New JVC VHS/SVHS for capture

[sanlyn]

Still looking for a replacement VHS/SVHS machine to take over from my ailing Panasonic PV-9668. The Panny has a great picture and excels at slow-speed playback (I have some 400 hours of EP tapes of excellent quality, and about 200 hours on SP made on first-rate SONY and Panny machines). I'm capturing thru an AIW 9600 directly to MPEG with excellent results, and editing from there.

But the sick Panny is driving me nuts. It stops randomly on SP only. No one in NY wants to work on it, so I need a replacement. Anyone have experience with the JVC pro SR-V101US? It appears to be a new version of the 7xxx series. It has the TBC I want for the few tapes that appear to have been recorded on a SONY with alignment problems.

I've already had a bad experience with 2 defective (new) JVC 9911's. I don't really need the 4MB DNR in the 9911, the SR-V101's 2MB should be good enough for VHS tapes in decent shape. NY stores sell new ones for $280 (the MSRP is $440). I know there are ProLine Panasonics around for the same prices, but they're JVC's with a Panasonic label.

The old Panny is OK with LP and SLP speeds, it far exceeds any JVC in that area.

This makes 4 bad experiences with JVC products since 1990. I returned every one of them, either because of defects in new machines or so-so performance that couldn't match my other VCR's. Maybe the professional JVC 101 can break this pattern? The 9911 is out for me, I've wasted $70 in transportation and return costs which reduced my budget for new machines.

[justinluck]

What was defective with the two 9911s?

[sanlyn]

1st unit had a bad output module, edge streaking and "frying" highlights on output. 2nd unit had very soft recorded image on all speeds, I was told this was a transport or alignment problem, and TBC wouldn't kick in on playback.

[gshelley61]

Look for a good deal on a used Panasonic AG-1970 or AG-1980. Try to get one in excellent shape with low hours on it. Very nice picture.

Sony SLV-R1000 or the prosumer SVO-2000 also have a very nice playback image.

I know you've had trouble with the JVC units, but if you can get hold of a good used HR-S9600, 9800, or 7600 I think you would be very happy. Top notch playback image and very good build quality. The SR-V101US is the same machine as last year's SR-V10US and the HR-S7900U consumer deck. These are OK units, but are not full sized VCR's.

The JVC HR-S9500U is another one to consider because it also has the 4MB processor, although it doesn't have as many filter options in the playback setup menu as the 9600 or 9800. Still, the build quality on the 9500 is great and the playback image is excellent.

[davideck]

The SR-V101US looks like it is based on the newer HR-S2902 / 3902 / 5902 chassis. The older JVC machines were built better and produced better pictures.

The SR-V101US also appears to have a TBC but no DNR. That may actually be a good thing. I wish my JVC 7600 / 9600 VCRs would let me turn on the TBC and turn off the DNR, but the only choices are both on or both off.

[sanlyn]

davideck: according to the SR-V101US manual at JVC's site, it has all the picture and DNR options of the 9911. There's no TBC toggle on the chassis of the 101 -- TBC on/off is in the menu screens, along with all the others. I was hoping that a "pro" unit might have a better build than the near-junk prosumers JVC is apparently dumping on the market.

I see 7600's for about $150 on eBay, now and then. I've been keeping my eyes open, but was hoping for a new machine or genuine factory refurb. I bought used stuff on eBay before (SONY), but it wasn't as fit as described and I ended up giving it to the father-in-law (wo can destroy anything in 2 months or less!).

I don't expect the 101 to be as good as the older units or even a fully working 9911. I can moderately spif up the image with capture controls. If the 101 is decent, it might just do -- barely. It appears that in a new VCR, JVC is all there is now. But I'll keep looking for a used or rebuilt unit in the meantime. I've seen 7600's, they had pretty decent performance. The image and TBC are the most important -- fast wind, other features, etc., are immaterial.

Meanwhile the Panasonic falters, but it sure has a great picture. Sony and Panny have spoiled me all these years. Then they flew the coop overnite.

[davideck]

sanlyn - you are right about the DNR. I should have checked the manual - sorry.

I bought and returned a brand new HR-S2902 a while back because it didn't seem to be built very well and the picture quality was pretty lame. Sluggish transport as well. If you check out the reviews, many people claim that it doesn't last long.

Another advantage of the 7600 / 9000 series is the Dynamic Drum System which may provide superior tracking for your EP tapes.

My favorite capture VCR is my JVC HR-S6800U; no TBC but a very stable transport. Picture quality is excellent; the images are detailed with low noise.

They definitely don't build them like they used to...

[sanlyn]

From used sources I see the following, supposedly in good shape:

SONY SLV-585HF (ah, the good ole days!)

SONY SLV-575UC (rebuilt, but bad buttons on remote. So what?), for $79 !!!

JV HR-S7800U, rebuilt by owner

I just passed up a Panny SV-8660 on eBay, it went for $15.

This is what I found out there this week. I'm really tempted to go for the SLV-575UC, remote or not,
but the 585HF is newer (?).

If anyone has any odds on these machines, I'll tie my wife in the closet while I try some of these.

[gshelley61]

I have another unit I really like... the JVC BR-S378U. It is a very well built S-VHS prosumer machine. No TBC, but it has some cool features like I and Q white balance, color saturation, sharpness, noise reduction, etc. These can all be completely bypassed, too. Plus, you don't need a remote to operate it (no menu functions). They show up on eBay from time to time.

[sanlyn]

eBay has a few 7800's around, they seem in good shape. I haven't seen a 'BR' in quite a spell. Still looking. And you're right -- about 5 years ago, VHS makers began abandoning their buyers. It took 10 years for the CD to replace the LP, but you can still buy good new analog phono stuff, same prices as 1995, and well made.

Know anyone who can work on a Panasonic PV-9668? I found someone in Florida, but don't trust them.

That SONY 595CU is starting to look tempting, even if it is 7 years olod. The remote is $55.

[sanlyn]

With so many questions and posts about the VCR's being used for capture, why isn't there a VCR forum?

[lordsmurf]

With so many questions and posts about the VCR's being used for capture, why isn't there a VCR forum?

There doesn't need to be.
- Basic VCR discussion stays in CAPTURING.
- More advanced VCRs (with filters, aimed for image enhancement) goes on the RESTORATION forum.

Since this conversation has turned more advanced it's been moved.

[sanlyn]

Thanks for that forum info, lordsmurf.

Having spent months on this project of finding a VCR that performs well for archiving and restoration, it appears that rebuilt units from a couple of years back would offer the best promise -- unless you wanna spend $1500-plus on broadcast equipment, much of which requires technical knowlege, calibration, etc.

For anyone following this thread, the auction and refurb shops have JVC and SONY prosumer units and up, and it pretty much ends there. Some refurbs go back to the early 1990's. From there, you have to hit the 'Net or this forum to research the results you might expect.

As a non-believer in software restoral (unless you have no other choice), I try hardware fixes before anything else. Amazingly, the amount of software out there designed for use with low-quality captures is proliferating. My experience is: software seldom does the job, and takes forever. I'm taking a clue from this forum and trying to solve problems with hardware first.

Old, reliable hardware is either diminishing rapidly or balooning in price.

I'm after a used JVC HR-S7800U, new SR-V101U or rebuilt Sony SLV-740HF. That's what's out there today, might change tomorrow. Anyone have any experience with these? Anyone know of a site or forum that lists used/refurbed listings in one place? I'm wearing out my optical mouse cruising Google.

[gshelley61]

I had a JVC HR-S7800U for awhile. The 7600 is definitely a better made unit, and has a better picture, too. I'd say the 7600 is the 2MB DigiPure JVC machine to get, if you can find one. They do sell for less than 9600's and 9800's go for when they pop up on eBay.

[sanlyn]

Thanks, gshelley61, I've been on the lookout for older (but still breathing) JVC's. I saw a 7800 on eBay tonite, but passed it up. Around midnite it went for $203.50 -- a little steep, I think.

But old poor-mouth himself did pick up a Panasonic PV-8661 (1999 vintage) for $35 with shipping. Not quite a PV-9668, but close. These are the last of the decent megastore Omnivisions. The 8661 will keep my easier captures going while I look for something with more heft.

Like my other Panny I doubt the transport and heads will last the way the cast-iron upscale models of the early and mid 90's did.

So far, this thread has "narrowed" my search upward to machines above $1K (fat chance), or downward to older, high-end JVC's, SONY's, and proline Panasonics. There are even SONY 565HF and "UC" models showing up. Preferred would be older JVC's with TBC, or even a late SONY with TBC (they even looked like JVC's, and probably were). Problem with later SONY is that few of them ran well to begin with. Not only are good VCR's disappearing, but the websites and game shops that used to review those critters have also thinned out, so sources for information about older machines is as rare as the machines themselves.

Thanks for the tips, people. Anyone stumbling into the auction and underground sites on the 'Net couldn't survive without the information I've found in this forum. When you read those decriptions and look at those photos, you gotta be reeeaaal keerful, pilgrim! If I had been more patient and researched more thoroughly, I coulda saved myself some $$, time, and irritation.

[fmctm1sw]

I saw a few VCRs mentioned that I can provide a little insight on. I own the SLV-575UC model you mentioned earlier. It is very big and heavy. I like the VCR but I've seen problems with it amplifying flaws in my VHS tape. Almost like it's hyper sensitive. It makes the picture jump as well. If you do a google search, you'll find posts here in which I put screen caps demonstrating this. It could be the heads or an alignment problem but I don't use it much any more. On another note, I'll say that repair of the 575UC is possible for anyone with a halfway decent electronic skills as I've repaired mine twice now (gears). Audio is a strong suit. Where other VCRs muffle the sound on my old tapes, this VCR will provide the best playback. I've even tried to capture and use only the audio portion of a tape played back on this VCR (pain in the ass, lesson learned).

I have a Sony SLV-700HF as well that I don't use much any more either since I bought my SVHS machines. That thing gave a rock stable picture refused to cause dropped frames though and it was my favorite for older tapes since the 575UC sometimes went crazy with the bouncing picture I mentioned above. This unit has a noise reduction switch that will blur the image. I mistakenly used a few of the screen caps with this setting in comparison with my SLV-575UC.

I also have one of the mentioned JVC models. Well sort of... I have a Victor HR-VX200 which appears to be a JVC 9600 clone. Or, maybe more correctly, the JVC is a clone of this. This VCR provides a great picture but sometimes has trouble with tracking. I don't like turning off the auto tracking since with my old tapes, it ends up causing trouble later in the tape. As someone else mentioned, the TBC is tied to the DNR function. The good news is, there is a "course" and "fine" (at least that's how it translates in Japanese) DNR setting for it. It does a great job with most of my tapes and provides a slightly (ever so slightly) better picture than my...

Toshiba A-SB88 (SVHS). Provides a very stable output and features a built in TBC along with DNR with the same fine/coarse settings I mentioned earlier. The Victor has a (very) slightly better resolution judging from the comparisons that I have done with a res chart. For all the great things we hear about the JVC 9XXX line, this is every bit as good in my opinion. It doesn't give me the tracking issues the Victor does. As far as audio goes, I'd rate it near the bottom though.

To qualify all that, I'll say that my primary experience has been with EP recorded tapes that are in excess of 15 years old. I mean, old to the point that I have a DJ Jazzy Jeff and the Fresh Prince commercial for their 900 number (and NWA too). When I say, "the audio isn't that good, " I talking about those tapes. With good tapes, I rarely have any problem with the SVHS units I use now. I guess what I have learned is there probably isn't one sigle VCR that is the answer to every single tape. A lot of folks here have even gotten great results with a cheapo VCR (can't argue with cheap). Perhaps you could have one "high end" unit and a backup in case of trouble.

[sanlyn]

Thanks for info on the 575UC. I'm eyeing a few, but checking carefully to see if they're in good shape. I have an outboard TBC that has fixed every VHS frame synch problem so far, and my ATI capture card has decent (and variable) input image controls that work well at mild levels.

Some VCR's with nondefeatable denoisers (such as JVC and some pro SONYs and Pannies) simply blur the image so badly they can't be considered "restored", IMHO -- it's a case of throwing out the baby with the bath water. For the most part, restoral of really poor tapes takes $5000+ in equipment, or prosumer gear that can create a big mess if you're not careful. VHS/SVHS is noisy, period. You have to be able to live with a certain amount of it, or get some really expensive software that works on a frame-by-frame basis, taking up so much time you no longer have a life. The ideal I seek is to make a DVD that looks at least as good as quality playback from a VCR. Making a VHS/SVHS look like DVD is not possible.

As someone astutely observed elsewhere, now that quality VCR's are no longer available at decent prices, good analog playback is ironically more important than ever. Analog had its problems but it did have leeway; digital is unforgiving and amplifies poor playback. On a budget, most of us are stuck with long lists of used VCR's of yesteryear in dubious condition. I look at JVC's, but older Pannies and SONYs are still around from the mid90's (and earlier). Tech shops won't repair them, in my experience, and I have yet to find a techy (except on this forum) who shows interest in image quality.

Which brings up another question. Anyone know of reputable shops that will repair older, upscale VCR's? I found one in Florida, but I don't trust them. So I had to ditch two very competent SONY SLV-585HF's after 10 years and am living with a sick but still workable Panasonic. The line you get from authorized repair shops is that I should just "buy a new one". Everyone here knows that most affordable VCR's today are useless for restoral and archiving, and appear to be made from recycled candy foil wrappers at exorbitant prices.

Barring the existence of concerned techs, here's another question: anyone know of a book or other source where one can learn to repair a VCR on their own?

[gshelley61]

Here's a pretty decent online guide to repairing most common VCR problems:

http://www.fixer.com/

[sanlyn]

Thanks, gshelley61. Checking it out now.

[davideck]

sanlyn -

Picture quality seems to be your top priority. Since you already have an outboard TBC (which one?) and are not happy with the DNR performance (I agree with you), why not consider an older unit without these features? They are not as popular as the TBC/DNR units, so when they show up on EBay they usually go pretty cheap.

I think that the introduction of the TBC/DNR capability allowed JVC to lower the quality of their transports. IMHO, the VCRs that JVC made prior to the TBC/DNR units produced the best pictures (6900 / 4900 / 6800 / 5800 ...). The Super Spec Drive in the 6900 / 4900 was the peak of their transport design. VERY stable.

I bought an HR-S4900 and an HR-S5400 from EBay that were in like new condition and produce beautiful, detailed pictures. As I mentioned before, I typically use an HR-S6800 for capture. I set it in edit mode to sharpen the image just a bit. I run that through a TBC-3000. Its A/D - D/A process tends to slightly soften the image and actually provides a small bit of noise reduction. Apart from the MPEG-2 artifacts, I would claim that the DVD typically looks better than the original tape.

[sanlyn]

davideck: Yes, I go for as little processing as possible, whenever feasible. My TBC is the AVT-8710. Yes, only $180 at B&H in NY, but a pristine, simple unit that did the best job of composite/S-video conversion. Haven't had a dropped or distorted frame yet, and image is cleaner than thru my former TBC-1000.

No, bullt-in TBC isn't so important, especially with too much DNR that can't be disabled. Nice, but not essential, and I'd need a full-frame TBC anyway.

I have indeed captured several VHS movies that improved on the original. Still don't look like DVD, but better than the tapes. Until recently, my last JVC was in 1995. I liked the SP, but it couldn't compete with my SONY or Panny on slower speeds. I have some EP's from my SONY with images that still knock my socks off. A little denoiser (5%) from my ATI card for the tape noise, and they look splendid (the Japanese film "Dreams" has my wife staring for hours at the DVD we made).

I note on eBay there are almost no bidders for 90's machines that don't have S-video out or fancy features. Most look at the late 90's, when quality really suffered. But an oldie in good shape is hard to find.

Like my sig sez, still lookin'. I bought an old 1992 SONY, it's in the mail. Will post some caps elsewhere -- if the darn thing still runs.

Thanks, will take you up on the early JVC's.

[lordsmurf]

Some VCR's with nondefeatable denoisers (such as JVC and some pro SONYs and Pannies) simply blur the image so badly they can't be considered "restored", IMHO

I don't where you're getting this impression. The JVC units can have these filters and the TBC turned off, and is indeed suggested you leave it in these edit modes while recording. Turning it off while playing will, of course, you give the raw unfiltered signal, which ultimately defeats the purpose of a "good" VCR. If you just want it played, get the $40 Walmart special.

[sanlyn]

I understand, lordsmurf, what you're saying. I've seen noise reduction take many forms; I didn't care for it in some 90's SONYs: the DNR made a smooth picture but muted the colors and erased eyeballs. Others pumped the color, and showed edge over-sharpening and mild ghost reduction at the same time (SLV-585F). I should think it easier to restore the latter, and tougher to work with the former.

It seems easier to "restore" or "improve" an image that has most of its signal intact. Once certain elements are kaput, downline restoral takes on strange results. Cutting a little noise and correcting faded color is another story: blue is blue, whetrer dark or light. But you can't restore something that ain't coming out of the machine or is wiped out by a capture card.

The cheapie special doesn't just play. It distorts, detracts, and adds noise. I've had them, which is why I'm holding on to a $275 player with anamorphic heads instead of poorly mounted "19-microns" in $80 machines. I'm used to getting SP that looked like film, and SLP and EP that looks like SP with a little noise in it. These can be fixed, at least mildly. I think it's a matter of preference -- and here we get into judgments instead of technicalities.

But you bring up a good point. When we say we are "restoring" a tape or film, are we saying we're working with all the nekkid detail we can drag out of it and going from there, are we using poor players to get an eviscerated image and then trying to re-invent what's missing, or are we bringing in a fairly faithful albeit imperfect signal and cleaning out the inherent debris as best we can without destroying major elements?

That decision determines whether one can tolerate hearing old LP's on a new $60 Technics player or a used $2500 Linn turntable. It seems to be a matter of preference, and both preferences seem valid.

I know that with overdone DNR on many machines you can turn most of it off. But not all. JVC's and SONYs are overdoing the cleaning bit, even when "off", and I have recent captures from this weekend that demonstrate the effects. I don't like what the newer units are doing to the picture. Others prefer it. I find it irritating. Over the years I turned down many popular units, for the same reason.

So I'm out there loooking for old-line VCR's that play tapes well but don't play them to death. From there, I feel I can "restore" something. In the end, I have to support the spirit of your remarks on your DVD forum: the source player can't do all the work, and neither can any single device or technique in the restoral chain. They all add up.

[Donny661]

I agree with sanlyn; I like the idea of working with raw, unaltered images. I just recently started getting into capturing, so I looked for a good VCR that I could get for less than $200. I first looked at the JVC 3902 for around $130, but from the opinions of people on this board, I decided to look for something a bit more high-end even if I had to go with used equipment. I wanted to get something from the JVC 9000 series, but even used, those go for more than I really wanted to spend.

Then, I stumbled upon a few JVC SR-S365U VCRs on Ebay. It is the "economy" grade editing VCR from JVC (although I don't think it economical at over $1000 retail, but then again I didn't care about the editing features). It doesn't boast about noise reduction or TBC, although there is a very brief mention in the press releases about some sort of color correction. I was able to win one for $128.

The picture from the S365U isn't an amazing viewing experince like some people feel they get with the HR-S9911U, but it seems like an accurate representation of what is on the tape without any added artifacts and, conversely, without any filtering or "enhancing" (then again, I haven't compared many VCRs but I do know what an overly filtered and enhanced image is like). The unit itself seems to be adequately built; it's not a tank like most other broadcast VCRs, but it's also not nearly as flimsy as the cheap Wal-Mart model VCRs.

Overall I'm pretty happy with my purchase. I certainly wouldn't have wanted to pay much more for it because, beyond its editing capabilities, there are very few options for playback and none really affect image quality at all, and I can't really compare the image to anything else on or near its level. What I found interesting too was that there are very few reviews or comments about this VCR; I searched for s365u and it hasn't even been mentioned at all on this site and there is little more about it on Google. I kind of gambled with this purchase thinking that it must have decent image quality and reliablility if it retails over $1000, and I hoped the only reason it went for so little was because it isn't very popular. I just thought you might like to consider searching for a used JVC SR-S365U as another option because I see it as sort of fitting the description of the VCR you are looking for.

[sanlyn]

Thanks, donny661, I'll aad that to the list of possibilities. Lucky you got one for that price.

[gshelley61]

There are lots of great older S-VHS units without TBC/DNR processors in them, both consumer and professional. Sometimes you can get a real nice professional grade broadcast machine for a steal on eBay, since there is virtually no demand for them anymore.

[sanlyn]

I'm on the lookout for those, too. I see some around, but the photos are either too gloppy to be able to see anything, or the bidding has already gone over my limit. But will keep looking.

Last week I bid and won a Panny PV-8661 (circa 1998) for $21 (!) plus shipping. Unit arrived and was immaculate. I don't think there were even any fingerprints on it. Construction is about par for late 90's, but it doesn't have a scratch on it. I bid because I figured it was good for SLP playback. I was right: SP is okay, not all that great, but SLP has a really nice, sharp, snappy image. Just what I needed for all those SLP and EP tapes, it will do a good job.

Now if I can find a unit with superior SP playback, slower speeds are no longer a problem.

[victoriabears]

jvc sr-10v-great

and don't forget the sharp vcr's and that for many projects, RCA output will do what you want.

Good well made standard toshiba units can also do a good job.

[sanlyn]

Yes, I've looked at everything on every 'Net source I can find (even going to ztradingpost.com). I found an online user manual for the $21 vcr (free) and a remote at Panasonic's site ($30 with shipping). I ran a capture last nite of an old SLP slow-speed tape, it worked beautifully.

For restoral work, I find the ATI AIW "Combo2" filter used very mildly (less than 10%) to reduce edge noise on slow tapes and to sharpen the picture a little without making more noise. Anyone know just what this filter is doing? I gave up on ATI's "Combo1" filter, it destroys everything in the image.

If anyone cares to check out ztradingpost (www.ztradingpost.com), they have a huge inventory of used VCR's at absurd prices -- so low, I hardly trust it. Found this site thru an article in PCMagazine. Lots of stuff, but few photos and scant descriptions.

Now bidding on an old SONY SLV-585HF (circa 1991), which I used to own. Also today, an SLV-595HF went on auction, looks clean. These had a very sharp picture on both speeds, better than their more expensive cousins, and were made better than later models. Restoral would be facilitated with these, as their DNR was much better than on later Sonys. If you're going to restore anything, it's nice to have a fairly pristine image to start with, especially on SLP/EP.

These early 90's vcrs have composite outputs. I have a composite Belden 1505A that transmits a very clear signal, then I convert to S-video thru my AVT 8710, does a good clean job of it, better than the TBC-1000 I used to own, and improves the capture a great deal.

Because most of my old VHS tapes were recorded on Sonys and Pannys, I'd assume I'd get better results using similar machines. This business of restoral of old VHS tapes is frustrating -- sure, it had its limits, but not many VCR's could get a good slow-speed image. Those that could are the ones I'm looking at.

[CCEncoder]

I have a SLV-575UC but after about 10min of playing the video starts pausing for 1sec then continue then pause again and so on. can anyone tell me why is this? I opened it and the mechanism seems to stop and not because of a tape clog but something more strange.