Windows Movie Maker and DV capture

[sharktacos]

I've been using Windows Movie Maker to capture video from my DV cam through firewire. In the options you basically have the choice of one AVI format (DV-AVI) or many .wmv formats. Since none of the editing programs I have can read .wmv and the Windows Movie Player itself has no "save" (huh?!) I am left with one choice when I capture video or save an editing session to video.

I am noticing that each time I save it in this AVI format, it compresses the video making it progressivly worse each time which is of course unacceptable. So I would like to know if there are are any workarounds to this. I know I could just go buy Adobe Premiere or AfterEffects, but would like to avoid shelling out 1000 bucks. Is there a solid high quality editing system out there with a reasonable price?

Think: "the DVD-lab of video editing". Or "I-Film for PC"

thanks!

[canadateck]

WinDV to Transfer/Capture your Video. VirtualDubMod to Edit the Video. I really dont know any Free Mpg2 Encoders, Just look in the Tools to the Left.<<<<<<

[canadateck]

HC is a free MPEG2 Encoder

[edDV]

....

I am noticing that each time I save it in this AVI format, it compresses the video making it progressivly worse each time which is of course unacceptable. So I would like to know if there are are any workarounds to this. I know I could just go buy Adobe Premiere or AfterEffects, but would like to avoid shelling out 1000 bucks. Is there a solid high quality editing system out there with a reasonable price?

Think: "the DVD-lab of video editing". Or "I-Film for PC"

thanks!

That would not be the case if you were saving to DV-AVI. MS hides that option under "other settings" and seems to tempt you to save as highly compressed wmv.

So WMM can capture, edit and save as DV-AVI if you force your way through.

Best affordable programs are:

Sony Vegas Movie Studio
ULead Video Studio 9
Adobe Premiere Elements (DV only)

All contain an MPeg2 encoder (all Mainconcept based) and basic DVD authoring. All list at around $99 but can be had for far less with rebates and sales. All have upgrade paths to pro versions.

[sharktacos]

WinDV to Transfer/Capture your Video. VirtualDubMod to Edit the Video. I really dont know any Free Mpg2 Encoders, Just look in the Tools to the Left.<<<<<<

Thanks. I downloaded winDV to give it a try. I doesn't seem to say how it is recording the AVI files (what kind of compression if any, what bitrate, frames per second, etc). Do you know where I could find this kind of thing out? I didn;t see it on the homepage for the app...

[sharktacos]

That would not be the case if you were saving to DV-AVI. MS hides that option under "other settings" and seems to tempt you to save as highly compressed wmv.

So WMM can capture, edit and save as DV-AVI if you force your way through.

Maybe there is a slight misunderstanding here: I am saving in WMM as DV-AVI, the problem is that this AVI file is heavily compressed and thus progressivly loses image quality each time I save.

[edDV]

WinDV to Transfer/Capture your Video. VirtualDubMod to Edit the Video. I really dont know any Free Mpg2 Encoders, Just look in the Tools to the Left.<<<<<<

Thanks. I downloaded winDV to give it a try. I doesn't seem to say how it is recording the AVI files (what kind of compression if any, what bitrate, frames per second, etc). Do you know where I could find this kind of thing out? I didn;t see it on the homepage for the app...

WinDV is a barebone very high quality control panel for Windows Directshow which will control your camcorder, transfer your DV stream to a DV-AVI file and includes a limited buffer in case your CPU desides to take control of the machine and HDD during transfer. It also allows you to monitor your video during cue and transfer.

It is designed only for DV transfer from or to the camcorder.

[edDV]

That would not be the case if you were saving to DV-AVI. MS hides that option under "other settings" and seems to tempt you to save as highly compressed wmv.

So WMM can capture, edit and save as DV-AVI if you force your way through.

Maybe there is a slight misunderstanding here: I am saving in WMM as DV-AVI, the problem is that this AVI file is heavily compressed and thus progressivly loses image quality each time I save.

That should not be the case. DV is a fixed format and further compression is not allowed within the standard. WMM may be doing something else to screw up the video. Best to use one of the programs above.

[sharktacos]

WinDV is a barebone very high quality control panel for Windows Directshow which will control your camcorder, transfer your DV stream to a DV-AVI file and includes a limited buffer in case your CPU desides to take control of the machine and HDD during transfer. It also allows you to monitor your video during cue and transfer.

It is designed only for DV transfer from or to the camcorder.

Right. I understand that. But I would still like to know what kind of compression if any it has, what bitrate the file is saved at, how many frames per second, etc...

Should I assume it is one-to-one zero compression? Because the DV-AVI that WMM output was most certainly not zero compression. It was compressed so badly that there was a visable difference in quality after just one generation.

[edDV]

WinDV is a barebone very high quality control panel for Windows Directshow which will control your camcorder, transfer your DV stream to a DV-AVI file and includes a limited buffer in case your CPU desides to take control of the machine and HDD during transfer. It also allows you to monitor your video during cue and transfer.

It is designed only for DV transfer from or to the camcorder.

Right. I understand that. But I would still like to know what kind of compression if any it has, what bitrate the file is saved at, how many frames per second, etc...

Should I assume it is one-to-one zero compression? Because the DV-AVI that WMM output was most certainly not zero compression. It was compressed so badly that there was a visable difference in quality after just one generation.

I can't speak to the internals of WMM. DV (NTSC raster) video is 25Mb/s, 8bit, 4:1:1, 29.97 frames per second, interlaced and is created at the source camcorder in hardware. The transfer to the PC is done losslessly. DV format file copy is very close to lossless and can be dubbed to many generations of tape. At 25Mb/s DV is compressed approx 5:1. Fully uncompressed 4:2:2 (SMPTE 259M) is 270-360 Mb/s at 10 bit.
See https://www.videohelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=277012&highlight=smpte+259m for more explanation of "uncompressed".

When DV format hits an editor or filter, losses can occur depending on the processing done in that process/application.

http://www.adamwilt.com/DV.html
Feel free to ask more.

[sharktacos]

I can't speak to the internals of WMM

how about the internals of WinDV?
Is that uncompressed one-to-one?

[wwjd]

sharktacos,

WINDV is NOT doing anything but enabling the transfer of the DV avi from your camcorder to your HDD. DV avi is a stanard and is what is actually recorded on your miniDV. DV avi is 720x480 and has a bit rate around 25mb/sec. So, for clarity, WINDV does absolutely nothing to the DV avi stored on your miniDV is just simply transfers the DV avi from your minDV tape to your HDD.

By the way, the great thing about WINDV is that it is not able to do anything other than transfer the DV avi to HDD.

[edDV]

I can't speak to the internals of WMM

how about the internals of WinDV?
Is that uncompressed one-to-one?

As wwjd said a DV stream transfer is a bit by bit transfer and the resulting data file on the disk will be identical to the data on the tape so long as the transfer is successful. It isn't a file transfer. Error correction is minimal.

Likewise a cuts only edit should result in near zero generation loss. When the video frames or some of the pixels are filtered or scaled, some loss may occur so care should be used.

The DV standard is essentially the same as that used by broadcasters for general production. Higher end formats get very expensive. Digital Betacam is 10bit, 4:2:2 and 2:1 compressed vs DV at 8bit, 4:1:1 and 5:1 compression.

A Digital Betacam VCR or camcorder will cost you over $40k each. DV is incredible quality for the cost.