Edt DV and leave as DV

[kman22]

I am looking to achieve something that seems relatively simple but I cannot seem to find the way to do it.
I capture my videos via WinDV. I capture them to raw DV format. I don't need to do any fancy editing... just cropping and seperating... and then I want to output it back to DV so I can convert to DVD at a later date. I cannot seem to find a tool for simple splitting and cropping and then let me put it back to DV. Can someone please help??

[Baldrick]

virtualdub, open the dv avi, select video->filter and null transform and select cropping.
select start and stop for cutting.
and select video->compression and select a dv codec.
remember that the dv avi must be 720x480 or 720x576 so you need to add a resize filter after cropping it.

[kman22]

Wouldn't I choose the first option in video compression?

[BJ_M]

you will have to install a dv codec - see tools at left

[BJ_M]

https://www.videohelp.com/tools?tool=Panasonic_DV_Codec

[kman22]

I capture raw dv from Windv. Isn't that uncompressed? I am certainly not disputing what you say... just clarifying... like I said... my goal is to simply split up and organize all of my videos in raw (uncompressed) DV and then convert them to DVD.

[BJ_M]

DV is not uncompressed , it is about a 5:1 compressed lossy format -- though very good

[edDV]

If this is a consumer DV camcorder, I'd like to add a warning here. The Panasonic DV codec clips highlights (levels 235-255). My experience with consumer camcorders is they use all the levels up to 255 for highlights even clipping at 255 and need analysis. Prosumer and Pro camcoders are better at reducing major excursions above digital 235. Cable boxes rarely have much above level 235.

https://forum.videohelp.com/viewtopic.php?t=298034

[kman22]

How come when I am cropping and/or previewing a video in virtual dub.... it has cross hatched lines in it? But the video didn't have those lines when I played it before....

[BJ_M]

those are interlacing and are normal

[jagabo]

just cropping and seperating

If by "cropping" you mean removing unwanted footage (not cutting away part of the video frame) use VirtualDub in Direct Stream Copy mode (audio and video). It will not decompress or recompress the video, just copy the selected parts from the source file to the output file. There will be no loss of video quality.

[kman22]

BJ_M These lines are normal? they appear when I play the video back after cutting.... how are these lines normal?

[BJ_M]

Interlace
Each frame of a video picture is scanned twice. Firstly, all the odd lines are broadcast, then all the even lines are broadcast. Each set of odd/even lines is known as a field. Two fields therefore make up a frame. The point of doing this is to reduce flicker, and not increase bandwidth.


your computer monitor only displays progressive , but your tv (unless some hd or edtv) displays interlaced and you would not see those lines ..

dont remove them from dv source

[drewzor]

deleted

[edDV]

I'm shocked about this panasonic dv! is it better to convert to huffyuv?

Better to keep the first generation DV as encoded in the camcorder. WinDv, etc. does this.

Good DV native editing programs* will only decompress when needed for filtering, effects or transitions and then only for the frames needed. That is the whole point of DV. Simple cuts editing maintains first generation quality.

If a DVD is the goal, then DV format to MPeg2 transcoding is required but up to that point, simple cuts editing maintains first generation.


*e.g. Avid, FCP, Premiere Pro, ULead and Vegas. Since Virtualdub is not DV native, it must decode to RGB and re-encode back to DV loosing a generation.

[jagabo]

I'm shocked about this panasonic dv!

It's not the codecs fault. It's the camcorders' fault for using levels obove 235 (100 IRE).

[daamon]

*e.g. Avid, FCP, Premiere Pro, ULead and Vegas.

When saving a project timeline to DV AVI, Premiere Pro uses the MS DV Codec - but only for filters, transitions, effects etc.

How does the MS codec rate? I've heard it's not so good. What realistic options are there for good quality DV that Premiere Pro (and others) can be made to use?

There's also some interesting reading on DV codec comparisons here:

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=5ae5118f5ac39d66e3d70394ba4ea554&threadid=33526

There's also a statement contrary to yours, edDV - that with the Panasonic DV Codec the luminance range is 0-255, though the evidence supplied isn't conclusive from what I can see - certainly not as conclusive as your screenshots actually showing the luminance levels.

[jagabo]

I've played around with DV codecs with Graphedit where you can take the raw output of the DV encoder (still in a YUV colorspace) and save it as a byte stream with the Dump filter. This has allowed me to look at the raw luminance values from a DV stream. The luminance problem isn't really in the DV codec, it's the conversion from YUV to RGB (or vice versa) where the problems occur.

Most YUV to RGB algorithms convert the YUV luminance range from 16 to 235 to RGB values from 0 to 255. Any luminance value below 16 becomes RGB 0. Any luminance value above 235 becomes 235. (Note that the same thing happens with MPEG when the YV12 data is converted to RGB.) Going the other way, converting from RGB to YUV the RGB 0-255 range becomes luminance values of 16 to 235.

If your video source is within spec there should be very little luminance below 16 or above 235. Just an occasional overshoot really. So the crushed blacks and whites when converting to RGB isn't a problem. The problem comes with DV camcorders where there is often a lot of picture information above luminance 235. All that white detail gets lost when it's converted to RGB.

[edDV]

*e.g. Avid, FCP, Premiere Pro, ULead and Vegas.

When saving a project timeline to DV AVI, Premiere Pro uses the MS DV Codec - but only for filters, transitions, effects etc.

How does the MS codec rate? I've heard it's not so good. What realistic options are there for good quality DV that Premiere Pro (and others) can be made to use?

There's also some interesting reading on DV codec comparisons here:

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=5ae5118f5ac39d66e3d70394ba4ea554&threadid=33526

There's also a statement contrary to yours, edDV - that with the Panasonic DV Codec the luminance range is 0-255, though the evidence supplied isn't conclusive from what I can see - certainly not as conclusive as your screenshots actually showing the luminance levels.

As far as the Panasonic codec, I showed my results with a Vegas to Virtualdub and back transfer that would happen if using a Virtualdub filter for example. In other words, the Panasonic codec uses 255 for white rather than 235 and zero for black vs. 16. This causes the 235-255 overshoot range to be sawed off. Consumer DV camcorders run heavy overshoots.

As far as I know Premiere Pro uses the Mainconcept DV codec same as Vegas.

[edDV]

...The problem comes with DV camcorders where there is often a lot of picture information above luminance 235. All that white detail gets lost when it's converted to RGB.

My findings are exactly that.

[edDV]

But I did find that an uncompressed transfer Vegas to Virtualdubmod and back was handled correctly.



Sending DV format to Virtualdubmod and back (using Panasonic DV codec) caused crushing at 235 and black lifting to 16.



See all the steps here
https://forum.videohelp.com/viewtopic.php?t=295422&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=60

[daamon]

As far as the Panasonic codec, I showed my results with a Vegas to Virtualdub and back transfer that would happen if using a Virtualdub filter for example. In other words, the Panasonic codec uses 255 for white rather than 235 and zero for black vs. 16. This causes the 235-255 overshoot range to be sawed off. Consumer DV camcorders run heavy overshoots.

Ah - I see, so the Panasonic DV Codec by itself runs 0 - 255. It's some applications that do the "sawing off".

As far as I know Premiere Pro uses the Mainconcept DV codec same as Vegas.

Do you concur with the comments in the link I gave above about the MainConcept DV Codec?

If so, can Premiere Pro (I've got 1.5) be made to use a different codec, and which one would be better to pick? My DV projects are typically:

1) Cam to DV AVI through WinDV
2) Edit in Premiere Pro 1.5 - transitions, effects etc.
3) Output to DV AVI file.
4) Encode to MPEG2 for DVD using Canopus Procoder

I don't frameserve as I've plenty of disk space and find saving then encoding to be quicker - especially as it allows me to then rack up a few files to encode in Canopus Procoder and leave it overnight.

Thanks edDV. P.S. Any thoughts on that other thread of mine re GIGO?

[edDV]

I haven't evaluated DV codecs side by side like that. I see little difference in the DV Codec implementations in Premiere Pro and Vegas. Both seem fine to me but I'm mostly using DV camcorder original material or ADVC transfers from reasonable quality sources. I'm not doing much from VHS.

Next time I do something from Hi8, I'll see if there is any tendency to oversharpness with noisy sources. If there, it would show up with a cut from input DV to a 1X size effects shot using the same source. I don't recall that being a problem. This used to be a big issue with early hardware digital effects devices like the Ampex ADO. You couldn't cut to them.

I don't notice much difference between analog captures from the ADVC vs Sony DV camcorder passthrough assuming similar levels. Since doing the test above, I've been decompressing DV in Vegas with the mainconcept DV codec rather than in Virtualdub with the Panasonic. I think the results look cleaner even over the 16-235 range. In the link above, you can see the Mainconcept DV waveform looks much cleaner than the Panasonic.

I'll reproduce it here so you can see the difference. This was the Tiff slide encoded to DV with the Mainconcept DV codec. Then it was decompressed, sent to Vitualdubmod and copied back uncompressed and then encoded back to DV. The Panasonic waveform above resulted from a DV to uncompressed RGB to DV pass through Virtualdubmod.



Correction: Vegas was using the proprietary "Sony DV Codec"

[daamon]

This is an interesting thread. Thank you edDV and all the others who have made it so.

[BJ_M]

Vegas does NOT use the main concept DV codec , never did .....

[kman22]

I used SmartDVDCreator to turn the DV I cut up into a DVD and the disc is not playable in my computer or DVD player.

[BJ_M]

i never heard of SmartDVDCreator -- but since you bought it (needlessly) , they say they offer 100% support lifetime ..

next time use convertXToDVD or super or Thefilmmachine or any number of other options

[edDV]

Vegas does NOT use the main concept DV codec , never did .....

Sorry I remembered that backwards. It is Premiere that uses the Mainconcept DV codec. Sony has a proprietary DV codec if the perferences are set correctly. The MS or other third party codecs can be set in the General Preferences.



The above statements refer to the Sony DV codec.


These links discuss the codecs but lack recent comparisons.
http://www.adamwilt.com/DV-FAQ-tech.html
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=58110
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/archive/index.php/t-15663.html


My goal for the above was to find out why my Vegas file transfers to/from Virtualdubmod were levels corrupted and suspicion focused on the Panasonic DV codec since the uncompressed transfer worked fine. I was just trying to fix that problem, not attempting to compare other codec performance.

[jagabo]

My goal for the above was to find out why my Vegas file transfers to/from Virtualdubmod were levels corrupted

I think you'll find the levels are fine if you use VirtualDubMod in Fast Recompress mode (where it leaves the video as YUV). Of course, you can't do anything but recompress in that mode.

[edDV]

Good to know.