are some vhs/other sources uncapturable?

[greymalkin]

crazy thing happened to me the other day. I told a guy I would capture some video's of his nephew and put it on DVD for his grandpa since he enjoyed watching it. When I go to capture it it instantly starts dropping frames and stays around 8% dropped frames using ATI MMC 9.0.0.3. I have an ATI AIW 9000 but I know it isn't the software or the hardware because I can capture TV and other VHS sources with no problem. Something about this video makes it freak out.

From watching it looks like the video was originally shot on a cheap digital camera. it's kind jittery and I'm thinking perhaps this might have something to do with what's causing the errors...so I thought I'd try capturing @ mpeg1 instead of 2 to try and take some of the load off the PC trying to compensate for all the jitters of the video..this didn't work so I tried a straight avi capture..same thing. As stated previously, I'm getting good captures with other vhs sources (home video's as well with their own share of flickers, jerky camera's and whatnot) as well as TV fine. I was only trying to capture @ 352 x 480/ 3.00 mb/s. Are some sources just too hard for the computer to capture? This has me worried about trying to do another project i'm looking at involving 8mm reels.

Also, as a side note..I did get the Audigy 2 Platinum Ex sound card and after installing the latest drivers MMC does not give the latency error when doing the system check. I also have the most up to date drivers/software for my AIW 9000 as well. Any thoughts on this?

thanks

[presto]

There are several threads discussing capture problems with ATI cards just as you describe. ATI cards seem to be overly sensitive to VHS tapes which are slightly out of spec. Others see it as the ATI card falsely detecting macrovision. Do a search for Coalman. He has done the most research on this issue. Unfortunately I don't think there is a solution that doesn't involve getting another card or adding an expensive device.

[thecoalman]

That sounds a little different that the issue I was having. I never had dropped frames. I'm suprised your not having issues such as the infamous white noise across the top of the capture though. Sorry I doubt I can be of much help here, I'm sure someone else can.

Thanks for the credit Presto but there is others here that are much more knowledgeable about the technical reasons, I'm just stubborn.

[lordsmurf]

Your tape is shot. You need a TBC. No way around this one. Pretty much all devices would choke on this tape, given the description. Buying a TBC is inevitable, especially when you start offering services and messing with imperfect sources.

[the * dude]

worth a try if your player has got a sharpness slider, make the picture softer, also fiddle with the tracking too, worth if you've got tearing/ white bits on the top & bot to crop them off too. new videos usually have digital tracking, its time to dust off that top loader & see if it still works!!!!!!!!! 8)

[greymalkin]

smurf,

thanks for the reply. I am really just doing these things as favors to people..but it looks like thats what will have to be done to get this tape captured. Would I run into the same issue with 8mm tapes as well? since they are 'flickery' as well? Thanks for the replies so far!

[thecoalman]

See my page here www.nepadigital.com/mv There's a link to a clip at the bottom from a AIW. If by flickery you mean what you see in the example AIW clip a TBC is the best way to fix it. The flickering can be fixed sometimes with some of the cheaper SIMA products but they probably won't help you with the tape we're discussing now.

[greymalkin]

well apparently my vcr is shot! I tried today with a different vcr I borrowed from a friend. It was a pretty high end sony model and I assume it has higher quality hardware inside there cause it was quite a bit heavier. Anyways..it played the exact same vhs tape smoothly and i was able to capture it with no dropped frames...amazing! Thats what I get for trying to capture with my wal-mart special vcr

[the * dude]

ahh, twas the trackin' !!!!!

[greymalkin]

well my joy was short lived...although I captured the source fine with no dropped frames the sound ends up being WAAAAAY off sync by the end of the 2.5hr video. So apparently the latest driver doesn't fix the audigy 2 problems .

[greymalkin]

now i'm just sad...
As stated above, I now have terrible sync issues that I never had before. The only difference is that I went from an SB Live Plat. 5.1 to an Audigy 2 Ex. I have a vcr connected with the Video cable going to the purple breakout box for my AIW 9000 and 2 rca cables going to the RCA input on the Audigy 2 breakout box (line-in 3). I've been reading through about various syc issues and I heard someone say that a vhs tapes with breaks in it will cause sync issues? They provided a link but it was bad.

Also I have read about altering the latency timing on the sound and video card. Is this a possible solution to the sync problem? Other people have suggested using Virtuadub with the sync to audio feature. The problem with this is even though I have a 200gb additional drive it won't be able to handle this 2.5hr file. Help!

Thank You,
dlv

[thecoalman]

Also I have read about altering the latency timing on the sound and video card. Is this a possible solution to the sync problem? Other people have suggested using Virtuadub with the sync to audio feature. The problem with this is even though I have a 200gb additional drive it won't be able to handle this 2.5hr file. Help!

Thank You,
dlv

Try the soundcard in a different PCI, connect it internally (audio out on the card/aux in on the soundcard).

Why not try capturing your video in chunks without the breaks as opposed to the entire video at once.

For setting up mmc try this site www.digitalfaq.com

[The_Doman]

Also I have read about altering the latency timing on the sound and video card. Is this a possible solution to the sync problem?dlv

The only capture program which works for my (non-DV) captures is the AVI_io. All others gave me severe audio sync errors.
It's worth to try it out!

If the tapes are in really bad shape only some form of a TBC can help.

[greymalkin]

i'll certainly give that at shot. I heard good things about virtualvcr as well i'll try them and see what works for me!
I suppose if I use these other capture programs they probably won't allow me to take advantage of the hybrid hardware/software mpeg2 encoding on my AIW 9000? Will it let me capture straight to mpeg2 at all?

This really stinks..why hasn't ATI incorporated a "sync audio" function into their mmc?

Also, I can't go through the AIW card and use the cable that patches into the "line in" of the sound card because all the line in's are on the external breakout box for the audigy 2. I'd have to use some extender cable which would be super ghetto..but if it works i'd do it. Does the AIW attempt to sync audio/video when it's run through the card?

[greymalkin]

I've seen some other posts where people recommend demuxing the mpeg and somehow it will show the audio being slightly longer than the video then I can shrink it to exactly the size of the video. I would take that as a solution for this one problem but I don't want to have to do this every time I capture...I wrote to ATI asking if they have any plans on implementing a 'sync to audio' feature but they wrote back with a generic response that there is probably something wrong with my computer. how insulting! :P

[presto]

A few days ago I noticed a new program here at Videohelp.com that claimed to allow you to correct sync problems like yours. I forget the name of the program. Look around.

[thecoalman]

wrote to ATI asking if they have any plans on implementing a 'sync to audio' feature but they wrote back with a generic response that there is probably something wrong with my computer. how insulting! :P

There's no such animal as ATI Support it's just your imagination.

[The_Doman]

Indeed , they all should have hired the programmer of AVi_io to avoid all those sync problems. Fixing audio sync errors afterwards is most of the time hopeless and I really don't want to spend my time on that.

The AVI_io programmer gives a good description of the problem and his solution.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
AVI_IO insert's frames to keep synchronization between audio and video, while all other capture tools known to us don't. Such capture tools (as a consequence) may not report any drop's BUT audio and video shifts in such cases if you capture over long periods. We feel that inserting frames (and reporting them as drops) is better than letting audio and video shift, because such shifts are soon noticeable especially if you capture talking people. The reason for such shift's (if they happen at all) is caused by the sound card and/ or video capture card used. If one (or both) of these devices do not keep exactly the frequency requested by you (i.e. 29.97 fps 44100Hz or whatever) audio and video will shift if you capture using a different capture tool. AVI_IO corrects this behavior only if needed giving perfect lip synchronized captures over hours using even unstable (cheap) hardware!!! - The drawback are some reported drops which however should not be noticed during playback.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[lordsmurf]

@greymalkin

Unless you use hardware encoders for both audio+video, it is impossible to "sync" in the method you suggest. At least with certain guarantees.

ATI AIW cards sync fine as is, if using a good codec and good audio card, and assuming something else in the system is not blitzed.

Their answer was probably correct, "insulting" or not. The problem usually lies in your AVI codecs. Is it safe to assume you're not capturing MPEG?

[Sulik]

I would agree with lordsmurf. I've been using AIWs for years, and I've never had a sync issue using MPEG capture (MPEG-1/2 as well as MPEG4).

AVI captures are quite different, because the a/v sync depends on the a/v codecs, hardware and the AVI mux. AVI_IO uses their own AVI mux, whereas almost every other capture app relies on the standard MS AVI mux (ATI also seem to use their own AVI mux for MPEG-4, and that one has no problem with handling proper a/v sync).

If you get sync errors in MPEG capture using ATI MMC, it most likely a bad audio driver.

[vhelp]

On the subject of sync, I would also like to say that it may be all due
to system instability. That can be any number (or combo thereof) of
anything. Motherboard; chipsets; harddrives; DMA; I/O throughputs, etc
etc etc.
.
It might not be the software.
.
Given the above comments already, I think it might not be the software,
but rather the system, somewheres. There is a bottleneck taking place.

If you are having sync issues, it might be due to dropped frames.
Since you said you were using MMC, this app only gives "%" (percentage)
numbers. And if the captured frame count is great, then it will either
show as: Dropped Freames 0 % or 1 %
.
But, on the other hand, you have a beafy system (vs. my XP 1800+ cpu)
and I don't drop frames in my AVI captures, even at 720 x 480 (Huffy;
other Codec; or uncompressed) captures.
.
.. When I say no drops in my captures, I mean NO DROPS. Not,
.. 2 drops in 1 hours capture! Anyways.
.
I used to have issues w/ my captures, when I had a SBLive card. These
cards a known to steal or hog the CPU resources. That cause frame drops.
I have a Santa Cruz (Turbo Beach) card in my system now, and no drops
in frame anymores. But, thats an isolated experience, and my mother
board is different too.

Still, you have a beafy CPU, and I can't see how you can have drops in
your captures w/ it. You must have something off in your setup. And
you have to investigate it.
.
Perhaps, if there is someone else here w/ you motherboard, and card,
they could give you a point-to-point setup

-vhelp 3004

[greymalkin]

you guys are gonna be ticked off at me

I go so flustered when my authored dvd on the HD was out of sync that I totally forgot that...

...the original mpeg2 file that I captured WAS in sync! Or if it was out of sync it wasn't enough to notice! The de-syncing took place somewhere between the trim/stream copy/audio extraction/ac3 compression/authoring!

I'm a doofus! I'm pretty sure I know why it occured as well. Usually when I snip and clip files using mpeg video editor I make sure and save the stream copied file to whatever drive the original file is NOT on. I have 2 WD Raptors in RAID0 and a 200gb Maxtor w/8mb cache. If I capture to the maxtor and then edit in mpeg video editor i usually stream copy back to the raptors and so on and so forth. It seems like this keeps such anomalies from occuring. In this istance I suppose I was in a hurry. So smurf was right again..the problem was between the keyboard and the chair

sometimes if you spend too long working on something without stepping back the solution becomes impossible. this was one such case.


*UPDATE* -
Well I went back and checked the mpeg2 file. It is in sync after capture. It is also in sync after I trim it up, cut some things out of the middle and do a stream copy.

The next thing I do is extract a .wav from the audio track for cleaning up..etc. The length of the .wav file is exactly 2:12.608, the same as the video. From there I compress it to AC3 and author (both with TDA).

So the sync gets lost either when encoding the ac3 or authoring....
This puzzles me also since I just edited that back to the future movie and all of the changed I made put a LOT more load on the pc than this little 352x480 file with a stereo sound track..

things that make ya go hmmmmmm...