Looking for best bang-for-buck camcorder

[anitract]

Background
I think this is my first post to the DV forum. Never thought I'd be posting here, as all of my needs thus far have been met w/ mpeg2 caps via ATI AIW. Eh, anyway, so a funny thing entered my head the other day: I NEED a video camera of my own. So, being the guy that I am I've spent almost 2 full days reading reviews and researching camcorders. I have only never dealt with DV, and am CONFUSED as heck.

I have been salivating over the Panasonic PV-GS400, but...I don't know if I am willing to spend that much.

My Needs
1. Bang-for-buck ($800 prefered max, but if needed for quality boost, will consider going higher...if I can go cheaper - by all means!)
2. Video quality
3. Usability - Battery life, durability, & smallish size (I plan on using it quite a bit for home videos, vacations, & other personal things - nothing more)

Some Questions
0. Any recommendations??

1. Will High Def. cameras become affordable for average consumers any time soon? I ask because I do not want to "waste" my money if something better is just around the corner.

2. DV. I am very confused. Is it essentially "1s and 0s" stored on analog tape, or is it actually storing in analog much like vhs or 8mm?

3. Is the quality much better than 8mm?

4. Is MiniDV any better than Digital8?

__
Ok, that should do it for now. I appreciate the responses.

[davideck]

0. Any recommendations??

My advice would be to pay particular attention to the quality of the optics/camera.

I replaced my SVHS Camcorder several years ago with a higher end JVC Mini-DV. It is smaller, very convenient and makes great pictures in good light conditions. But there are several things that I do not like about it...

1) Auto Focus - it is CONSTANTLY refocusing, back and forth, back and forth. Very annoying. I often go into manual.

2) Low Light Performance - Indoor / Low Light performance is not nearly as good as my old SVHS unit. This is one of those things that's hard to test in a brightly lit store.

3) White Balance - The Auto White Balance is pretty useless. I have gotten into the habit of manually selecting the White Balance before every shot.

2. DV. I am very confused. Is it essentially "1s and 0s" stored on analog tape

Yep

3. Is the quality much better than 8mm?
4. Is MiniDV any better than Digital8?

I think it is dependent upon the quality of the camera.

[wwjd]

I just recently went through what you describe here. I decided on the PV GS250. I also struggled with whether to purchase the GS400 or go HD. In the end I decided that the GS250 was the upper limit for $ investment. HD in my mind is still a bit too cutting edge and the GS400 was still just too far out of my price range.

I use my camera mostly for home video stuff - softball games, dance competitions, birthdays and so on.

Your Questions:

1. No comment except that with electronics something new is ALWAYS around the corner.
2. I am no expert but I believe it is digital, 0 and 1's that is stored on the miniDV tape.
3. The specs say it is better and my eyes and the eyes of my family say that the video shot with the PV GS250 camcorder is much better than what was shot with our old 8mm. Crisper, sharper images, better focus, better image stabilization, better color. It is not night and day but the difference is not subjective either, it is real.
4. I do not know the answer to that. Seems like there is some debate. I knew I did not want DVD or hard drive and once I settled on the GS250 the difference between miniDV and Digital8 did not come into play.

I have thoroughly enjoyed my new camera. DV avi is what I prefer working with when it comes to video editing and so on. Just hook up the firewire and go!

I have not had any issues with battery life. I purchased a backup battery from a battery web site so I always have a charged backup. I also do not do a lot of video reviewing using the LCD.

The included software with the GS250 is actually pretty good for cutting and trimming your DV avi. You can also add some nice video effects. I did purchase a software app for custom displaying the time stamp in the finished video.

[anitract]

wwjd, funny that's almost the conclusion I am coming to w/ the GS250 being my upper limit.

A couple more ?s:

1. Since the digital is data does this mean that you can re-use DV tapes w/out effecting the picture quality? (Whereas, analog re-use degrades the tape w/ each recording.)

2. When transfering the DV to your PC, is there a highspeed mode, or do you just have to do it in real time?

[JohnP]

annitract,

Consider the cost of DV tapes (not much) v iirreplaceable footage, always best to keep the original DV sources (3 HD losses over the years has taught me that)

All the captures are transfer in real time.

I have a Panasonic (DS33B) now a bit old, but it has been to many tropical rainforest rivers with me and still works fine.

[anitract]

Yea, I would buy tapes, but just checking.

Anyone else? Is it stupid to buy an interlaced machine, when the trend for everything else is progressive?

[wwjd]

Your questions:

1. Since the digital is data does this mean that you can re-use DV tapes w/out effecting the picture quality? (Whereas, analog re-use degrades the tape w/ each recording.)

You should do a google on miniDV tapes to get a more complete answer. I learned the hard way from VHS not to record over family video in order to save a few bucks on VHS tapes. I plan on keeping the miniDV for archival purposes since this is the best source video. Also, and this is well documented on the web, DVD's are not the best media for archiving.

2. When transfering the DV to your PC, is there a highspeed mode, or do you just have to do it in real time?

The transfer is real time. I use WinDV(freeware) to do the transfer. 1hr of DV avi requires around 12.5GB of HDD space. Since I shoot 1-2hrs of video per month real time transfer is not an issue.

Once the DV avi is on my system. I cut/trim/edit the DV avi and then convert to compliant mpg2 using CCE Basic. Be sure to use a quality mpg encoder like CCE Basic, ProCoder or Mainconcept or TMPGenc. I then use TMPGenc DVD Author to author and DVD Decrypter to burn to DVD.

[anitract]

Thanks for all of the advice.

One last question (the most important one): how do I convince my g/f that I need a camcorder?

[ar7499]

I also have been planning to replace my camcorder. I bought into sony's micro-mv format a few years ago, and have been dissappointed with the format, and my wife hates the camera itself.

FYI, micromv, and I believe the dvd based cameras, record in mpeg2 format. As you know, this is not the best format for editing, and the higher compression results in lower quality output. That is why I want to get a minDV camera.

After using a camcorder for four years, here are the details I would say are most important.

Low Light quality. It was mentioned above, and it is worh repeating. I often am shooting indoors, and you can't make an infant wait for you to go around and turn on all the lights before they roll over or take their first step.

Sound quality. My camera has a small micrphone located right on top in the bacck. Great for capturing sneezes, coughs and laughs from the operator, but no so good for captuing someoen's first words. My camera has no facility to add an ext microphone, which some do. This is a solution, but I too am on a budget, and those can get pricey and add to the bulk and process of getting the camera rolling.

Ease of use. This is the issue for my wife. She finds the zoom, which is a very important feature to be difficult to use. I would suggest going to the big box with whoever is likely to use the camera, and have them try out the controls and the feel of the camera.

When I bought my first camera, I thought that size was the most important factor, and I bought the smallest camera possible. It is great to be able to put it in your pocket while you are our, but the trade-offs in quailty were not worth it. Now I will be spending all that money again.

oh well, good luck with your decision. I will be making the same decision soon. btw, have you checked out http://www.camcorderinfo.com/ ? it has pretty detailed reviews of all the current cameras.

ar

[anitract]

ar7499,

I think the hard part about all of this is knowing that we're on the verge of some big changes in the world of video. In the meantime though, what do yo do? I think I'll buy an upper-mid level DV camcorder like the GS250.

Camcorderinfo is a great site - I've been reading a lot of reviews.

[edDV]

Background

My Needs
1. Bang-for-buck ($800 prefered max, but if needed for quality boost, will consider going higher...if I can go cheaper - by all means!)
2. Video quality
3. Usability - Battery life, durability, & smallish size (I plan on using it quite a bit for home videos, vacations, & other personal things - nothing more)

Some Questions
0. Any recommendations??

1. Will High Def. cameras become affordable for average consumers any time soon? I ask because I do not want to "waste" my money if something better is just around the corner.

2. DV. I am very confused. Is it essentially "1s and 0s" stored on analog tape, or is it actually storing in analog much like vhs or 8mm?

3. Is the quality much better than 8mm?

4. Is MiniDV any better than Digital8?

__
Ok, that should do it for now. I appreciate the responses.

Just saw this so here are quick opinions, ask for clarification.

1. Any HD investment now would be considered a waste unless the need is specific.

2. DV is a true digital format that is stored and transferred in various ways most of which are analog (e.g. videotape, DVDR, hard disk, "digital" broadcasting over analog RF, Ethernet, flashram, etc).

3. Yes. Consumer analog is low rent. DV is true broadcast quality. I can go into as much detail as you want.

4. Both record the same DV signal (quality) to different analog tape formats. Except for some advanced camcorder features, they are identical.

wwjd, funny that's almost the conclusion I am coming to w/ the GS250 being my upper limit.

A couple more ?s:

1. Since the digital is data does this mean that you can re-use DV tapes w/out effecting the picture quality? (Whereas, analog re-use degrades the tape w/ each recording.)

2. When transfering the DV to your PC, is there a highspeed mode, or do you just have to do it in real time?

1. Since the data is digital and the tape codecs include error/dropout detection, you won't see a difference until noise floor or dropouts start to overwhelm error correction. This usually happens with dirty heads rather than than tape wearing out. Tape issues can be discussed further.

2. No highspeed mode. This is a hardware controlled stream issue. Transfer from the camcorder is a fixed stream, not a file. Pro recorders support fast hardware transfer but they also cost 10-40x more.


You are your own with the girlfriend/wife factor. Make a kitten or kids tape.

ar7499,

I think the hard part about all of this is knowing that we're on the verge of some big changes in the world of video. In the meantime though, what do yo do? I think I'll buy an upper-mid level DV camcorder like the GS250.

Camcorderinfo is a great site - I've been reading a lot of reviews.

I think today the optimal solution is DV. DV is a damn good standard and looks good on a HDTV. It comes down to price but at a minimum get a Digital8 or MiniDv format. From there the quality depends on the cam half of the camcorder. Prices go from $250 to $40k (DVCAM and DVCPro) and the main difference is the "cam".

Right now the GS-250 and GS-400 look like the best camcorder for money spent.

[anitract]

edDV,

Well that pretty much removes my doubts about the format itself. I guess, worst case, the camera becomes a little outdated in a couple of years. I don't even have an HD-TV yet, anyway.

I wish I could find a killer deal on the GS-400 from a reputable retailer though. Looking around it doesn't look like many camcorders have rebates either.

I guess, that leaves the g/f factor. Hmm...must think of my approach VERY carefully...she's been very patient with all of my AV gear thus far, but....

[PMorton]

As far as reusing tapes, I strongly discourage it. I recently did some video editing for my church. They had used this tape twice before, and there was some significant blockiness and garbled audio. Only a couple of seconds, and most of it I was able to edit out. But that was only because the subject fumbled his words at the time. (So I actually improved his presentation too, but that might not be your luck.)

[Steve Stepoway]

edDV,

I wish I could find a killer deal on the GS-400 from a reputable retailer though.

Your odds of that are about the same as finding a Ferrari at a government drug-seizure auction for $100. They don't exist, despite people saying they do.

I also looked seriously at the GS-400, and ended up with a GS-250. You won't see the difference between the images, and I didn't think the 400's advantages worth an extra $400 to $500. The 400 has slightly better audio controls, but you probably wouldn't make any use of it. They are the best SD you'll find under 2-grand. You won't find anything close to a GS-250 for the price.

[ar7499]

ar7499,

I think the hard part about all of this is knowing that we're on the verge of some big changes in the world of video. In the meantime though, what do yo do? I think I'll buy an upper-mid level DV camcorder like the GS250.

Camcorderinfo is a great site - I've been reading a lot of reviews.

I am not too worried about buying too soon. You will always feel like that whenever you buy an electronic product. Next year the thing you bought will be half the price, and the same money will buy you something twice as cool. That's what EBAY is for. Sell for a few bucks and trade up.

Besides, the next 'big thing' for home video will be HD, and I just read an article this morning pointing out how there is no good software to edit it well, and you need a very fast computer to keep up. Then, it has to be downconverted to put on DVD, because there are no HD DVD's yet.

I think the GS250 sounds good, but I need to try it in the hand to see how I like the format. I prefer the upright design myself. Also, I can't remember what I read that gave me some concern, but I will remeber and post.

I am considering the Canon Optura 600 too. Sounds like a decent contender. This one is pretty high on my list.

There's also the Sony DCR-HC90. I am not sure I want to go with sony again, though. I generally have a low opinion of their consumer electronics, and the support is non-existent.

ar

[anitract]

From everything I've read, the main concern of the GS250 is the so-so low light performance. OTOH, it is better than a lot of other cameras' low-light performance.

My girlfriend thinks I am nuts. I tried the direct approach. She claims I spend too much on "technology". *nervous laughter* Don't worry, I will break her down eventually.

[lenti_75]

GS 150 250 and 400 are known for motor noise, like a cat purrring noise. if you buy it, be careful and check it first.

it's not a bad camcorder, probably the best for that price. the low light is a problem for every camcorder under 2k.

[Paul William]

Low Light quality. It was mentioned above, and it is worh repeating. I often am shooting indoors, and you can't make an infant wait for you to go around and turn on all the lights before they roll over or take their first step.

I wouldn't worry too much about poor low light performance; you can always fix low-light problems later in "post production" using software "filters". All camcorders suffer from poor low light performance; some more than others, true, but poor performance can be improved after the fact with software.

- Paul

[davideck]

I wouldn't worry too much about poor low light performance; you can always fix low-light problems later in "post production" using software "filters".

Surely you jest...

[wwjd]

If the PV GS150,250 and 400 are well known for motor noise then it is a well kept secret! Where are you getting this info?

See review
http://www.dvspot.com/reviews/panasonic/pv_gs250-review/index.shtml

CNET and Camcorderinfo did not mention motor noise either.

BTW my 250 does not make any motor noise.

[Paul William]

I wouldn't worry too much about poor low light performance; you can always fix low-light problems later in "post production" using software "filters".

Surely you jest...

No jest. I'll have to post before and after pics for you to see. I use the "Auto Correct Color Balance" filter in Pinnacle Studio 9 and it works wonders on my yellow subdued color indoor scenes, shot with my Panasonic PV-GS250, which is whisper quiet, esp. compaired to my last Sony. The only thing I don't like is having to select manual control functions, like shutter speed, and appature using the rubber toggle and menu tree; much better to have that on the lense.

- Paul

[edDV]

I wouldn't worry too much about poor low light performance; you can always fix low-light problems later in "post production" using software "filters".

Surely you jest...

No jest. I'll have to post before and after pics for you to see. I use the "Auto Correct Color Balance" filter in Pinnacle Studio 9 and it works wonders on my yellow subdued color indoor scenes, shot with my Panasonic PV-GS250, which is whisper quiet, esp. compaired to my last Sony. The only thing I don't like is having to select manual control functions, like shutter speed, and appature using the rubber toggle and menu tree; much better to have that on the lense.

- Paul

Levels correction is very different from noisy low light correction. At some point you hit the noise floor and have to live with it or find a way to add lights.