Outdoor antenna for HDTV. HD signal...

[mufasa005]

Dear all...

I have just bought a large screen HDTV (built in tuner).

I am trying to find an outdoor compact antenna for it (any suggestions?). I am testing RCA 706, Terk TV55.

Is it correct that the HD signal is an all or none event? (you either receive the best or no signal at all) Do I need to fine tuning the antenna?

Thanks for advance.

[BSpielbauer]

The following is compiled from previous posts I have made, on various forums...

Visit www.antennaweb.org

Register. See what they recommend. BUT...

I now always advise people that anenna.web’s recommendations should automatically by “upgraded” by one level, as I believe they are often a bit optimistic. And, there is usually a definite difference between the reception capability of any antenna located indoors, as opposed to outdoors. The materials in your home will block a lot of that signal. Some homes are much worse than others, regarding this issue (siding on the home, types of shingles, insulation in attics, etc.) There is also a huge difference between the reception for some types of building materials (aluminum siding, versus vinyl siding versus brick versus wood siding). Similarly, metal ductwork, types of shingles, and even insulation can come into play.

Let’s deal with the issue of an amp, first. Amps are sometimes absolutely necessary. But, they are sometimes of no help, and make no difference. And, they sometimes actually make things worse. Confused? Let’s see if we can deal with a tough, confusing subject slowly. The antenna is what it is, in terms of “gain” or reception. It is either capable of picking up a given signal from a particular channel, or it is not. That will not change. No amp can change that, at all. It does not matter if it is an amp which is built into the antenna, like the one you describe, or if it is one purchased separately and added to the mix. If the antenna cannot pick up channel 5, due to its design, or its lack of necessary elements, or its shape, or its location, it quite simply cannot pick up channel 5. Period. So, why are amps sold, at all?

There are those cases where the antenna can “sort of” pick up channel 5, at the antenna. The signal is marginal, but might be fine. It might be fine, that is, if you are sitting up on your roof with a terrific connection from your TV to the leads on the antenna, using a cable which is only 1 ½ inches long, gold plated, and shielded to government National Security Standards. You might never experience any ghosts or interference (if it is analog) or have any dropouts or pixellization (if it is digital), as long as you sit right up there on the roof, in your rooftop recliner, and maintain that solid connection.

But, most of us do not do this. Instead, we string cable. We are on a budget, so we use RG-5 cable, and we like "quick connect plugs," so we use those, even if they are not the weather-resistant type, and we screwed up on the estimates, and cut things too short, so we splice and add extensions, and run 4 or 5 coupled cables 125 feet down the side of the house, in through a hole alongside metal ducting, tie it with twisties next to the conduit which has our electric, and that signal is fading, and fading, and diminishing, and dwindling, until we finally see nothing on our TV in our family room. We decide to splice it to use in two rooms, or three, which makes it even worse. THIS is where an amp may help. It will take that signal which was only marginal but good enough, and amplify it close to the antenna, so it is much STRONGER as it begins to travel down the path we have built for it, with all of its obstacles.

There are many cases where it makes things worse -- the signal was already VERY strong, and our cable runs are close to ideal, in length and quality and design. That amplifier will take a _strong_ signal and jack it up so any slight flaws due to interference (airplanes, weather, signal bounce, etc.) are now pronounced as all get-out, and we find ourselves looking at extra “noise” in our video picture. We see lines of interference, often horizontal, scrolling up our set.

Just because you unplugged or shut off the amp, and noticed deteriorated reception, do not assume that you will need an amplified antenna in order to get the Chicago stations. It may be that the antenna you have has a polarity problem if the amp is off, for example. Some models do. In such cases, turning off the amp can cause the antenna to actually REJECT most reception, making it worse than no antenna at all (!)

HERE is a list of what I have been able to learn so far about antennas...

1.) I suggest you search around, as there is a lot of discussion on this issue on the home theater forums. I know that I have written everything I know on this topic in the recent past, and I have also seen others offer lots of even better guidance on this topic.

2.) As a generality, avoid antennas which attach to the outer edges of your sat dish. They are not very good. If your situation is ideal, they may work, and if this is the case, you should ignore my advice. If it is NOT ideal (which it sounds as if may be your case), it will not work.

3.) As a generality, avoid antennas which do not look like antennas. If it resembles a flying saucer, or a frisbee, or a space-age bat-wing, it is probably junk. Most of them are not very good. If your situation is ideal, they may work, and if this is the case, you should ignore my advice. If not, avoid them. Hint: One company which makes a LOT of these antennas has a name which begins with a “T” and ends with a “erk.” Avoid them. Their antennas are infamous all over the world of home theater as “junk, pure and simple.”
Do NOT buy a box which says “Terk.”

And, whatever you do, I always recommend that you avoid the models which attach to a satellite dish. They are among the worst, at reception. I have read this again, and again, and again, from people who tried them, and experienced awful results. This is actually common sense, for those who know antenna design, since the shape alone dooms it to being awful. It has no long thin straight elements mounted horizontally, angled toward the signal (which is ideal for VHF). It has no short, stubby, palm-like elements, of varying widths and lengths (which is ideal for UHF). It will make the wife happy, since it hides. However, you could do as well with a piece of coaxial cable, or your twisted coat hanger from your closet, I suspect.

4.) As several replies above suggested, you should go to www.antennaweb.org and do a thorough job here. Print out the choices of channels. Note the type of antenna they recommend, but only use this as a starting point. Up it one category. Notice especially if all of the channels you will want to see are in the same area, or if the antennas are "oriented" in the same direction. (Did you find the map which shows the relative compass-locations of each and every channel, so you can see if they are all close to each other, or very spread out? What did it report?) This will determine whether you will need a rotor. Notice also if all the stations you want to watch are UHF (higher than channel 13), or whether any of them are VHF (channels 2 through 13). This will guide your purchase, right up front.

I believe that antennaweb is optimistic since it does not assume that we might have trees, or a cellular tower nearby, or any of the other hundred condidtions which can change things.

5.) Pray you, avoid Terk. Avoid them like the plague.

6.) Pay attention to how far you are from the antennas. Also, pay attention to your local terrain. Is it fairly flat? Hilly? Mountainous? Urban? Do you have skyscrapers near? 4-story buildings? 3-story buildings? Lots of hills and valleys? If so, where are YOU? Any mountains?

Remember that television transmission depends upon "line of sight," between you and the actual broadcast antenna. Also, remember that radio and television (RF) waves can easily "bounce," which means you can sometimes get two identical signals coming in, one being the real one, and the other a mere reflection. This "multi-path" due to bouncing can cause the real one to be degraded, or even cause it to become "lost" altogether.

7.) General rule: with antennas, the higher, the better. So, an indoor set-top antenna inside next to a window on the second floor will usually fare better than the same set top antenna inside close to a window on the first floor. An antenna on a one-story roof will not usually do as well as the same antenna on a two-story roof.


8.) General rule: For an outdoor VHF antenna, the ones that look like the "big, ugly rakes" of the 1960s are actually the better ones. The LARGEST of those long, thin elements are the ones made to tune in and receive the low VHF channels (channels 2 and 3 and 4). The ideal element for channel 2 is one which is 92 to 96 inches long, as a wingspan (!)

9.) Do not buy anything which says "Terk."

10.) General rule: UHF antennas differ in appearance. They do not have to look like big, ugly rakes.

11.) If you need a combination, (UHF/VHF) get a combination. This will often look like the big, ugly rake above in number 7, with an attached smaller stubby array of elements sitting out in front of the arrowhead arrangement.

12.) General rule: Avoid any antenna which has the name "Terk" on the box (uh-oh, I smell a lawsuit coming).

13.) General rule: Channelmaster and Winegard both know what they are doing, and they make quality antennas. Buy from them, but first visit the web sites of their dealers (do a search) and read carefully the advice. The reason they make so many models is because the ones that works for ME will probably not work for YOU. They make quality indoor and outdoor ones.

14.) General rule: Radio Shacks are the best if you are on a budget. Best bang for the buck. They make models which receive as well as the Channelmasters and the Winegards. They are not built out of as strong of materials, so an element is more prone to move and sway and even finally bend in high, high winds. But, they receive fine.

15.) Terk is bad. As a general rule.

16.) A tower install is probably the best, and the higher the better. Next, is a rooftop install, which often can be 95% or 98% as good. An attic install is not NEAR as good, as it typically loses about 50% in reception potential, in most cases. Let me repeat that: An attic install is not NEAR as good, as it typically loses about 50% in reception potential, in most cases. (But, if it gets you all the stations you want, who cares!)
And, finally, a small indoor set-top antenna is the worst, as it usually gets a slight reduction from the attic install. (But, if it gets you all the stations you want, who cares!) The biggest jump here is definitely going from rooftop to attic, in most cases. That is where one often loses 50 percent of the reception capability.

17.) There is no such thing as an HDTV antenna. Even if it says this on the box. Even if the salesman tells you he "knows it is true, since Mark Cuban himself told him so." There are people using a 1957 rooftop antenna to pick up the high definition signal for their local CBS station, and it looks every bit as clear as if they had spent $450 on the most expensive antenna they could find, mounted on a $2000 tower alongside their home. ALL of the UHF antennas are just as capable of receiving a digital channel as they are at receiving a UHF analog channel. There is no difference, in terms of the reception, or the antenna-design, etc. ALL of the VHF antennas are just as capable of receiving a digital channel as they are at receiving a VHF analog channel. There is no difference, in terms of the reception, or the antenna-design, etc. And, ALL of the combination UHF/VHF antennas are just as capable of receiving a digital channel as they are at receiving a UHF or VHF analog channel. There is no difference, in terms of the reception, or the antenna-design, etc.
In other words, it is pure marketing hogwash. It is much like saying that the garage in front of your home is "electric car-ready," now that there are a few models of electric autos on the road. Ignore this, and shop for the best.

18.) Try not to yield to the Best Buy guy who tries to sell you a Terk.

19.) The best small, settop antennas are: the Zenith Silver Sensor, and the Radio Shack double bow tie. Or, a newer model which is getting terrific reviews is the "Square Shooter." But, all of these are UHF-only. If you need to receive any VHF channels, do not buy one. Instead, look for a model which might resemble rabbit ears, for the VHF, with an attached stubby array for the UHF, or sometimes an attached circle for the UHF.

20.) The best attic antennas are also the best outdoor antennas. But, you probably should “bump” the category up yet another notch, as soon as you go inside, since you can expect about a 50% loss in gain, on average.

21.) Oh, yeah, in case I forgot to mention it, avoid Terk.

22.) Try to buy where you can easily return. Make sure you ask. Some places allow this, some specifically do NOT. Some dealers note that an antenna is really tough (or even impossible) to re-pack properly once the elements have been unfolded. This led to some dealers simply refusing to take back ANY antenna. Even the small indoor ones. So, be sure to ask. And, be sure to buy where you can return, so you do not have to keep an item which is not at all functioning in the matter for which you paid for it.

23.) Keep in mind that cabling is absolutely critical. MANY people have blamed an antenna on what turned out to be a bad splice, or a loose connection, or a cheap, chintzy 75 ohm/300 ohm tranbsformer, or too many "splits" and splices between the antenna and the tuner.

Hope something here is of some help,

-Bruce

P.S. Wow! I almost screwed up, as I nearly forgot... do not buy a Terk.

[BSpielbauer]

Is it correct that the HD signal is an all or none event? (you either receive the best or no signal at all) Do I need to fine tuning the antenna?

Thanks for advance.

Yes, it is a true statement, but it is also an easily misunderstood statement.

What this means is that if you can get the signal, you will not see any "ghosting" or any of the video noise associated with lousy reception, or with "marginal reception."

BUT, it does not necessarily mean that you will see a signal 100% of the time, every day, 24/7. The signal can "drop out," if the weather causes this, or an aircraft interferes. Often such a dropout is preceded by some "macroblocking" or "pixellization" as your equipment siezes upon the last image it "saw." Then, it may just go completely "blank."

I have one station which is operating at very low power, and because I live 30 miles from their tower, I have on occasion "lost" their signal. When it is there, it looks as good as the other channels, which are easy to see. But, when the storms come, I often see minor pixellization due to the signal fluctuating between "there" and "gone." Then, finally, I may lose the signal entirely, until the storm passes.

Hope that is clear...

-Bruce in Chi-Town

[SLK001]

@ BSpielbauer,

Did you forget to mention that Terk antennas are junk?

[gshelley61]

Check these guys out... they build some great performing UHF antennas:

http://www.antennasdirect.com/

Also, Winegard and ChannelMaster antennas are generally very good to excellent, with several quality levels to choose from. They make antennas of many sizes and shapes for virtually every situation.

[Soopafresh]

Question - When all US broadcasters move to Digital, won't it be important to have good reception for VHF as well ?

[gshelley61]

In some markets (like where I live, for example) the broadcast stations will eventually return to their original VHF frquency, transmitting digitally. For now, they are transmitting their digital signals over UHF. This will take many years, though. I won't need to wory about getting a VHF antenna anytime soon.

[edDV]

In some markets (like where I live, for example) the broadcast stations will eventually return to their original VHF frquency, transmitting digitally. For now, they are transmitting their digital signals over UHF. This will take many years, though. I won't need to wory about getting a VHF antenna anytime soon.

True, major metro markets will be mostly to all UHF. In rural areas that have less spectrum competition, DTV will share the upper VHS band. The original plan was to move everything to UHF but experience has shown that distant reception is not adequate in upper UHF. In rural areas, expect to see UHF and upper VHF local repeat transmitters to fill in dead reception zones.

[edDV]

The following is compiled from previous posts I have made, on various forums...

...

Great advice, the only things I can add are ...

Local geographic conditions can affect reception. Best places to get good info on local conditions are forum sites like www.avs.com and google groups that have dedicated OTA , cable and sat forums for most individual markets.

Local example: Sacramento, CA has 50mi. line of sight to Sutro Tower in San Francisco but few get DTV reception during winter due to thick ground fog conditions. People on the same radial up in the Sierra Mountains at 3500 Ft elevation get San Francisco year round even at 90-120 mi distance.

Using these sites, you can hear all the hard luck stories and solutions before you make the same mistakes.

Another observation, local antenna store salesmen are generally clueless about local DTV reception.

[mufasa005]

Dear all...

If the follwoing statement is true:
(quote from "http://www.antennasdirect.com/HDTV_review.html")

"With HDTV it is important to note that reception is an all or nothing proposition. Since you will be receiving a digital signal it will be either a perfect picture or a blank screen".

Why does type of the antenna matters? Can we than assume:

Quality of the antenna only determines how many HD channels one is able to receive. It will NOT affect the picture quality.

Is this right???

Thanks in advance.

[edDV]

Sort of. HDTV is a subset of DTV. There is nothing specific to HDTV for that statement vs. SDTV over digital channels.

The import of that statement is especially true when pointing your antenna. You need to know were to point to get distant stations. A few degrees can make all the difference.

Use the wrong type of antenna for local conditions and you will get no HDTV channels (e.g. VHF vs UHF). Point a directional antenna in the wrong direction and you will get no channels.

If you live behind a hill you may get no channels.

Did you get a list of your channels from antennaweb?
Antennaweb and TitanTV use topographic (gound contour) data to predict reception by street address.

Read above and ask more specific questions.

[edDV]

Dear all...

I have just bought a large screen HDTV (built in tuner).

I am trying to find an outdoor compact antenna for it (any suggestions?). I am testing RCA 706, Terk TV55.

Is it correct that the HD signal is an all or none event? (you either receive the best or no signal at all) Do I need to fine tuning the antenna?

Thanks for advance.

Are you sure your "built in tuner" is a DTV tuner?
What do you mean by fine tuning the antenna?

[Richard_G]

"With HDTV it is important to note that reception is an all or nothing proposition. Since you will be receiving a digital signal it will be either a perfect picture or a blank screen".

Why does type of the antenna matters? Can we than assume:

Quality of the antenna only determines how many HD channels one is able to receive. It will NOT affect the picture quality.

Is this right???

No.

Crap antenna = insufficient signal level = no picture
Good antenna = sufficient signal level = perfect picture

Being in the UK where digital TV broadcasting has been around for about 5 years, we've been there and had all the problems. The Gvernment body responsible for assisting in curing interference problems have even produced a small book on the subject. http://www.ofcom.org.uk/advice/ifv/tv_radio_recpn_guide.pdf