DV to MPG2 Major Problems (Mice Teeth Effect)

[k_@yne]

I've been making (Thanks to the Info on this site) VCDs and SVCD's for about two years now - I always used TMPGEnc Plus to do all of the encoding and such. Three Months ago I took the plunge and bought a HPDVD640 Burner and a Sony MiniDV Handycam Model DCR-HC21. Started shooting movies with it straight away.
I used WinDV to transfer my daughter's first B'day party using the built in Microsoft DV Codec. It looked really good during the WinDV tranfer. I then followed the TMPGEnc Guide for high quality DVD which can be found here to encode the AVI DV type 2 to an MPEG2 compliant File.
Mice Teeth? I think it's called? That's what I got from TMPGEnc. An MPG that is extremely toothy. I tried re-encoding with the Default DVD templates that come with TMPGEnc in addition to changing the Video source from Interlaced to Deinterlaced - Swapping the Field order from B to A, Everything I can think of - I still get teeth in all resulting movies. One thing to note is that any MPG2 I make is unplayable in PowerDVD (Green black and pink Distorted lines) Win DVD plays it ok but with stutters and VLC plays it best but the teeth are still there. Gspot also reports that there is no suitable MPG2 decoder available (I have both WinDVD and PowerDVD installed both seperatley and together)
I've read all I can about DV and interlacing and as far as I can tell DV is recorded Interlaced - So my settings should be Interlaced in Source Video. I've also read that the field order should be B > A (Last > First). It's frustrating because I seem to be doing everything right but getting bad results, I can't think of anything to correct. I've just installed Panasonic DV codec and am about to try and capture the footage again, I've also disabled Microsoft's DV Codec in the hopes that Win DV with use the Panasonic Codec. Is this due to corrupted codecs? Does TMPGEnc use it's own MPG encoder? Or is it because Computer Monitors play Video Progressivley that The Serrations are appearing in Media Player? Will this problem go away if I carry on and Burn to DVD?

Please Please any insight would be appreciated as I'm at my wits end!
Thank You for reading such a long post -

PS : The DV records in NTSC 29.97 Frames
Computer Specs :
Intel Proccessor 1 Ghz
512 MB SDRAM
Onboard Graphics/Sound

[edDV]

Would you post a frame illustrating the problem?

[jtoolman2000]

It definitely sounds like an interlacing problem. Also remembr you will need author the MPGs to the DVD format. You might find that it plays perfectly well on the TV

[edDV]

I was assuming he had authored a DVD and was seeing this on the DVD played to the TV.

[k_@yne]

Thanks for the speedy respones - Much appreciated.

To clarify to DVed, No. This isn't a problem that's occuring on a DVD Disc or on a TV screen. I was just in the proccess of making a DVD compliant MPG2 file. It is this file that seems to have all the mice teeth while being viewed on my Computer Monitor. I didn't see a need to burn what I thought was a duff encoding to DVD.

Here are the two screenshots.

First : MPG2 Version (Encoded With TMPGEnc Plus)

http://img68.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mpg22dw.jpg


Second : DV Version (Captured With Panasonic DV Codec)

http://img342.imageshack.us/my.php?image=panasonicdv4dc.jpg

Thanks again for the replies ....

[k_@yne]

Sorry I meant edDV not DVed in my last post.

[edDV]

Thanks for the speedy respones - Much appreciated.

To clarify to DVed, No. This isn't a problem that's occuring on a DVD Disc or on a TV screen. I was just in the proccess of making a DVD compliant MPG2 file. It is this file that seems to have all the mice teeth while being viewed on my Computer Monitor. I didn't see a need to burn what I thought was a duff encoding to DVD.

Here are the two screenshots.

First : MPG2 Version (Encoded With TMPGEnc Plus)

http://img68.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mpg22dw.jpg


Second : DV Version (Captured With Panasonic DV Codec)

http://img342.imageshack.us/my.php?image=panasonicdv4dc.jpg

Thanks again for the replies ....

That is how interlaced material looks on a progressive computer monitor*. It won't be a problem when played from a DVD to a interlace TV. If your TV is progressive (e.g. plasma or LCD), the TV will deinterlace the video in hardware for proper display.

PowerDVD will attempt to deinterlace on the fly but DV format decode is very compute intensive so PowerDVD results may vary by the CPU speed of your computer. PowerDVD will do a better job with the encoded MPeg2.

* You are viewing two fields offset in time by 1/60 sec. If any motion occurs during that 1/60 sec you will see odd vs even line motion split.

[k_@yne]

Thank you for confirming this for me. I was just about to give up on all this and sell the Camera. You've been a great help.
Being a royal pain the behind here but how comes Downloaded TV shows Recorded from TV work on a Computer Monitor even though they are interlaced. Do they get deinterlaced during encoding? Just wondering incase I ever want to transfer footage from Cam to use as AVI's on PC instead of burning to DVD.

Thank you once again for your help.

[edDV]

Thank you for confirming this for me. I was just about to give up on all this and sell the Camera. You've been a great help.
Being a royal pain the behind here but how comes Downloaded TV shows Recorded from TV work on a Computer Monitor even though they are interlaced. Do they get deinterlaced during encoding? Just wondering incase I ever want to transfer footage from Cam to use as AVI's on PC instead of burning to DVD.

Thank you once again for your help.

Typically, highly compressed video is deinterlaced as part of the the compression process(e.g. divx, wmv). The deinterlace process and compression lower quality and also reduce motion resolution from 60fps to 30fps. The benefit is a small file for transfer and a deinterlaced image for computer display.

However, compressed video will look much worse on a TV. Keep the DV original tapes of those baby movies. Future encoders will make those original tapes look much better on future HDTV sets.

[k_@yne]

Thank You very much -
You're help has been very insightful.

[edDV]

Thank You very much -
You're help has been very insightful.

Remember that that kid will be watching these tapes in his future walk in 3D holographic theater room.

[shai_allon]

I have a quiestion about this:
I have a Sony DV camera, which I received just recently, and this type of field is somewhat new to me.
When I'm encoding the movie from the camera to an AVI movie (using adobe premiere), I get the same distortion.

You're saying that it I convert the AVI to DVD, and displaying it on a TV, I won't see this distortion?

Thanks

[junkmalle]

When I'm encoding the movie from the camera to an AVI movie (using adobe premiere), I get the same distortion.

You're saying that it I convert the AVI to DVD, and displaying it on a TV, I won't see this distortion?

Here's what you need to understand:

An interlaced video camera takes a picture every 1/60 of a second. First it takes one picture and sends half of it to the TV. That half picture consists of every other horizontal scanline of the image -- called a field. 1/60 of a second later it takes another picture. It then sends half of that picture to the TV -- but this time it's the scanlines that were missing from the first picture. Anything that moved during that 1/60 second will be in a different location. You don't see interlace comb artifacts on the TV because you only see one of those half pictures at a time. Every 1/60th second you see a new half picture -- the previous half picture has faded away.

When a computer or DV camcorder records those half pictures it combines pairs of them into full frames. So each frame of DV contains two half pictures. When you see those frames on a computer monitor you both fields at the same time. You will see interlace comb lines whenever anything moved during that 1/60 second interval -- unless the software you are using is hiding them from you (via some form of deinterlacing).

When you create a DVD compatibe MPEG 2 file from a DV source you should keep both half pictures. When your DVD player plays them it will separate the two fields and display them one at a time on your TV (exactly the way your video camera captured them) and then move on to the next pair.

Just be sure your software identifies the field order correctly. Since video is simply alternating top (the field containing scanlines 1,3,5...479) and bottom (scanlines 2,4,6...480) fields they can be captured starting with a top field and then adding the next bottom field to create a full frame, or starting with a bottom then adding a top. If you get the field order wrong the pairs of fields will playback in the wrong temporal order -- resulting in fast-jerky movements.

[shai_allon]

Thanks

[Razzle]

Wow - What a comprehensive reply. Thanx so much. I came because of exactly the same question. Thanx heaps.