MacTheRipper MTR 3.0

[Booger]

Hope the mods don't get pissed at me for posting this...

I don't know either WiseWeasel or Geezer - but just felt the urge to get this off my chest...

If you're an MTR user and have not yet made a $ contribution PLEASE DO SO!!! My understanding is you'd be shocked at how few have actually contributed.
Remember, this is arguably the ONLY hard core ripping util we Mac users have at our disposal!!!
It would be a terrible shame to have Weasel and Geezer throw their arms up in despair and say "to heck with it" (something that has almost happened a couple of times).

If you've backed up at least 5 DVD's using MTR, then you've probably saved at least $75 by not having to go out and re-buy the titles again.
Isn't that worth at LEAST $25 (or more)?

C'mon - go to your PayPal acct and send 'em a "Thank$"
(email 'em at mtr@ripdifferent.com and ask for the PayPal acct to send a donatation to). Trust me, you'll feel a heck of a lot better PLUS they'll send you a link to d/l the cool new 3.0 version!!!

Hey, most of us (literally) piss away $5 a day in Starbucks or have it go up in flames via our smokes. Go without for a couple of days and instead send the $ to somebody who has made something for us that we take for granted.

Remember, you're NOT being asked to support some greedy schmucks like MicroScum here,... instead you're supporting a hard working Joe, just like yourself. I'm sure Geezer's spent endless all nighters banging out code and pulling out their hair to make a tool for us that does some pretty awesome stuff!

To all who have sent $ - "Good on ya, mates!"

In case you didn't know, you can go to ripdifferent.com and browse/post to the mtr forum there for tons of help with MTR.

I know this sounds like a solicitation, but it's honestly just straight from the heart. Appreciate ALL of the help I get on this board from EVERYONE!

Cheers!

[terryj]

So is MTR 3.0 out yet? or is it still in Beta?

[terryj]

I'd also like to point out that since Gb and Wease left for Ripdiffrent, we hadn't heard much of a peep about
GB's financial situation [you'd think he'd share with his
"first" family, after all...]. I only just went over there
TODAY and started catching up on GB's finacial problems....

If he wants to take MTR 3.0 into shareware or crippleware, that's fine by me. I'd have no problems paying for it.

[JoachimS]

Yes, MTR 3 is still in Beta. However it appears to me, that it is close to a final release. Maybe a couple of weeks to go, propably donation-ware.

You can donate anytime via PayPal and MTR 3 will be yours as soon as it is released.

To know more, check out the sticky postings there.

Cheers,

Joachim

[thoughton]

Although I don't use it nearly as much as I used to (finished backing up my collection now :P) I'd be happy to donate. The only thing that has prevented me from doing so in the past is the occasional threats and petulance from the developers, some of which have verged on blackmail. I'm with terry on this one, if they are having financial problems them make MTR payware. Stop this dicking around pretending its freeware but holding back releases until X number of people have donated etc.

[Mucx]

Although I don't use it nearly as much as I used to (finished backing up my collection now :P) I'd be happy to donate. The only thing that has prevented me from doing so in the past is the occasional threats and petulance from the developers, some of which have verged on blackmail. I'm with terry on this one, if they are having financial problems them make MTR payware. Stop this dicking around pretending its freeware but holding back releases until X number of people have donated etc.

You know I agree with this sentiment exactly...

I love MacTheRipper, and seeing as it is the only continuing program being updated and developed it deserves my respect and congratulations...and my donation.

Though there is something I can't quite put my finger on that has left me feeling sour about the developers, I understand that it requires time and you have real jobs but...I'm sorry you have to have common sense and not put yourself under financial strain for a side project or hobby. It borders on stupidity and then when the realisation hits and you wake up and realise that you've messed up you take it out on the public who you have once happily been producing it for? I dunno, something wrong there.

You know if you want to see a succesful side/hobby project on the go then compare 'geezerbutt' (MacTheRipper) and 'major' (FfmpegX) and tell me it can't be done successfully if you have some common sense. I don't like to hit out but...seriously, Time Management is as big a skill as anything.

Such a shame as I love MacTheRipper and what is produced works to perfection....they still got my $20 though for a job well done.

Mucx

[thoughton]

Sorry, I'm not finished yet This has really got me going. Geezer's whole attitude is just so shitty. His latest thing is calling everyone who doesn't donate a leecher. Nice attitude towards your users. If you feel like that then DON'T MAKE YOUR APP FREEWARE. It's pretty simple.

Also the whole PayPal thing. Plenty of people cannot donate because PayPal only accepts payments from certain countries. These people want to pay by some alternative like Western Union. However Geezer is too lazy to get off his ass and set up a Western Union account. So who's fault is it that these people aren't donating?

Sorry for the rant, this really pisses me off.

[terryj]

I can understanf your sentiments, thoughton.
Long ago, when Geez and Wease ( sounds like a comedy troupe routine..? just kidding, don't get upset...)
were on THIS board and talking up about making MTR
Donationware/Payware/PayMEasIneed ware, I happily suggested it be take to shareware (STF). When he said
he was going to stop developement becasue he couldn't
afford a new DVD drive, I happily sent him a donation (STF)
to buy said drive.

Now from what I'm understanding, the developer team
can't agree on Shareware/Donationware.

Look, eventually I look at it like this...
Either
(a) He's (GB) going to get fed up and abandon MTR
(b) THE MPAA is going to come after him
(c) He's going to eventually get upstaged by someone
who is tired of the back forth he's putting the end users through,
and they will come up with an open source alternative.

It's a great app, I like it, I use it, and I have no problems
paying for it.
So just make it payware already, and let's be done,
without more of honking off the end users.

I mean, christ, he gets props in MacAddict and Macworld
for pete's sake....so its not like pople aren't aware of
his app.
if like mucx said, the hobby is too much on the wallet,
then charge for it a flat price, and then live off of that.

And yes, western union, ccbill, hell ebay...! even...
so many ways to pay nowadays....

[JoachimS]

See it from his point of view:

Maybe he lives in a country with strict laws against use/posession/writing of software that circumvents copy protection?

Maybe he is looking for a way to establish MTR as shareware but cannot figure out a way to remain anonymous?

He uses his way of marketing to make users crave for new versions, make them donate and gain enough money before his software appears on P2P?

Just my 2 cents...


Cheers,

Joachim

[thoughton]

It's public knowledge (at least on this forum) that Geezer lives in Switzerland, so no MPAA action for him. No EU worries either, for that matter.

However Geezer is too worried about prosecution (presumably by the Swiss authorities, unless he thinks he might be extradited) to charge money for his app, so he would like to get around it by soliciting donations.

The latest thing I just read over at ripdifferent was that Geezer is now handing out a link in exchange for donations (the link leads to the download location for MTR3), and he thinks this is going to help him escape liability since he's 'selling a link' instead of 'selling illegal software'. Hmmmmmm. Methinks that aint gonna wash

Geezer, you shouldn't worry about trying to avoid 'selling illegal software'. You are already doing it. When the only way to obtain a commodity is by 'donating' money to the producer, we the general public call that 'selling'. No doubt the man on the infamous Clapham Omnibus also calls it 'selling'. You can't dance around it and pretend it's donation when the donations are not optional

Just make it official and go payware Geezer! I'll be one of your first customers. You've already started selling the link, you might as well sell the software - to a Court of Law the two are indistinguishable. In for a penny, in for a pound.

[JoachimS]

I think MTR is not against any laws in Switzerland and in France. But I could be wrong.

And a donation is something voluntary, you do not receive anything in return, thus no buying/selling agreement.

Cheers,

Joachim

[terryj]

You've already started selling the link, you might as well sell the software - to a Court of Law the two are indistinguishable. In for a penny, in for a pound.

amen, my friend.
So let's open the floodgates already, and
SELL, SELL, SELL!!!

[AlbcAlbrr]

Here's a little history for you:

"Jon Lech Johansen (born November 18, 1983), also known as DVD Jon, is a Norwegian who was involved in the release of the DeCSS software. In 2002 he was put on trial in Norway but was found not guilty of any illegal behaviour. A second trial in 2003 resulted in him being acquitted a second time.

The prosecution was conducted by Økokrim, a Norwegian crime unit investigating and prosecuting economic crime, after a complaint by the US DVD Copy Control Association (DVD-CCA) and the Motion Picture Association (MPAA). Johansen has denied writing the decryption code in DeCSS, saying that this part of the project originated from someone in Germany. His defense was assisted by the Electronic Frontier Foundation. The trial opened in the Oslo district court on December 9, 2002 with Johansen pleading not-guilty to charges that had a maximum penalty of two years in prison or large fines. The defense argued that no illegal access was obtained to anyone else's information, since Johansen owned the DVDs himself. Also, they pointed out that it is legal under Norwegian law to make copies of such data for personal use. The verdict was announced on January 7, 2003 acquitting Johansen of all charges.

This being the verdict of the district court, two further levels of appeals were available to the prosecutors. Økokrim filed an appeal on January 20, 2003 and it was reported on February 28 that the appeals court had agreed to hear the case. On March 5, 2003 the appeals court said that arguments filed by the movie industry and additional evidence merited another trial.

Johansen's second DeCSS trial began in Oslo on December 2, 2003, and resulted in an acquittal on December 22, 2003. Økokrim announced on January 5, 2004 that it would not appeal the case any further."
From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jon_Johansen

That was Norway, and Geezerbuttz may not live there, but history shows that the DVD CCA and the MPAA appear to have a long reach and carry a lot of influence.

Does anyone remember 321 Studios? They got put out business because of their product DVD X Copy.

All it would take is one major lawsuit, and even if he was found innocent, Geezerbuttz would be wiped out financially providing his defense.

We may enjoy using MTR but we don't have a threat hanging over our heads - he does. So whatever methods and filters he chooses to use to feel protected by should be supported by us. It's his software and he is free to pass it around as he sees fit.

[thoughton]

That was 5 years ago. Things change. Opinions change. As your Wikipedia reference points out, since working on DeCSS, DVD Jon has gone on to very publicly crack MS's WMV9 codec, Apple's iTunes Music Store DRM (several times), and Google Video, and none of them have sued him.

In any case, DeCSS is based on a leaked key from the Xing player which is why the authors got hassled, whereas libdvdcss (what MTR uses) uses a brute force attack which is supposedly legal (according to Linspire who have already fought MS to a standstill in court once, and therefore evidently have a bigger legal department than we do):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libdvdcss

[AlbcAlbrr]

I guess the points that I was trying to make got a little obscured. In the realm of DVD decryption a teenager in Norway and a software company in the the USA have been dragged into court. Both of those incidents were driven by the movie industry. Although times and attitudes do change, history also has a tendency to repeat. When you get too much attention on your ability to circumvent movie copy protection, then the movie industry may decide to come after you.

I actually heard MTR mentioned as a DVD backup program on a very large Los Angeles based radio station. As the Apple market share increases, so will the use of MTR. It seems like it is only a matter of time before Hollywood will focus its sights on MTR. Maybe it won't.

Whether it happens or not, the threat is still always present. That threat hangs over Geezerbuttz, not the rest of us. Besides, MTR is his baby, and he gets to makes the rules. Those that don't like his rules, should find a different program to use.

[Booger]

Guys,

Great to see all the interest and variety of opinions... it's nice to hear that we all value the MTR util without question. Many interesting ideas have been shared, however...

Put yourself in Geezer's shoes for a moment...
If you're just a "one man show" and don't have the luxury of hiding behind a corporation would you be willing to stick your neck out and blatantly make it payware with a "send $ directly to me approach"?

If the MPAA or other authorities were to come after YOU (as an individual) you'd have to hire an attorney (there goes all the $ you've earned from it as well as, probably, your savings) and you'll possibly face jail time. Either way, odds are you're going to get hurt financially.
If you were a corporation, they could (and probably would) shut you down - very unlikely you'd do a day of jail time (and you'd still have your personal savings, etc.).
You know the MPAA would love nothing better than to see MTR stopped.

I don't know about you guys, but I for one would not be willing to stick my neck out like that. I doubt you'd realistically gross more than $10,000-$100,000 selling it as payware anyways (remember this kind of software would most certainly be pirated like crazy). Just not enought upside imho.

So, you're certainly entitled to your view - but maybe you might considering cutting the guy some slack. After all, it sure is a heck of a lot easier saying "you should do this" when it's not your butt on the line (with the possiblity of legal attacks and jail time).

Yeah maybe Geez is grumpy sometimes or maybe you might think he whines about money woes - but hey, how would you feel if you spent hundreds or thousands of hours making something that everyone tells you "thanks a lot - it's terrific" but fewer than 2% of the total downloaders actually send you any money? Kinda disheartening wouldn't you agree?

So, Obviously the "honor system" (donationware) doesn't work (if only 2% are paying for it). Retail payware is not a good idea (too much downside/liability). I guess the idea that they're tossing around now is kind of a cross between the two: crippleware. MTR would still be freeware, but you'd need to send a donation to get a code to unlock the cool features (if done well, this way should increase the % of payers). Let's not split hairs here over that being payware or not - it just seems to be the most logical hybrid.

Bottom line is: It shouldn't matter to us how they decide to handle the distribution/payment for MTR in the future... just continue to use it, enjoy it, and send the guy some $.

Don't forget... Blu-Ray (or whatever the industry settles on) is coming very soon - and we're going to need someone to crack the protection so us knuckle heads can be back here noodling over the insignificance of "how" to send payment to a guy that's busted his stones to produce software for us so we can dupe 250GB+ dvd's, etc.!!!

Let's just do our best to keep guys like Geez happy so he won't have the taste of sour grapes in his mouth when we need to call on him for something like this in the future.

You guys are great - you've all donated $. Let's encourage others to do the same.

Just my 2¢, cheers!

PS: Very well said AlbcAlbrr (in the post above this). Good on ya, mate!

[thoughton]

Yeah maybe Geez is grumpy sometimes

Sometimes? :P

[thoughton]

So, Obviously the "honor system" (donationware) doesn't work (if only 2% are paying for it). Retail payware is not a good idea (too much downside/liability). I guess the idea that they're tossing around now is kind of a cross between the two: crippleware. MTR would still be freeware, but you'd need to send a donation to get a code to unlock the cool features (if done well, this way should increase the % of payers). Let's not split hairs here over that being payware or not - it just seems to be the most logical hybrid.

This is what we are bitching about! Call it whatever the hell you want, crippleware, donationware, shareware. If he's making money off it, he is 'selling' it as far as the law is concerned.

How do you think the IRS would react if Apple suddenly announced they were no longer selling computers, but instead giving them away, but only to people who 'donated' US$2000. Do you think the IRS would be happy to call them a non-profit organisation and slash their taxes?

[stniuk]

Don't take this the wrong way but is this Geezers' full time occupation?
I know software development is time consuming but I was under the impression that this was a part time thing.
To cut down the workload he could try and get other programmers on board, maybe put the project on sourceforge
He could also keep web costs down by distributing via torrent.

[tWoSour]

Here's a little history for you:

[i]"Jon Lech Johansen (born November 18, 1983)

ok, thats just freaky, cause thats when I was born....day and year

wierd............

[maetel99]

You guys seem to be forgetting recent history, namely what happened to the equivalent Windows program DVD Decrypter just a few months ago.

Again, this fellow (based in the UK) was taking donations via PayPal, and he got sued and shut down. Here is his statement. He says he is now legally restricted from working on anything related to his program.

I think Geezerbuttz is just going to have to accept that a program like MTR is a labor of love, and he will never be able to make money on it unless he wants to move to Norway or another country where it is legal.

The best thing is for more and more people to write programs like this and distribute them as widely as possible so that the likelihood of getting sued drops.

[MikieV]

You guys seem to be forgetting recent history, namely what happened to the equivalent Windows program DVD Decrypter just a few months ago.

I was thinking the same thing. Also Cnet's recent story about the CAFTA treaty including a little-noticed requirement for those countries to adopt the DCMA:

"Once it takes effect, CAFTA will require Costa Rica, the Dominican Republic, El Salvador, Guatemala, Honduras and Nicaragua to mirror the Digital Millennium Copyright Act's broad prohibition on bypassing copy-protection technology."

Uncle Sam can put pressure on other countries to harass "criminals". DVD Jon was aquitted, but they still took him to court - twice. Not a fun way to spend your spare time.

[geezerbuttz]

And you wonder why I dont give assistance to this site anymore ?

just look at the crap I have to deal with....


I spend 6 months making sure the app copes with just about anything , nearly put myself in shit , and YOU have the nerve to moan ?

Its very simple....

If you dont like the way I do things , feel free to use another application.

And if you have already donated ( before ) then i have your name , and you will have a release of 3.0 mailed to you.

I figured that its time to look after the people who helped me out of a bad situation , so to give them the new version , while the others remained a 2.66 , was the best way.

But It seems that whatever I do , there are the same few people who are NEVER happy , and just need to moan about everything.

Like I said , you wonder why I dont frequent this place anymore.

And troughton , maybe you should read the thread again... I called the people who constantly rely on the SAME people to donate , the leechers.

And as for "western Union Money Transfers" have you never heard how they can open to fraud, no , obviously not , so i will get off my fat arse , when YOU take your fat head out of yours !

get your facts right angry man.....

[geezerbuttz]

This shows how little you know...

However Geezer is too worried about prosecution (presumably by the Swiss authorities, unless he thinks he might be extradited) to charge money for his app, so he would like to get around it by soliciting donations.

extradited ? this is my home , you cant extradite someone from their home.

Please! make some sence!

[thoughton]

This shows how little you know...

However Geezer is too worried about prosecution (presumably by the Swiss authorities, unless he thinks he might be extradited) to charge money for his app, so he would like to get around it by soliciting donations.

extradited ? this is my home , you cant extradite someone from their home.

Please! make some sence!

You should do a little research before you spout uninformed opinions.

Try a simple goole search on the word "extradited". The number two result is this:
http://www.baltictimes.com/hot1.php?art_id=13033

It's about a Latvian national who was extradited, FROM LATVIA, to the UK

[geezerbuttz]

uninformed opinions....

your whole rant is based on that.


you are under informed , and over opinionated.

if you dont like what I do , go somewhere else.

GB

[terryj]

Still, GB, you shoulda shared with your first family too...
heck, friend, I only found out about your dire straits
Last TUESDAY. and for why i don't frequent the ripdiffrent site and only stay here...well, I'm kinda busy here,
so I don't get out as much....

So for donating for the DVD drive ( I still have the thank you email from WW) does that put me in the donator category?
Or do I need to donate again? if so, just LMK via PM, and I'll
be glad to help out.

[geezerbuttz]

TJ , if you read what I say ( unlike some on this forum ) you will see that i state " i have ALL paypal stubs , from PAST and PRESENT donators" I will personaly mail the new build out to them.

I state I do not want past donators to re-donate.

Rip Dif has hosted us , so , with reason ,that is the site we are now located at.

As for the release info , what has transpired , is that when i needed some help , its always the same names who assist , and im tired of those few people supporting the non assistors..., you know the " i cant afford to donate because I have just blown all my cash raping the local DVD rental store "

So , i felt i wanted to give something back to the assistors, and by only giving the app to them , im hopefully repaying their kindness in some way.

I mean , if you bought a car for $25,000 and then they gave the guy after you the same car for free , you would feel rightly so , a little irritated.

This is what Im trying to do .. not blackmail as some have suggested, I have a core framework of people who have done nothing but help me , ranging from Donating , to sending me all the new ARccOS discs at thier expense.... Its not right that i give the same app to those who dont want to help , why should I ?

I propose to keep a version on VT that is one whole release from the current donators build.

If someone wants to donate , and get the new build , its up to them , I dont see anyone forcing them to do it.... its thier god given choice.

And to clear up a last point , a donation is for life , As long as I improve the app , the donators will get it.

At the moment its in Beta , but if someone donates , i e-mail them the beta link right away so they can also try the new version out.

So TJ , come over to RipDif , PM ( if you still have them ) the paypal details , and i will send you the link.

And for anybody else who donated before , do the same please....

GB

[thoughton]

I spend 6 months making sure the app copes with just about anything , nearly put myself in shit , and YOU have the nerve to moan ?

Yeah I do. Sorry if that annoys you.

uninformed opinions....

your whole rant is based on that.


you are under informed , and over opinionated.

if you dont like what I do , go somewhere else.

GB

While I would be happy to BUY your great app, I disagree with the way in which you are distributing it (calling it freeware/donationware but having a non-optional 'donation' for MTR3). I also don't like your attitude towards your non-donating users. That is my right.

You obviously disagree with me. That is your right.

You calling me 'over opionated' is quite amusing. Thanks for that.

As far as 'going smewhere else' is concerned, you aren't in any position to say that to me or anyone else on this forum.

Regards,


PS Leave my fat head out of it :P

[geezerbuttz]

and you were not in the position to judge me as a lazy ass.

awwwww .. it would'nt be the same without a fat head in the picture...