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Poll: if you were terri schiavo would you want to be kept alive artificially?

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  1. Member lumis's Avatar
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    if you were terri schiavo would you want to be kept alive artificially?

    lets not make this political, just a simple poll question.
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  2. Banned
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    NO!!!!!!
    No matter who you are.. if it's time to go... it's time to go!!!!!!!!!
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  3. In the Sydney Morning Herald, it was reported that a poll done in the US showed about 60% of people supported the position of letting her die, 20% supported the position of keeping her alive with the remained undecided.

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    i think that if she had a chance to ever be normal again, then yes, she should be kept alive. but all of her doctors have said that her brain is too damaged to ever be normal again, and that she will be like this for the rest of her life. so i do not think she should be kept alive.
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  5. Video Restorer lordsmurf's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by vitualis
    In the Sydney Morning Herald, it was reported that a poll done in the US showed about 60% of people supported the position of letting her die, 20% supported the position of keeping her alive with the remained undecided.

    Regards.
    This about matches polls I saw here too.
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  6. I'd say I don't know... no way to know what that state of consciousness would be like.

    If it was a state of oblivion, I think the answer for me would be "I don't care one way or the other." Let other people decide. If they want to cling to memories and my living form, let 'em... if they want to let me go, let 'em...
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  7. I think she should be allowed to die, but not from starving to death.
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  8. Video Restorer lordsmurf's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Craig Tucker
    I think she should be allowed to die, but not from starving to death.
    It's not really starving in the means by which you and I think of starving. It's not like her stomach's going to start growling. They're feeding nutrients into her bloodstream, as I understand it. A doctor can feel free to correct me, but that's the brief thing I saw on tv earlier. All this "starving" stuff is mostly just propaganda.
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  9. Member AlecWest's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by lumis
    if you were terri schiavo would you want to be kept alive artificially?
    If I were in her shoes, yes. I think "right-to-die" issues are valid. But, in adults, I think it should be mandatory to have such wishes spelled out in writing in a living-will ... none of this, "Well, she told me this and told me that ..." stuff. This is especially true if, as in Schiavo's case, the person asking for the plug to be pulled is in a relationship with another woman and possibly has a life insurance policy he might want to collect on.

    In my own case, such issues would depend on one thing. If I was in intractible pain that could not be controlled by drugs, I'd probably want the plug pulled. But, if I was in a coma ... or even in a "persistent vegetative state" (whatever that is) ... I'd want the exact opposite. In that case, if all the stars in the universe were "chances" and I only had one chance out of all of those chances to recover, I'd want that chance!
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  10. I would imagine that she is getting PEG feeds (i.e., a plastic tube that goes through her abdominal wall into her stomach so that water and liquid food can be given).

    So yes, she would be "starved" in a sense.

    However, it isn't the gruesome death most people make it out to be. Firstly, it is extremely unlikely that she would "feel" any sort of discomfort. In addition, the natural progression would be she would go into renal failure and slip into a coma days before she would actually die.

    Let us keep this in perspective. She is not dying from "starvation". She is dying from the brain injury she suffered a decade and a half ago.

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  11. Originally Posted by AlecWest
    But, in adults, I think it should be mandatory to have such wishes spelled out in writing in a living-will ... none of this, "Well, she told me this and told me that ..." stuff. This is especially true if, as in Schiavo's case, the person asking for the plug to be pulled is in a relationship with another woman and possibly has a life insurance policy he might want to collect on.
    The are multiple problems with this. I don't know about the US, but in Australia, there is no enforceable legality to a "living will". In this particular case, even if Terri wrote a living will stating that she didn't want to be kept alive in such a situation but the parents demand that she be kept alive, the "living will" would not have much standing.

    Secondly, you are talking about a potential conflict of interest which is true, but an unavoidable fact of nature. Does the existence of a conflict of interest automatically mean that the ex-husband isn't really expressing Terri's true wishes? No.

    Which is why this case has already gone to court multiple times. The decisions of those previous cases should be respected. You cannot tell me that the impulse decisions of politicians in Congress are better considered into terms of respecting Terri's wishes than the previous decisions of the courts.

    But, if I was in a coma ... or even in a "persistent vegetative state" (whatever that is) ... I'd want the exact opposite. In that case, if all the stars in the universe were "chances" and I only had one chance out of all of those chances to recover, I'd want that chance!
    It is understandable that some people would feel that way. Some people when they go to hospital expect that they are the most important person and thus should have priority for all investigations and treatment too. Unfortunately, health resources are not limitless. If you have the money, then buy yourself the insurance and lawyers that will make sure that no one will "pull the plug" on you (building your own personal ICU would be a good idea). For the rest of us, we have to live within the limits of what is reasonable.

    If you were in a persistent vegetative state after extensive hypoxic brain injury with no chance of recovery (e.g., you've been a "vegetable" for over a year) and require acute medical resources to keep your body alive, is it fair to everybody else who needs the health system?

    There are many doctors including myself who do not think that "living wills" or "advanced directives" are necessarily a good idea. Firstly, there is an expectation that such a system would solve current ethical and medicolegal dilemmas. They won't. Unfortunately, when comes right down to it, the time when you need such mechanisms in place are also the times when you are no longer capable of putting forward your CURRENT opinion... and there are always situations that will not be forseeable or entirely applicable to the terms in an advanced directive.

    Secondly, the ethical dilemma remains. Many people would probably agree to advanced directives to not resuscitate but do most laypeople actually know what that means when they are not in the situation? Most people don't actually appreciate the magnitude of the decision until it gets close to home (e.g., a relative in the situtation). For example, if you were young and suffered a severe illness (e.g., meningococcal meningitis), no doctor would hesitate to aggressively resuscitate you even in apparently hopeless situations simply because some people WILL come back. An advanced directive would be a significant complication (i.e., leading to worsened outcomes) unless it were so limited in its scope to be essentially meaningless.

    Ultimately, the most appropriate management in each situation is not archetypical and really depends on the clinical situation. A decision is best made through a collaborative process between the treating team and family and decisions AGAINST family wishes should only be needed when they are clearly in conflict with the best interests of the patient (e.g., family wanting a patient to die who is clearly treatable) or are deemed clinical unreasonable (e.g., keeping brain dead patient hooked up to machinery to keep the body alive).

    The best "advanced directive" I believe is for people to speak to their family or "significant others" about such issues so that THEY know how you think and feel about these issues. If such a time comes when it becomes applicable, the treating team can get consensus about what a person would have wanted in the particular situation. Although it may seem (and probably in this situation) that a piece of paper with Terri's thoughts on it would have been very helpful, widespread use of advanced directives or living wills will probably cause more problems than they solve.

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    Michael Tam
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  12. Member AlecWest's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by vitualis
    Does the existence of a conflict of interest automatically mean that the ex-husband isn't really expressing Terri's true wishes? No.
    But it doesn't mean he IS expressing Terri's true wishes either. The only person who really knows what those true wishes were is Terri herself ... and she's not talking.

    Which is why this case has already gone to court multiple times. The decisions of those previous cases should be respected. You cannot tell me that the impulse decisions of politicians in Congress are better considered into terms of respecting Terri's wishes than the previous decisions of the courts.
    But you cannot tell me that the multiple decisions of judges are representative of Terri's wishes either. I honestly don't know to what extent a "living will" is granted legal authority in the U.S. Perhaps a lawyer here could chime in on this. But if it has no legal force, it should have (just my opinion).

    If you were in a persistent vegetative state after extensive hypoxic brain injury with no chance of recovery (e.g., you've been a "vegetable" for over a year) and require acute medical resources to keep your body alive, is it fair to everybody else who needs the health system?
    No, it would not be fair. It would be very selfish. But, I admit that if my life was at stake, I'd be pretty selfish. Especially since the term "no chance" is only an opinion.
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  13. Member AlecWest's Avatar
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    This is from a paper titled, "Responding to Patients in the Persistent Vegetative State" by D. P. O'mathuna, PhD. One note ... "MSTF" is an acronym for Multi-Society Task Force and "PVS" is an acronym for Persistent Vegetative State:
    A patient's prognosis must be considered when choosing medical therapies. According to the MSTF, there is no effective treatment available to reverse PVS. The chances of spontaneous recovery depend on the cause of PVS and the age of the patient. There is currently no hope for recovery from degenerative diseases (like Alzeimher's) or developmental abnormalities (like anencephaly). However, when PVS in adults was caused by a traumatic injury (e.g. traffic accident), one year later, 33% had died, 15% remained in PVS and 52% recovered consciousness. Of those who recovered consciousness, 54% had severe disability, 33% had moderate disability and 13% had a good recovery.
    ...and...
    These statistics show that a significant number of people recover from PVS within a year after injury. However, the chances of recovery are much lower after longer periods in PVS. Therefore, the MSTF concluded that PVS should be considered permanent 12 months after a traumatic injury, or three months after a nontraumatic injury. However, a few cases of dramatic recovery after extended periods are well documented. One patient recovered after three years in PVS, to the point of being alert and well-oriented.
    I'm not mentioning these quotes to justify anything. Terri should still have a right to die in such a state if it is her wish to do so. But, I've always been bothered by the term "no chance." And I imagine the parents of Sarah Scantlin feel the same way. FWIW, the bibliographic reference to the last quote is:
    K. Higashi et al., "Five-year follow-up Study of Patients with Persistent Vegetative State," Journal of Neurology, Neurosurgery, and Psychiatry 44 (1981): 552-4
    I'm assuming there have been some medical advances since 1981 in dealing with PVS. But, I could be wrong.
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  14. Polls don't mean sh*t. Nobody here counts. Nobody here is Terri Schiavo. Nobody knows what she wants. Maybe 99% of people would rather die. You included. There is still that 1% that wish to live. Her own parents that brought her into this world aren't ready to take her out of it. Just some man she once married. Newsflash, he's moved on and had 2 kids with another woman.
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  15. Member shelbyGT's Avatar
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    That doesn't mean he doesn't still know her better than her parents. It's quite possible. And newsflash: how many times has this been in court and it's still been sided with him?
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  16. Newsflash: none of those judges ever even met Terri Schiavo
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  17. Member AlecWest's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by shelbyGT
    That doesn't mean he doesn't still know her better than her parents. It's quite possible. And newsflash: how many times has this been in court and it's still been sided with him?
    Just for argument's sake (and this is turning into an argument), let's reverse the roles. Let's say that Terri's parents wanted the plug pulled but Terri's (ahem) husband did not. That wouldn't mean they knew her better than her husband. And I suspect the reason judges have sided with the husband so far is because of that slender piece of paper calling him Terri's husband ... even though he's long-since abandoned that role. I wonder what judges would say if he'd divorced Terri ... and if that slender piece of paper called a "marriage license" was no longer a factor.

    Right now, this case could be referred to as Parents vs. Husband. But how would those judges have ruled if it was Parents vs. Ex-Husband? And currently, is Terri's spouse behaving more like a husband or more like an ex-husband? I just hope my life isn't held in the balance based on some legal technicality.
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  18. Member shelbyGT's Avatar
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    Newsflash: even if they met her they'd see a person unresponsive to the world around her. I'm sure they've gone over enough video footage to get a glimpse of what her life is like.

    And for argument sake: I still side with the spouse. Yes, he has "moved on" as you eloquently put it. However, that doesn't necessarily degrade his love for Terri. It wasn't his choice that she had a heart attack and is now debilitated. He can still love her with the same passion as before. Knowing her and her wishes, he should be allowed to do what he is doing. Moving on with his life and continuing to try and be happy is in no way disrespectful of her. Do you not think that Terri would want her husband to continue living and to be happy if she were gone?
    Well, for all intents and purposes she is gone, and he continues to try and do what he believes is right by her as well as "moving on".

    IMHO, If I pass away before my wife, I would want her to remember me, but not to get held up on me to the point where she couldn't love again. I would love for her to get remarried and to continue on with life.

    It's opinions and how you read into the situation, that's all it is.
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    I completely trust that my wife would make the right decision if this would ever happen to me. I don't see the husbands want to end his wife's suffering as being selfish, I see her parents clinging to an empty vessel that looks like their daughter as being selfish. I can't imagine what he must have gone through. I imagine this decision didn't come lightly. You don't marry a person with the intention of losing them to an awful tragedy such as this (not everyone at least). I think what really makes it difficult in the eyes of the parents and in the eyes of public is that she appears to be responsive because she is "conscious". I don't think this would have been as much of an issue if she was in a unconscious vegetative state. Man, life can suck sometimes.
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  20. Member shelbyGT's Avatar
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    Man, life can suck sometimes
    Totally agree there.
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  21. Member housepig's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by HatchetMan
    Her own parents that brought her into this world aren't ready to take her out of it. Just some man she once married.
    "some man she once married" as an adult, making a choice as an adult, and knowing that, legally, his decisions will trump that of her parents in the event of a medical emergency... at least until something in this case becomes precedent.

    so she gets to make adult choices, until her parents don't like them, and then they get the final word? how does that work?

    I find it interesting that many of the same people* who came down on the side of "protecting the sanctity of marraige" in referendums this past voting season are ready to invade that sanctity and it's responsibilities now...

    (* specifically NOT including HatchetMan in this group, as I don't know his stance).

    as to the whole insurance issue - someone offered the husband $1,000,000 to *not* pull the plug, and he declined - do you think he's in line to get a million from a life insurance policy?
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  22. Member AlecWest's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by housepig
    as to the whole insurance issue - someone offered the husband $1,000,000 to *not* pull the plug, and he declined - do you think he's in line to get a million from a life insurance policy?
    Some lawyers think it might be more. He's already collected $1.3 million in a malpractice award, none of which (according to one columnist) was put toward Terri's care. And no insurance company is going to release private settlement information unless they want to risk a lawsuit themselves.

    Another unknown ... just like Terri's take on all this.
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  23. Aging Slowly Bodyslide's Avatar
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    NO...
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    Bodyslide: did you actually vote No?

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  25. Member AlecWest's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Ma_Jie
    Bodyslide: did you actually vote No?

    - Jie
    Well, I know I'm the only one who voted 'yes'.
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  26. Member housepig's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by AlecWest
    Some lawyers think it might be more. He's already collected $1.3 million in a malpractice award, none of which (according to one columnist) was put toward Terri's care. And no insurance company is going to release private settlement information unless they want to risk a lawsuit themselves.
    but life insurance is not like a malpractice settlement - it's not a settlement at all. if I buy $100,000 worth of life insurance, I get $100K when I die - it's not negotiable.

    and I doubt that you'd be able to purchase life insurance for someone who's in a permanent vegetative state - so are you telling me that she carried $1.3 million in life insurance back in 1986 when she suffered her problems?
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  27. Video Restorer lordsmurf's Avatar
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    How many people here are as open with their parents as they are with their significant other? Not many.
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  28. Member AlecWest's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by housepig
    and I doubt that you'd be able to purchase life insurance for someone who's in a permanent vegetative state - so are you telling me that she carried $1.3 million in life insurance back in 1986 when she suffered her problems?
    I had a million-dollar term policy on myself in '89. And I never suggested he bought the policy "after" she was vegetative.

    But, you might be right. No one knows what his personal finances are. Maybe he doesn't even have a policy on her at all. Or, maybe he has more than one policy on her. My ex-wife had two on me. Hehe, maybe she still does ... and is "hoping" for a change in my condition.
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  29. Member AlecWest's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by lordsmurf
    How many people here are as open with their parents as they are with their significant other? Not many.
    That's a good point. Here's another point. If Terri confided in her husband that she didn't want to be kept alive in a vegetative state, why didn't he act sooner? It's been 15 years since the incident -- and at least two kids ago (by his new woman).
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  30. Member lumis's Avatar
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    i think he was holding out hope for a few years, then it became apparent to him that there was none.. so he wanted to follow what she said his wishes were, then her parents intervened and it went to court. etc. etc..
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