480 or 480x480.

Bitrate: The higher the bitrate the better the quaility of your encode. However, most standalone DVD players have a max supported bitrate of ~2880kbit/s total. The VCD/SVCD standard calls for audio at 224kbit/s but I normally lower this to 128kbit/s so I can give a little more bitrate to the video.
The VCD standard calls for video=1150kbit/s and audio=224kbit/s @ 352x240. This works out to 1min=10MB, so a 60min source -> 60MB MPEG. Notice that only the runtime of the source determines the size of your encoded MPEG, the size of the sourc doesn't matter (nor does the size of the source resolution or the encoded resolution).
SVCD standard calls for video bitrate=2520kbit/s and audio=224kbit/s @ 480x480.

Encoding methods: CBR vs. VBR = constant bitrate vs variable bitrate. In CBR you set the bitrate and it's constant for the whole movie. In VBR the bitrate is raised in high motion scences and lowered in low motion scences. In TMPGenc you have two choices CQ_VBR and 2pass VBR.
CQ_VBR = constant quaility VBR. Programs attempts to keep quaility equal across the whole movie w/ a set ave bitrate. There's really no way to predict the final size of your MPEG w/ CQ_VBR.
2pass VBR: TMPGenc makes one CBR pass, than a VBR pass using the CBR pass as a template. It then raises the bitrate in high motion scences and lowers in it low motion scences. But it does so such that the ave bitrate is set. So you can predict the final MPEG size. Settings are: min, max & ave. Normally I set: min=300, max=2520, ave=# from bitrate calculator. So the 2nd pass will lower the bitrate as low as 300kbit/s and raise it as high as 2520kbit/s but in such a way that the ave is what I entered.

As for making an xVCD or xSVCD do a forumn search, if you're really having trouble re-post (someone really should add this to the faq and/or make a guide someday).

[Chakotay2]

Ok, you gave a lot of info...some of which I understood...sorry I am not that technical when it comes to this stuff... so you are saying that VCD SVCD XSVCD and XVCD are pretty much the same? The difference in quality is the bitrate? What do you format do you use/suggest?

[vitualis]

You've missed the point.

VCD and SVCD are standardised formats. Read the "What Is" and "How To" to work out how to make them.

X/S/VCD are non-standard or non-compliant versions of the above. They are not formats.

If you've never made a video disc before, you should stick to standard VCDs or SVCDs first. Then experiment with non-standard versions if you want to tweak your discs.

Regards.

[Chakotay2]

I am sorry. I am new. Why would you want to go non-standard? What is the advantage? That is the point I am missing... What is best and how do I get it? That is what I am after.

[Chakotay2]

Also, I have created many VCD's and SVCD's... I am just trying to get them to be higher quality... closer to DVD's w/o spending $$$$ for a DVD burner.

[vitualis]

"Why would you go non-standard"

The answer to this is already in this thread. If you use a bitrate above the maximum allowed or use a higher, non-standard framesize, you can get better quality.

The trade-off is that your disc is no longer compliant and may not work.

Regards.

[siaododo]

The reason you want to go non-standard is that you want higher video/audio quality, OR you want to fit more minutes to a CD by lowering the quality, it goes either way. I, for example, would usually burn only 60 minutes to a 700 mb CDR, even though I can put 80 minutes on a standard compliant VCD. The reason for this is that I will get better video quality by doing so.

sometimes I may have a video which is 90 minutes, I may lower the video & audio qualities to a level that I can live with, so I may put the entire video on 1 single CDR.

So it is pretty much subjective on how high a quality you want to make your VCD. Basically, a rule of thumb for me, if the video bit rate is less than 2000 bps, it doesn't matter if I make a XVCD or SXVCD, because I couldn't tell the difference in quality. I would prefer making XVCD because it takes less time to encode and that it is more compatible than SXVCD. You see, I want to share my CD's with my friends, and it kind of suck that they cannot play the CD's because their player is not compatible.

[Chakotay2]

Okay, I don't mind going non-standard, given what you know about my DVD (in earlier post) what is the format I should put my movies in to get the closest to DVD as possible?

[KaBoNG]

Chak:

I have had good success with XVCD playing back on my Sony DVP-NS400D. In fact, I can't even play SVCD's or XSVCD's as they are not supported on this player (which I don't mind because of how well it handles XVCD's). BUT, I have pushed the bitrate up as high as 3250 (and possibly higher - just haven't tested higher yet) with *no* play back problems! At that point, using 720x480 (same as DVD) I am getting very close to DVD quality IMO. A 2500 bit rate also produces nice results which is what you are limited to on your Pioneer.

Filtering helps - for some reason the deinterlace filter can *really* help sometimes. I also find that CQ VRB is better than CBR. Motion Serach precsion "high quality" doesn't seem to make a big diff over "normal" and the latter is a lot faster to encode.

Hope this helps.

KaBoNG!

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: KaBoNG on 2002-01-05 16:12:17 ]</font>

[Chakotay2]

Okay. I have tried 2 pass variable bit rate out. I get lots of "strobe" action at the end of the movie. Can you expand on what settings you use?

[KaBoNG]

I don't use the 2 pass VBR method. I use CQ_VBR. Others have reported problems with the 2 pass method. In CQ_VBR, try setting the max at 2500 (the max your Pioneer will handle). I'm not entirely clear on the min. and quality settings though.

[Chakotay2]

What "quality" setting do you use?

[zafar]

With all this discussion, I have a question....

Could I make a VCD of 480 X 480 resolution? Would any XVCD player play it?

Also, what you seem to be saying is that resolution is less important if the bitrate is higher. So I could just encode a VCD at high bitrate and get SVCD quality or even higher bitrate and (theoretically at least) get the DVD quality?


Zafar

[djsqueak]

I actually I had a question on this one too, but i think I know the answer.. You'd want to go (X)SVCD for support of Chapters, Subtitles, and I think multiple audio tracks (maybe?) If anyone could clarify, it'd be appreciated. I know that VCD only does simple menuing but what are the advantages of SVCD over it?

Thanks

[Vejita-sama]

At the same bitrate and resolution MPEg1 and MPEG2 look the same. The advantage of MPEG2 over MPEG1 is that MPEG2 supports more features (eg. interlaced source, multiple audio tracks, multiple angles, selectable subtitles, etc.).

When it comes to menus MPEG1 and MPEG2 are the same (you can't make those fully interlactive DVD like menus for either VCD or SVCD).

Also, although SVCD supports selectable subtitles, most stand alone DVD players don't And the software you need to make them (I-author) is next to impossible to find and only sold in China. So most people make permanant subtitles.

VCD and SVCD don't support 'true chapters' like DVDs. But you can make entrypoints that work just like chapters. Either MPEG1 or MPEG2 can do this. Most people use VCDImager to do this (w/ either VCDEasy or TSCV as a GUI).

[Xesdeeni]

That's twice in this thread that you've said that MPEG1 and MPEG2 look the same at the same resolution and same bitrate. That is not true.

MPEG2 added pieces to the MPEG1 algorithm for more efficient compression (as well as interlace support, higher resolutions, and multiple data stream, among other things). That's why the MediaPlayer MPEG1 CODEC can't play MPEG2 files.

Also note that although the SVCD standard bitrate (2520Kbps) is roughly 2x the VCD standard (1150Kbps), the resolution of SVCD (480x480 = 230,400) is almost 3x that of VCD (352x480 = 84,480). That's because MPEG2 can provide better compression.

If you are seeing MPEG1 and MPEG2 streams that look the same at the same bit rate and resolution, then you should be using a different MPEG2 encoder that exploits the improvments made between MPEG1 and MPEG2.

Xesdeeni