JVC DH40000 DVHS --> Panasonic E20 DVD recorder.. ??

[jbenj01]

I've read a couple of threads about TBC's, color correctors, etc., and really don't want to spend more than ~$150-200 max (if necessary at all) to purchase one of these.

All I want to do is xfr some older VHS, VHS home movies and laserdisc material to DVD. Problem is, I'm doing it for friends, family, colleagues, etc.. I just don't want them to look at the end product and say, 'what is this crap?!'..

Would simply hooking up the JVC 40k to my DMR-E20 recorder suffice?? Or is it recommended/advised investing in a full-frame TBC.. or color corrector.. or.. ?? If so, is the Sima SCC Pro ample for this type of job?? Note: I do not know what kind of shape their source material is in and my 'customers' know I'm no professional at this so I don't think they're looking for 'miracles'.. Thanks.

[FulciLives]

The most popular Full Frame TBC devices are as follows:

1.) DataVideo TBC-1000 which is around $300 USD
2.) AVT-8710 which is around $200 USD

Just about all other TBC devices are WAY more expensive.

BTW both of these can be bought from B&H PHOTO/VIDEO

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[lordsmurf]

Panasonic E20 (and E30) DVD recorder in the USA/Canada is bad. It's built to Japanese standards, and makes DVDs that have bad color/contrast/brightness.

Use another recorder. A newer one.

[jbenj01]

OK.. I know you saw this question coming.. bang for buck, which dvd recorder do you recommend that has a decent TBC? A newer Panny? Or.. ?? Thanks in advance.

[lordsmurf]

TBCs found inside recorders usually don't do anything. Waste.

A good DVD recorder would easily be a JVC or a Pioneer. If using VHS source, the JVC, easily the best option.

[robjv1]

I'd like to revisit this topic in a future thread -- but what is so special about the JVC recorder -- from a pure recording quality perspective? I have Lite-On 5005 myself and I'm not entirely impressed with it as far as video quality goes -- I do a lot of VHS transfers with my JVC HR-S7800U and the pixellation on the SP mode (MPEG2, 720X480, 5.1Mpbs) especially on somewhat high motion stuff leaves a little to be desired for my money from. I think this is probably typical of most recorders, but it'd be interesting to see a side by side comparison of different recorders. I've heard iffy reviews of the Panasonics as far as features, but pretty much found them to be universally praised for their recording quality.

[lordsmurf]

Most people don't realize Panasonic has problems because they only use SP mode and they don't understand what quality video is supposed to look like. Many expect blocks/noise in digital video and think it's normal, others think it's great that their video is darker and has "more color" because of it.

LiteOn has limitations because it uses CVBR instead of VBR. That alone will always prevent it from being a better machine, though it's still quite nice. It probably has the strongest anti-noise filters that exist out there, although this can sometime blur high res video. Since most people use these to record off tv, a medium resolution source, they'll never notice.

The JVC suppresses block noise, it maintains the color quality from the source, and it has the ability to remove chroma artifacts from VHS or other analog sources, when errors are present. It's all about the filtering abilities. They are strong enough to remove problems, but not so strong that they deteriorate the source either. You will always end up with a nicer DVD than the video you fed into it. That's enough to make most users smile.

720x480, 5.1Mb/s CVBR is going to not be super hot. The optimal bitrate for 720x480 is closer to 7.0-8.0 and VBR with a max in the 9000s. Lower than that, you compress, and the compression quality depends on the hardware or software encoder and the settings. If you want 100% perfect noise-free video, you'll need to put no more than 1 hour on a disc in 720x480. You can do 3 hours with 352x480, assuming the encoder can do well at that resolution. Herein lies another problem of a Panasonic, among others, is that they cannot do a medium resolution very well. The LSI Logic chipsets DO handle it well, so you'll find JVC, LG, etc as having a very attractive 3-hour mode (FR180 on the JVC).

352x480 with 3 hours of video is in the optimal range. And unless you're using DV/S-VHS/laserdiscas the source, your VHS/tv/whatnot is going to look the same at either Half D1 or Full D1. And I mean S-VHS tapes, not an S-VHS player, not the same thing. A VHS tape still outputs a VHS quality signal, although you can definitely purify it with better equipment (like that JVC 7800).

A forum like this will never allow for a true side-by-side test. Stills are worthless, as you can cherry pick still images. Videos are fine, but the clip needs to be long enough, and it needs to be burned onto a DVD and played on a tv, not viewed on a progressive computer monitor. In other words, test for yourself. I've tested about 20-25 units in the past, and once you start to pick apart the guts of a machine, you can see trends in things like chipsets, VBR/CBR/CVBR, etc. All my tests and research have shown LSI Logic chipsets with VBR as being the highest quality MPEG encoders on the market right now, while Panasonic and Philips in-house chips represent the bottom of the barrel with poor encoders.

You have a few other good ones too, like Pioneer, as well as mid-ground units from Toshiba and Sony. Cirrus, ESS, Renesas, etc.... again, look at the chipsets first, then how the unit utilizes the chipsets (FR? VBR?), and finally how does the machine mechanically stand up. That third one does not control quality necessarily, but it does control how the unit functions. LiteOn tuner hiss, for example, a mechanical/design flaw, affects quality.

Hopefully that sheds some light on things for you.

[robjv1]

Thanks, that's very helpful. I'll have to try out the JVC, as the majority of my VHS transfers are programs around 3 hours long, which I usually spread over two discs in the SP mode using the Lite-On LVW 5005. I'm mostly pleased with it, but as you said, the 5.1MB/s isn't always going to be enough, especially for the high-motion footage. I'm not really pleased with the Lite-On's medium resolution three-and-four hour modes either, so I would like to look at a JVC recorder about that.

I'm looking forward to whenever the dual-layer discs and dual-layer standalone recorders are more affordably priced, as getting two hours in the best mode per disc versus just one would pretty much solve my issue.

Stills aren't going to help very much as you said, you really need to test it out using video on a non-progressive source, but since I don't have the time or money to research this, I'll take your word for it on the VBR MPEG recorders and watch for that more closely in my future purchases.

[SCDVD]

Most people don't realize Panasonic has problems because they only use SP mode and they don't understand what quality video is supposed to look like. Many expect blocks/noise in digital video and think it's normal, others think it's great that their video is darker and has "more color" because of it.

LiteOn has limitations because it uses CVBR instead of VBR. That alone will always prevent it from being a better machine, though it's still quite nice. It probably has the strongest anti-noise filters that exist out there, although this can sometime blur high res video. Since most people use these to record off tv, a medium resolution source, they'll never notice.

The JVC suppresses block noise, it maintains the color quality from the source, and it has the ability to remove chroma artifacts from VHS or other analog sources, when errors are present. It's all about the filtering abilities. They are strong enough to remove problems, but not so strong that they deteriorate the source either. You will always end up with a nicer DVD than the video you fed into it. That's enough to make most users smile.

720x480, 5.1Mb/s CVBR is going to not be super hot. The optimal bitrate for 720x480 is closer to 7.0-8.0 and VBR with a max in the 9000s. Lower than that, you compress, and the compression quality depends on the hardware or software encoder and the settings. If you want 100% perfect noise-free video, you'll need to put no more than 1 hour on a disc in 720x480. You can do 3 hours with 352x480, assuming the encoder can do well at that resolution. Herein lies another problem of a Panasonic, among others, is that they cannot do a medium resolution very well. The LSI Logic chipsets DO handle it well, so you'll find JVC, LG, etc as having a very attractive 3-hour mode (FR180 on the JVC).

352x480 with 3 hours of video is in the optimal range. And unless you're using DV/S-VHS/laserdiscas the source, your VHS/tv/whatnot is going to look the same at either Half D1 or Full D1. And I mean S-VHS tapes, not an S-VHS player, not the same thing. A VHS tape still outputs a VHS quality signal, although you can definitely purify it with better equipment (like that JVC 7800).

A forum like this will never allow for a true side-by-side test. Stills are worthless, as you can cherry pick still images. Videos are fine, but the clip needs to be long enough, and it needs to be burned onto a DVD and played on a tv, not viewed on a progressive computer monitor. In other words, test for yourself. I've tested about 20-25 units in the past, and once you start to pick apart the guts of a machine, you can see trends in things like chipsets, VBR/CBR/CVBR, etc. All my tests and research have shown LSI Logic chipsets with VBR as being the highest quality MPEG encoders on the market right now, while Panasonic and Philips in-house chips represent the bottom of the barrel with poor encoders.

You have a few other good ones too, like Pioneer, as well as mid-ground units from Toshiba and Sony. Cirrus, ESS, Renesas, etc.... again, look at the chipsets first, then how the unit utilizes the chipsets (FR? VBR?), and finally how does the machine mechanically stand up. That third one does not control quality necessarily, but it does control how the unit functions. LiteOn tuner hiss, for example, a mechanical/design flaw, affects quality.

Hopefully that sheds some light on things for you.

This is probably the best post on this subject that has appeared on this forum. LS gives specifc reasons why JVC recorders do a good job. There isn't any of the "I drive a Chevy because my daddy drove a Chevy" stuff. Some posters are more interested in convincing themselves why the recorder they happened to have bought is a good one. But they are really blowing smoke with no factual content in what they say.