Preferences with HD or DV... Why the hype on the XL-2?

[RDM1138]

I've been researching like crazy on these camcorders. The XL-2 is still the choice of most people it seems like. The camera is wicked expensive (comparitively). I found even the Sony HVR-Z1U giving the XL-2 a run for it's money in expense... not by much but still... This is HD vs standard DV. Anyway, my questions are:

1. If you're in the market, wouldn't you want to just go ahead and get the HD? Even though you're target projects/audiences (mostly weddings) are not HD yet.

2. If you record in HD, then capture and post in HD, then author.... can you still watch that DVD on a standard TV?

3. I've narrowed my choices down but am seriously considering going HD... just to keep up but my choices are: Sony HVR-Z1U, Sony HDR-FX1, JVC for HD and for standard the Panasonic DVX-100a or the XL-2.

Thanks for any help on making this decision or even getting some questions answered.

[Cornucopia]

#1-If all else was equal, it would make sense to go to the HDV format because you'd always still have the included DV format to fall back on. But all things aren't equal. The XL1 & 2 have a whole range of add-ons and compatible 3rd party adapters and support and such. There isn't any yet for the HDV cams. Do you need interchangeable lenses? 3rd party adapters?

#2-You didn't finish the sentence at the beginning of the question. "and author..."--HOW? Are you talking about HD-DVD/BluRay? or Authoring SD DVD? We don't yet know what HD-DVD/BluRay players will have AFA outputs, although it shouldn't be monumental to have an onboard downconverter, so the likelyhood of it being able to work as you want is pretty good.

#3-How important is the 24p option. So far, NONE of the HDV's do it correctly, IMHO. The new JVC HDcam--the one that doesn't completely fit the HDV specs, probably does 24p ok, but you've got to decide how important that feature is vs. the slight loss of compatibility. Also, re: HDvsSD, don't forget the larger investment in editing required. Just about any 'ole PC can do DV these days, but you'd want a higher-end box to SMOOTHLY do HD. Even with HDV, which shouldn't have any different bitrate requirements for your pipeline, you will need some extra space, even if only for the TS->PS/tempCodec temporary conversion files. Plus it takes a little more horsepower to decode HD rez vs. SD rez. Also, when you do author, H.264 will require much more horsepower, or you'll really bog down on encoding times. Make sure you've got the whole workflow chain accounted for before plunking down you $$$. Otherwise, go for it!

Notice that the Sony HDV does 1080i vs. JVC's 720p (both of which are valid). Both should be playable on each others cam/vcr, but neither has been tested as such. Caveat Emptor. And decide which subformat is right for you (I like 720p better 'cuz I prefer the ultrasmooth motion).

HTH,
Scott

[Sillyname]

1. If you're in the market, wouldn't you want to just go ahead and get the HD? Even though you're target projects/audiences (mostly weddings) are not HD yet.

HDV uses long GOP. I believe 15 frames per GOP. If you get just the smallest glitch on the tape, you lose 1/2 second of video!

2. If you record in HD, then capture and post in HD, then author.... can you still watch that DVD on a standard TV?

Not unless you have a converter box.

If you convert the video from a HDR-FX1 to standard def for a DVD, you need to deinterlace it first using a GOOD deinterlacing program because the 1080i scanlines do not match up 1 for 1 to standard definition scan lines. Your video will look like garbage if you just scale it down without deinterlacing.

3. I've narrowed my choices down but am seriously considering going HD... just to keep up but my choices are: Sony HVR-Z1U, Sony HDR-FX1, JVC for HD and for standard the Panasonic DVX-100a or the XL-2.

Tape drop outs will break your heart on HDV.
Resolution will break your heart, if you get an SD camera.

Save some money and get a SONY PDX10. It's got good low light, is small and has 3 1MP CCDs that give the sharpest standard def you can get. Plus it records in DVCAM. You can get it for about $2,000.

[Cornucopia]

1. LongGOP problems are why companies like Sony have created new tape formulations that are more resistant to dropouts.

2. Sony's HDV will automatically downconvert straight out from the camera. It's part of their marketing. I would assume JVC's would too.

You could always rig a laptop to automatically receive the IEEE1394 MPEG2TS live feed from the camera as a backup (or maybe even as it's only recorded medium), if you're really worried about dropouts. You would also have much more available record time that way. Check it out 1st to make sure it's feasible, though. YMMV.

Scott

[RDM1138]

Yes... That did help. And yes 24p is important to me. I'm always one for "working out the bugs" and waiting for a decent product instead of buying the first breakthrough in technology. From what you're telling me the HDs may still need to "kick it up a notch" as far as being as versitile as our leaders... XL-1 and 2, DVX-100a, etc....

What camera would you suggest? As you already know I've been scoping the DVX-100a and XL-2 but would you have any suggestions? Interchanging lenses is not that important to me...... yet.

Brian

[Sillyname]

The DVX100. Unless you want a shoulder mount camera.

[Cornucopia]

My co-worker owns a DVX-100. Great SD cam! Go for it (but get the 100a)!

Scott

[RDM1138]

I do a lot of shooting here at work of LED lighting at night. I'm trying to get the company to cave and just get a better camera. Before I took over this position they had the Canon Optura. Lately we have been pushing these LED lights a lot so I'm videoing a lot at night trying to impress potential customers with nice, as true to real life footage as we can.... The Optura just can't perfom. We had a huge project with a lot of potential money for us so I suggested the XL-2 and they "rented" one. "Dangint" Anyway, that shoot went great and we got some really nice footage. I haven't learned as much about lux as I would like but in comparison, from what I've researched the XL-2 can operate at a very low light level.... what other cameras get close to that?

I know my skill level is showing but gatta start somewhere.

Brian

[takeshi]

The PD170 (and the PD150, VX2100 and VX2000) is well known for its low light performance. I'd definitely recommend it if you're going to be working in such conditions. Lux ratings are a starting point but they don't always accurately reflect real world performance in my experience.

[Edmund Blackadder]

What tipped the scale for me when I bought HVR-Z1U is the ability to shoot and playback in both PAL and NTSC, as well as 1080 50i and 60i. That ability alone is worth the price. It's like having two cameras in one.

Also, I absolutely don't understand the 24p hype! I mean if it's not going to the film output projected in the cinema, why on earth do people want so much to see these awful 3-2-2-3 pulldown motion artifacts? That is absolutely beyond me. If you want to see something that has the motion qualities or the real film for TV viewing, then the only options are 25p for PAL and 30p for NTSC. The pulldown was a compromise and looks nothing like the film projected in movie theatres.

I was watching a tape with some Japanese national commercials not long ago, and guess what? None of them had 3-2-2-3 pulldown. When they wanted a film-motion type look they shot in 30p instead of 60i or 24p. And it looked much better then 24p with pulldown that the North America is so obsessed with. The only pulldown material I saw in those Japanese commercials was the ad for one of the local movies, that's all. So the producers in North America take the compromised solution and turn it into a stylistic preference. And unless your product goes to film that will actually be shown in theatres, it's a very, very stupid trend that only makes the material look worse. If you want the progressive scan smoothness of 24p with the motion style qualities of film in NTSC TV land, then the only solution that looks remotely like the desired result is 30p. Both Cineframe 25 (for PAL) and Cineframe 30 (for NTSC) are perfect for downconvertion to 576/25p or 480/30p. I've tried it and it looks terrific. Just take the 1080i M2T file, drop it to Sony Vegas timeline, Render As to lossless 25p or 30p (well, 29.97p to be exact) and you'll see amazing results. But if you still want the dreaded 24p from HVR-Z1U you can still do it very well also in Vegas through Render As. You simply choose the preset with DV Widescreen 24p and for the best result change the codec to lossless instead of DV.

HVR-Z1U is probably the best camera I've ever used (among other Sonys, Panasonics, Canons XL1 and XL2 and shoulder mount JVC's). It's got tonns of tweaks and options. And on top of that, with the right settings and exposure, the picture quality is jaw-dropping.

So, my advice is to go for HVR-Z1U, even if you want 24p (simply add Vegas 6 to your workflow). Also, MainConcept MPEG Pro is perfect for Premiere Pro 1.5.1 if you want to do cut editing of M2T (HDV) material. It does not recompress the MPEG2, but even if you add some titles or effects, I've yet to see any worsening of the picture quality with MainConcept. Many people recommend Cineform, but it's still too buggy, especially with capture, and also it's still slightly changing the colorspace during the conversion, which is a big problem for me. So, either stay with M2T, or if you need further complex layering (let's say in After Effects), simply export to some lossless codec (Lagarith free codec is really good and compresses better than Huffyuv) and then later re-encode back to M2T with MainConcept if you want it to go back to the camera. Also for the M2T capture the only method I can recommend right now is CapDVHS (free program).

To avoid dropouts, either stick with one type of tape (Sony Premium for example), or if you change the brands, clean the heads each time you're going to shoot on a different brand of tape. I would not recommend Panasonic tapes for Z1. But Sony (after cleaning heads, otherwise there were dropouts), Fujifilm and Maxell behaved really well in Z1.

In conclusion, I think HVR-Z1U is absolutely the best camera you will find under $5k. But whichever camera you will finally decide to purchase, go for HDV model. I also like 1080i better than 720p. It's sharper in 1080i form, while still downconverts really well to 720p if needed.

[edDV]

What is missing here is a business plan.

You start by talking about shooting weddings. That is a competitive location shoot business and requires lots of equipment investment in audio, lighting, camera support and multicameras if you want to compete at the top. At the botttom tier, you need to assess the value of High Def to either get you the contract or to add a new product (e.g. DVD release now, HD DVD premium edit later when the customer is ready). The latter will take extra investment now for possible future business.

Then you talk about business promo production. How will these be presented? Does your company need to project these at business conferences? Most businesses will be slower than the home market to invest in HDTV playback equipment.

I agree with Edmund Blackadder on 24p. You may imagine it looks cool to your eyes but it may well be rejected and payment withheld by wedding customers that don't share your sense of art. "Picture studders, I'm not paying"

Likewise 24p is likely to be rejected by the marketing guy for the business market and you might just get yourself fired. Interview your "customers" and figure out their needs. You need their support for the capital approval process.

Are you buying this equipment or is the business? You need to have strong arguements for the added cost of HDTV. Conference projection is one arguement that may work.

Safest bet is DV or HDV if you can justify it. DVCPro-HD equipment will add way too much cost when you add up all costs for needed extras.

PS: The first question to expect from the finance guy is how can you cost justify leasing or buying this equipment vs. renting when needed. Remember to include the cost of a needed transcoder (e.g. Canopus ADVC-110 or 300) for edit monitoring display as an added cost for the rent option.

[Sillyname]

You need their support for the capital approval process.

You talk funny. :P