HDTV Fullscreen Question

[JohnnyVic]

Went to a brand new The Source by Circuit City store today. They had some Plasma, LCD etc 16:9 HDTV screens showing the following digital cable channels:

TSN HD
CBC HD
PBS HD

They were using a Motorola digital TV receiver connected to Shaw our local cable provider. The 3 outputs of the Motorola (composite, svhs and component I think) were hooked up to 3 wide screen displays. So they all showed exactly the same thing.

All the screens/channels filled the screen from side to side but had a black bar along the top and bottom.

The sales guy said you would never use the full 16:9 screen unless you zoomed the picture vertically to distort it.

To me the picture looked shorted than I should have (squashed vertically). I asked him to get the picture full screen like I thought it should have been and he went though all the menus with no luck.

He said it couldn't be done. I said why would I pay for a large screen that never used the top and bottom part.

So my questions are: Does this sales guy know what he is talking about? If I went back there is there something simple you could do with the remote to fix this?

=============
My last trip to the Sony store the sales guy told me that 720 and 1080 had nothing to do with HDTV and they were terms used with regular old 4:3 TV. So, needless to say my confidence in these sales guys is pretty low.

[JohnnyVic]

PS. In the menus all the screens were set to 16:9

[jagabo]

Most movies are wider than 16:9 so there will be black bars at the top and bottom of 16:9 TVs. Many DVD players have a zoom feature that will elimiate them but then cut off the edges of the picture.

[festmaster]

To answer to the most important question, those guys at the store don't know what they are talking about. It also sounds like they haven't set their equipment up properly, either. You stated that they were sending the signal from the cable box to the TV's by s-video and composite outputs. You can't send HD signals that way. I think what is happening is that they are obtaining the HD feed in 16:9 but outputing it as 4:3. They then set the TV screen to 16:9 which stretches the screen and distorts it.

Simply put, shop someplace else.

[JohnnyVic]

Most movies are wider than 16:9 so there will be black bars at the top and bottom of 16:9 TVs. Many DVD players have a zoom feature that will elimiate them but then cut off the edges of the picture.

I realize this but the point was it was standard HD TV broadcast which should usually be 16:9. Plus it was 3 different channels so there was no mistake there.

I think what is happening is that they are obtaining the HD feed in 16:9 but outputing it as 4:3. They then set the TV screen to 16:9 which stretches the screen and distorts it.

Then it would be enormously stretched and probably no black bars on the top/bottom and that would have been obvious. To me it looked just a little squashed.

So I take it normal HDTV, for example ESPN HD in the US would fill a 16:9 screen.

[JohnnyVic]

Whoops, I think I know what you are saying...

Because all three outputs are in use, the Motorola senses this and puts the 16:9 signal into letterbox format for 4:3 and sends this to all outputs - even the valid HD output. Then all 3 screens magnify that letterbox image to fit the 16:9 screen which is why it looks stretched and has the black bars.

[manono]

Yeah, it's definitely outputting 4:3 which the TV sets are then stretching to fill the screen right to left. You said the salesman fooled with the menus, but you didn't say if it was the STB, the TV, or both menus he was checking. Either the Motorola was set for 4:3 or, as festmaster speculated, because all 3 outputs were in use, the Motorola automatically output 4:3. The salesman was an idiot, but that doesn't necessarily mean you shouldn't buy the TVs from them, as long as you know how to set it up correctly yourself. You might go back and ask him to unplug the composite and s-video outputs and check to see that the Motorola is set to output 16:9. If nothing else, you might teach the salesman a thing or 2.

I saw something similar at Wal-Mart recently. They had a 16:9 DVD playing to both the 4:3 TVs and the widescreen TVs. The 4:3 TVs looked fine, but the 16:9 TV sets played the movie exactly the same way, squashed vertically. The DVD player was set to output 4:3, and when I mentioned it to a sales clerk, she said it was set up professionally and had to be right.

[JohnnyVic]

They are using the Motorola DCT 6412.

Standard TV Outputs:
- Video
- S-Video

HDTV Outputs:
- DVI
- Component
- IEEE 1394

So it should be able to handle 2 HDTV signals.

Apparently if you turn the Motorola off and then use the menu buttons you get a different menu where you can choose:

TV Type (Aspect Ratio)
-16x9 (correct setting)
-4x3 Letterbox (for regular TVs) <-- this might be the culprit
-4x3 Pan/Scan (for regular TVs)

DVI/Component Output
-1080i (default)
-720p
-480p
-480i

4:3 Override (for STD TV broadcasts)
-Off (correct)
-480i
-480p
-Stretch

So I think I know two of the correct settings but what should the middle setting be. Most Plasma/LCD are 720 displays so shouldn't that go to 720? What would you see if you switched between 1080i and 720p?

[manono]

So I think I know two of the correct settings but what should the middle setting be. Most Plasma/LCD are 720 displays so shouldn't that go to 720?

Most plasmas and LCDs are 768p, I believe. The idea is to get 1:1 pixel mapping. If the native resolution is 720p or 1080i, then ordinarily you'd use those. But not always. Sometimes you just have to try them all and use the one that looks best. If the TV is 768p, then sometimes 480p looks better, and sometimes 720p looks better. And use the DVI output if at all possible. It may mean having to buy a DVI->HDMI cable, since most newer HDTVs now come with HDMI inputs.

[edDV]

They are using the Motorola DCT 6412.

OK, I have one of those so here is what is going on.

First, are you sure they have HDTV service and that the broadcasts are in HD? During the day many HD channels alternate between true HD (usually in the evening), upscaled 16:9 480i widescreen (much of PBS HD), upscaled 480i movies (letterboxed inside 16:9) and upscaled 4:3 480i (masked sides).

Assuming the program is 16:9 HDTV, if they are connecting with composite, S-Video or YPbPr in 480i mode, then the 16:9 picture will be letterboxed inside a 480i frame.

The only ways to get HDTV out of the 6412 is by HDMI or YPbPr with 16:9 1080i or 16:9 720p settings.

Most cable HD channels and rebroadcast local HD channels are native 1080i/29.97. The exceptions are ESPN-HD and the FOX and ABC locals which are 720p/58.94.

Some HDTV sets are natively interlace (e.g. CRT, DLP) and will work best from 1080i output from the 6412. 720p channels will be converted to 1080i inside the 6412. The TV will then internally process the 1080i input to its native display.

Other HDTV sets are natively progressive (e.g. LCD, some front projectors, 1080p DLP ...) but will accept 1080i or 720p inputs. If such a set takes the 1080i output from the 6412, it will internally deinterlace and scale to its native resolution (e.g. 1366x768). The deinterlacer will try to detect telecine and apply IVTC if the source is film. If the source is pure interlace, it will typically apply motion adaptive bob and weave. 720p channels are converted to 1080i inside the 6412 so they are treated as if they were interlaced by the HDTV. The advantages of 720p are lost.

If the progressive HDTV set is given the 1280x720p output from the 6412, then all channels are accepted as progressive and simply scaled to the native resolution (e.g. 1366x768). 1080i channels are deinterlaced and scaled to 1280x720 inside the 6412.

Therefore, in 720p out mode, 720p sources are presented optimally. 1080i quality is determined inside the 6412. In 1080i out mode, 1080i quality is determined by the deinterlacer in the TV and the progressive advantages of 720p channels are lost.

Ideally a cable box would offer 1080i or 720p to match the channel format, but the Motorola and Scientific Atlanta boxes force you to output all 1080i or all 720p.

Hope this helps.

[JohnnyVic]

Yes it was definitely widescreen (olympic hockey).

It was pretty obvious to me what the problem was. The guy switched the plasma screen to 4:3 mode and the picture was perfect, by that I mean no squashing (letterbox 4:3). But obviously the sides of the screen were not used.

When he went back to 16:9 the black bars at the top and bottom stayed the same height - so the picture was just stretched sideways. Even when I pointed that out to the guy he still wasn't convinced. He said it did that from the day they set it up.

[TooLFooL]

the average retail outlets have NO CLUE how to set-up and use equipment, and the salespeople have no clue what they are even looking at. if it sounds foolish, DONT listen to them! they are only there to smile & sell...

[gshelley61]

NEVER listen to the salespeople at the big box stores. 99% are youngsters hired to be nice and complete transactions... but they do not have a clue about any of this stuff. Yes, you would think that these stores would want their products properly set up and displayed in order to enhance sales, but the sad truth is most people don't know the difference anyway. They just want a big screen TV. Something like 50%-60% of the HDTV sets in homes across North America right now are not actually receiving or displaying HD content - and the folks who own these sets don't even realize it. They think they've got HD because they bought an HDTV. Many people are simply unaware that they need cable/satellite HD boxes and service (or over-the-air digital broadcast reception) in order to get HD channels.

Do your own research and have a very good idea of what you want before you go out to buy.

BTW, no offense to anyone who works at BB, CC, etc.

[JohnnyVic]

Thanks for the replies folks. I'll let you know what comes of this...

To "offline": hijacking a thread is not a good way to debate someone's signature. Could you guys edit/delete that stuff out please.

Sorry for hijacking your thread.
/ Moderator Offline

[JohnnyVic]

Found the problem:

The Motorola TV Type was set to 4:3 Letterbox (see my note in red above)

Thanks for all the input...