Studio DVDs: 2 hours or more of PERFECT QUALITY...How?

[Bobbo01]

I'm a newbie here, i've been tooling with mpeg-2 conversion for some time now.

I am after TOP quality, no matter what it takes...if quality is lost, then the encoding was unsuccesful to me.

Cinema Craft SP produces nearly flawless quality, perhaps as good as professional dvds....I have achieved that....but only at 9.8 mbps....the dvd maximum....which unfortunately only gives about 1 hour.

It frustrates me when i think about real commercial dvds, which have 2 hours of content on a single 4.7 disc...with almost perfect quality...the maximum bitrate CAN ONLY BE AS HIGH as 4.5 mpbs.... thats half of 9.8, but still almost perfect quality.

How is this done? Are the pro commercial studio encoders that much better than what we have to work with?




--i should probably add, that I'm encoding my own home movies....filmed with video-8, hi-8 and vhs camera sources..... perhaps there is a significant quality loss in professional film to the dvd transfer...we just never see it, because the highest quality version of a studio film we see is what's on the dvd they give us.

[BJ_M]

you answered your own question

I'm encoding my own home movies....filmed with video-8, hi-8 and vhs camera sources...

huge diff compared to 'studio' produced dvds which use film (or sometimes HD) as the source ...

film is effectively 4k - 8k resolution , shot w/ 100,000$+ setups and transfered with high quality set-ups
.. you are not going to get a vhs tape or hi8 tape to look as good

[whitejremiah]

yep....the best you can hope for is something like what's seen on those 1 dollar dvd's you see at wal-mart....maybe slightly better quality than that, but as the old saying goes, junk in, junk out.........you can only clean up a video so far before it will start actually deteriorating the video quality.......

[Bobbo01]

you answered your own question

I'm encoding my own home movies....filmed with video-8, hi-8 and vhs camera sources...

huge diff compared to 'studio' produced dvds which use film (or sometimes HD) as the source ...

film is effectively 4k - 8k resolution , shot w/ 100,000$+ setups and transfered with high quality set-ups
.. you are not going to get a vhs tape or hi8 tape to look as good

Yes but let me clear something up. I am trying to get my video to look as good as its SOURCE. I obviously understand it can't look better than what the source is

[BJ_M]

you spent 2000$ on an encoder ...

spend that amount on a HDV camera and you will get a little closer quality wise ...

bad quality sources just dont encode very well ... basically every frame just has to much noise is a simple answer

noise reduction is a key element here - of course that also lowers detail in a no win situation

[ZippyP.]

Shoot with a tripod to limit camera shake, motion eats up bitrate.

[LloydAZ]

Cinema Craft SP produces nearly flawless quality, perhaps as good as professional dvds....I have achieved that....but only at 9.8 mbps....the dvd maximum....which unfortunately only gives about 1 hour.

Check the bitrate calculator available in the tools section.


(Using VidoeCalc 1.1) To encode at 9768 kbps, you can fit 1 hour of video onto a 4.7 GB disc if you have a single audio stream encoded at 32 kbps. If you want to get 2 hours of video, it would reqire a bitrate of 5065 kbps with a single audio stream at 32 kbps.

To encode 2 hours of video on a Dual-Layer disc, you can encode the video at 9229 kbps with a single audio stream at 32 kbps.

Of course, you wouldn't want your audio quality to be that extremely low for either one. If you raise the bitrate of your audio, you'll have to lower the bitrate of the video. This is just a law of mathematics, you're dealing with a finite amount of space.

The studios that produce DVD's don't usually produce single-layer discs. If you see one, it's either a really low bitrate such as the el-cheapo discs you find in the dollar bin at Walmart, or it's a 2-sided disc (I've got at least one like this in my collection).

A simple test will prove this.

Put a DVD in your DVD drive.
Right click on the drive letter in Windows Explorer DVD, select properties.

It will probably read somewhere around 6-9 GB.

"Mission to Mars" with all the goodies still on the disc (113 minutes long) is 7.16 GB. Opening the VOB file in DGIndex shows that the movie has an average bitrate of approximately 4000 kbps (it also has 4 audio streams at 384, 384, 384, and 192 kbps.)

If the studios could save a 2-hour movie on a 4.7 GB disc with a bitrate of 9800 kbps and multiple audio selections at bitrates of 384 kbps, we wouldn't need to use programs such as DVDShrink to back up our movies.

[Bobbo01]

I think it's a combination of several things... Shaky motion scenes and bad source material....hey at least it works at 9.8 mpbs

That is interesting though, that Mission to Mars is only encoded at 4000 kpbs.... I only saw the VHS release...but i assume that the dvd is, like every other commercial dvd, very good quality.

[edDV]

I was just typing that but LloydAZ beat me to it.

If you are happy with high bitrate CBR, use a two layer disc like they do and you have your two hours.

But what they do goes much further. They shoot in much higher quality with perfect lighting. Almost nothing is hand held. What is is on a steadycam or is done by a pro that knows how to hold a camera steady.

They shoot with MPeg encoding in mind. Pans or zooms are done on axis and at controlled rates.

After transfer, individual scenes are altered for better encoding. Step through an action scene frame by frame and you will see where detail has been removed to keep bitrate from spiking.

The encoders and equipment are pro, but so are their editors, effects artists and DVD authoring experts.

The best thing you can do is upgrade your camera to at least MiniDV and learn lighting and camera technique.

[julitomg]

Bobbo1 correct me if I´m wrong; you do want to see your home movies at THEIR maximum quality, don´t you?, the closest possible to the original video, in other words, losing as little as possible of their original quality. Ok, if I did´t misread your posts, I´d start by saying that every once in a while someone asks aproximately the same question and, most times, somebody will jump at them with "if you want better quality, buy high end equpiment"-replies...hardly of much help in many cases(for a number of reasons)

Bobbo1 wrote:

Yes but let me clear something up. I am trying to get my video to look as good as its SOURCE. I obviously understand it can't look better than what the source is

Now, aside from tips on how to improve his shooting technique to achieve better results, we could also say that indeed commercial DVDs are made (shot, edited, encoded, etc..)in a different way than most of us can usually achieve or afford, yes; they have much more "quality"(resolution, image proccesing tools,etc..)to begin with, and therefore will lose less in the entire process.
But more accordingly to Bobbo1´s post would be some answers related to "how to preserve the quality of a less than perfect source" or something like that, maybe tips regarding his encoder(CCE)´s settings to optimize performance given his format/type of shooting/capture method considering his "target" bitrate or ideas to improve his footage once it´s in his PC (filters, proc amp like controls, etc...) in order to make it more mpeg/DVD-friendly at the target bitrate.
I myself don´t use CCE but I supose there are quite a few guides about it around here, you can look them up in the proper section of the site.

[edDV]

Bobbo1 correct me if I´m wrong; you do want to see your home movies at THEIR maximum quality, don´t you?, the closest possible to the original video, in other words, losing as little as possible of their original quality. Ok, if I did´t misread your posts, I´d start by saying that every once in a while someone asks aproximately the same question and, most times, somebody will jump at them with "if you want better quality, buy high end equpiment"-replies...hardly of much help in many cases(for a number of reasons)

Bobbo1 wrote:

Yes but let me clear something up. I am trying to get my video to look as good as its SOURCE. I obviously understand it can't look better than what the source is

Now, aside from tips on how to improve his shooting technique to achieve better results, we could also say that indeed commercial DVDs are made (shot, edited, encoded, etc..)in a different way than most of us can usually achieve or afford, yes; they have much more "quality"(resolution, image proccesing tools,etc..)to begin with, and therefore will lose less in the entire process.
But more accordingly to Bobbo1´s post would be some answers related to "how to preserve the quality of a less than perfect source" or something like that, maybe tips regarding his encoder(CCE)´s settings to optimize performance given his format/type of shooting/capture method considering his "target" bitrate or ideas to improve his footage once it´s in his PC (filters, proc amp like controls, etc...) in order to make it more mpeg/DVD-friendly at the target bitrate.
I myself don´t use CCE but I supose there are quite a few guides about it around here, you can look them up in the proper section of the site.

All that was answered. Use maximum bitrate CBR in two layers to achieve the goal of 2 hours. The reasons were also explained why this is needed for shakey noisy analog format camcorder recordings.

The rest of the comments were in response to the second half of his question.

Bobbo1 wrote:
"It frustrates me when i think about real commercial dvds, which have 2 hours of content on a single 4.7 disc...with almost perfect quality...the maximum bitrate CAN ONLY BE AS HIGH as 4.5 mpbs.... thats half of 9.8, but still almost perfect quality.

How is this done? Are the pro commercial studio encoders that much better than what we have to work with? "

[greymalkin]

you spent 2000$ on an encoder ...

love it!

[whitejremiah]

i'm glad i didnt spend that much myself, i just ran with the standard version.............50 or 60 bux...whatever it was.........i decided to keep the other 1950 or so and buy myself...ummm..............lunch at mcdonalds...yea, thats it....

[manono]

...the maximum bitrate CAN ONLY BE AS HIGH as 4.5 mpbs

Nonsense. Use VBR encoding. The average bitrate may be 4.5 Mbps, but the max video bitrate can be up to 9.8 Mbps, and along with the audio and overhead (and subs, if any), can be up to 10.08 Mbps. Doing that might save you from macroblocking during complex scenes. If you're comparing your stuff to retail DVDs, no good ones use CBR encoding. But as said, your source material can't even be mentioned in the same breath as what the studios use.

[Bobbo01]

(first let me say, I see a few people trying to bash me for the expensive purchase. I am fully aware of what I did. While the filesize CCE produces may not be what I want, the quality level IS....which makes it VERY worth it for me. I am here to seek help, not to be insulted, so please refrain from bashing me. Thank you)

well i think i've heard what i need to hear. Thank you guys for all your input, its helping...I've been doing this for sometime now, completely on my own....i was bound to make errors

I figured the studios were using VBR... It would make logical sense.

I've tried 3 pass vbr at 7000 average, 2000 min and 9800 max...and after playing it back numerous times, I could spot *small* macroblocks in high motion scenes, that were not present at cbr9800. I admit, they were very small, and you'd have to be looking hard for them...but it bothered me that they were there....filesize was smaller though.

Anyway, lets shift gears here for a second. Up until about 1 week ago, i was using TMPGENC (hence the need for CCE help). I loved the CQ (Constant Quality) mode. Perfect quality was always there, and a very low bitrate was used for shots with low or no motion (black screens, still shots..etc), often it dropped the filesize as much as 200 mb. I miss CQ in CCE. Is there anyway to alter VBR mode to function as CQ?

Thanks
-Bob

[manono]

Hi-

Is there anyway to alter VBR mode to function as CQ?

Yes, set it up for 1-pass VBR, and you'll then be able to specify a max and min bitrate to be used, along with the Q you want to use. Read the manual for more information.

If you want to use 1-pass CQ along with a fixed final size, then you might be interested in AutoQ2:

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=96420