difference between ati aiw cards - also hauppauge question

[morr1s]

I am having crackling sound issues using dv-cam to convert VHS tapes. I am thinking I might go the ATI aiw card route. I want to spend the least money possible. I like to edit my captures so first I am thinking that mpeg only capture cards might not be the way to go. I have an old Hauppauge Wintv TO Go tv card that does capture 720 by 480, but I don't like the results. The Hauppauge 250 is a great price, but it looks like it does mpeg only captures and would there be a noticeable quality difference between my old Hauppauge card or just added features? There are so many ati cards it's hard to make sense of them all. I am not interested in gaming so I don't care about gaming aspects of the card - what would be the cheapest ati card that would support avi captures, mpeg captures?
Thanks

[lordsmurf]

ATI AIW can do both MPEG and AVI.
Oldest one to safely buy would be the 7200 card.
All the way to now's 9800.
Find on eBay, $50 or less.
I have the 7200, first Radeon AIW, works great.

[morr1s]

Thanks for your help,

Now I know which cards to research prices on.

[BrainStorm69]

Now I know which cards to research prices on.

I have an older AIW Wonder 7500 AGP that works well, and as LS suggests, you can sometimes catch one on ebay for about $50.

[morr1s]

would I gain anything over my Wintv model 401 card.

[morr1s]

I am looking at a 7500 on ebay. Is there a capture quality advantage with higher models or just added features?

[SatStorm]

Regarding your old good Hauppauge:
For your win tv card, you can use the btwincap drivers, so to capture up to 768 x 576/480, at any system (including pal60 / NTSC50). Also, you don't have macrovision problems of any kind.
Combine your wintv with mainconcept 1.4.2 and you have an excellent solution for realtime mpeg 2 captures, if your PC is ~2000Ghz and you learn how to set it up.
On the other hand, you have aspect ratio problems.

ATI cards are far more advance cards, that shines when your source is more than VHS/SVHS, you don't have to deal with macrovision and you don't have to use "exotic" systems.

In short terms: In case you only wish to convert VHS to DVD, the old bt8xx cards are more than enough to do your job! If you wish to capture other things (LD for example), ATI is a better choice

[Wilbert]

In short terms: In case you only wish to convert VHS to DVD, the old bt8xx cards are more than enough to do your job! If you wish to capture other things (LD for example), ATI is a better choice

Can you back this up with evidence, because I don't believe it (provided you cap at 368x480 / 384x576 or higher sizes)?

[SatStorm]

Wilbert, nice to meet you....

[Wilbert]

Nice to meet you too

So, no evidence?

[Sturge33]

I had purchased an ADS DVD Xpress unit and was using a Sapphire 9600 Pro video card. I was capturing some home movies on vhs, some on vhs-c, and some on hi-8. The quality was OK but not spectacular. I was having problems with the PC locking up, which happened only after I installed the 9600 Pro.

I read lots of good reviews on the AIW cards, so I just went ahead and got one. I got the ATI 9600 XT AIW. After re-capturing the Hi-8 tapes with the AIW, I can say that the quality of the AIW over the ADS unit is unreal. Even if I set the AIW to capture to MPEG the quality blows the ADS unit away. The AIW has worked flawlessly, with no lockups, dropped frames, or anything of the sort. The only issue I had was trying to install the latest MMC which would not work for me. I am currently using MMC 9.0 which works great.

I have no experience with your Hauppage card but I can say that I am very happy with my All-In-Wonder.

[SatStorm]

@: I would say, no more wasting time.
BTW: What is "evidence"? A frame? Unfair. A clip? Who can insure that the materials we gonna present are the true ones and made the way we said. You gonna take my word about it? Then why you don't do it the first place...

So stop doing this, it is a waste of time (except if you wish to bug me)

I suggest you to do, what anyone do: Just post your opinion and add an IMO or a "for me" before it. That way the user get informed for all the alternatives.

There is a huge difference between posting your opinion and experiance about a subject than try to prove your opinion to others. Especially when is practise vs theory

The bottom line is, that IMO with a BT8xx card, you can succeed perfect VHS to DVD transfers. End.

You are free to post your opinion now.
And once again: Nice to meet you.

[Wilbert]

BTW: What is "evidence"? A frame? Unfair. A clip? Who can insure that the materials we gonna present are the true ones and made the way we said. You gonna take my word about it?

C'mon I'm not paranoid. A bunch of frames will do (unless you think that is not sufficient).

So stop doing this, it is a waste of time (except if you wish to bug me)

My intention is not to bug you (it's nothing personal). If people claim something they should provide evidence. But, I guess you don't agree with that.

Of course, pointing to a link where evidence is shown (by someone) is also sufficient.

Then why you don't do it the first place...

Because I don't have any ati capture device. Only on this board I know someone with an ati and a bt8x8 device (BrainStorm ???). (I also don't have a s-vhs/LD ...)

I suggest you to do, what anyone do: Just post your opinion and add an IMO or a "for me" before it. That way the user get informed for all the alternatives.

Just as you did here: "(...) If you wish to capture other things (LD for example), ATI is a better choice" ?

[lordsmurf]

I have both an ATI Theatre and a BT8x8.

I tried and tried and tried to get that BT8x8 to work and output quality at least half as good as the ATI. It never would. The chips are just plain bad. We can tweak all day long, but in the end, you'll just end up pissed off, and with funny-sized video that needs to still be resized and re-encoded to be proper to any kind of spec.

And while I'd love to do a comprehensive analysis, my time is just not available for it these days.

[Wilbert]

I tried and tried and tried to get that BT8x8 to work and output quality at least half as good as the ATI. It never would. The chips are just plain bad.

I guess something else must be wrong then. We have seen some comparison screenshots from ??? (you remember, screenshots of a dvd-menu in a thread where a bunch of posts were deleted due to forum problems). It certainly didn't look just 'half as good'.

and with funny-sized video that needs to still be resized and re-encoded to be proper to any kind of spec.

That depends on the drivers. If you use BTWincap you will get in spec sizes (active cap window of 52.03 µs for pal and 52.80 µs for ntsc, see chapter 5 of you know ...).

With the ATI it depends on the chip: Rage Theater chip '52.96 ntsc' and Theater 200 '52.15 ntsc' (spec is 52.6556).

Perhaps someone else will make a comparison

[lordsmurf]

I take away points for the fake sharpen filters and other issues we see (AR is a big one!). While the final capture can look good, it is only at goofball sizes that optimums are met. Satstorm himself mentioned that (max PAL res used for best quality). Even with BTwincap, the problems we see are not driver-related, they are chipset related. Nothing can fix that.

While there may be some slight spec differences in the ATI Theatre chipsets, their performance differences are quite negligible. More of that practice vs theory phenomena. Numbers and algebraic math become meaningless very quickly. Yet again, another thing satstorm mentioned, and yet again something we agree on.

Hopefully somebody competent can give you what you want. Or you can always go out and get both cards to do it yourself. ATI AIW sell on eBay for $50 all the time, and the BT cards are sold well under that, sometimes as low as $10. Research costs money, not just time.

[SatStorm]

BT8xx cards are old. Too old. That is good and bad at the same time. Good because you can do anything you wish with them (that doesn't mean in the best possible way). Bad, because they are not the best ones (that doesn't mean that they don't do their job well).

When you capture VHS/SVHS with a bt8xx card, you have excellent results. But not "as is": you have to filter, correct issues, resize, etc. Some people like that, some people no. For some people all this video thing is a hobby, for some others is bizness. For some people wasting time with a bt8xx for make it work is a challenge, for some others is simply a waste of time.
But this is not the point here: The point is what you can succeed with a bt8xxx card and VHS tapes.
Yes, IMO, you can succeed excellent transfers from VHS to DVD. Are those transfers the best possible ones? Hardly: For me, a PAL user, using a DV converter like canopus is a better solution. Slighty better pictures, but far - far easier.

The only reason you would buy a bt8xx card today, is when you wish to convert PAL60 / NTSC 50 or exotic stuff, rarelly you gonna have to deal with.

BUT if you already have a bt8xxx card and what you wish to do is to convert your VHS tapes, then you don't need something more! That's my point: Just learn the bt8xxx bible, and do your stuff. When you have it, why not use it?

When you are more advance, more proffecional, or you have MORE needs than simply capture some VHS tapes, then you might try to find something more. Is this gonna be an ATI card? Is this gonna be an Conexant based one? Is it gonna be a DV converter? It is your choice.
But this is a next step. NOT the first one.

The latest cards, are far better the more than 5 years now bt8xx ones.
ATI, latest conexant, even 9bit Philips ones, what is "mainstream" today is better.

I don't know why LS you can't succeed "perfect" VHS to DVD transfers with a BT8xxx card. On the other hand, there are users never succeed set up an ATI Card. What I mean, is that is all about how you are and what you wish to do. After all, bt8xxx cards are NOT for your case. They need time you don't have!

You might say now, that "if it is so, then why you don't learn the ATI installation bible, buy an ATI card and do your job with it.

There is a difference: BT8xxx cards do install easy. Then , they need "tweeking", something people love to do. On the other hand, older ATI cards do not install easy. And that is what most people hate!

Those with bt8xxx cards (and older technology solutions overall) are like those overclockers in a way: They love to do some things, in the really hard way, just for the fun of it. Those people have that as a hobby. Let seperate them with the others.
And in this hobby, the video related one, let's seperate the profs, the semi-profs, the enthusiasts and the simply users. They are not the one and the same! Never forget that!

@Wilbert: Sometimes, you can't deal with someone just because. You can't stand him, you can't talk him, you can't even look at him without getting nervous. Why that happens, is unknown. But is all about the human nature.
What I mean is that some people, for no obvious reasons, piss me off. The vocabulary they are using, the way they express themselfs, the way they ask or answer things. So, I don't waste my and their time to reply to them.
So, once again, nice to meet you. Have a nice life. Be swell! Whatever!

[lordsmurf]

I think the same people that like to fiddle with BTxxx cards are probably the same group that play with emulators, hack firmware and write avisynth scripts. Your doom9 group, to some degree. The fiddlers, the tinkerers.

It also attracts a lot of penny-pinchers. They're dirt cheap.

I don't think installing anything on a PC is easy. Some system somewhere always has to have a fit. ATI install is only tough because it has very rigid rules, and you cannot do things out of order. The BTxxx is mostly harmless in this area, I agree.

[Wilbert]

When you capture VHS/SVHS with a bt8xx card, you have excellent results. But not "as is": you have to filter, correct issues, resize, etc.

Like I said above, using the BTWincap drivers you will get in spec sizes (about the same as with Rage Theater chip). So, I don't know why you and lordsmurf keep repeating this. I have no idea what other issues you are talking about.

The latest cards, are far better the more than 5 years now bt8xx ones. ATI, latest conexant, even 9bit Philips ones, what is "mainstream" today is better.

You keep repeating this, but that doesn't make it more true without providing evidence.

Those with bt8xxx cards (and older technology solutions overall) are like those overclockers in a way: They love to do some things, in the really hard way, just for the fun of it. Those people have that as a hobby. Let seperate them with the others.

Installing BTWincap drivers is hard?

@Wilbert: Sometimes, you can't deal with someone just because. You can't stand him, you can't talk him, you can't even look at him without getting nervous. Why that happens, is unknown. But is all about the human nature.
What I mean is that some people, for no obvious reasons, piss me off. The vocabulary they are using, the way they express themselfs, the way they ask or answer things. So, I don't waste my and their time to reply to them.

Only because I keep insisting that you provide evidence for claims you make? Why do you think I do this? Because I think some of your statements are false, while telling people otherwise (when advicing them what they should buy). That's not my problem if that pisses you off.

[racerxnet]

Hey Kevin, Smurf,

Without the math the cards could not be made. Math is part and parcel to the engineering and manufacturing of said product(s), otherwise we would not have the cards to play with.



8)

[FulciLives]

Here are some screen caps made with an AverTV Stereo PCI capture card. This is a BT based card.

Screen caps done from a USA NTSC LaserDisc using the PICVideo MJPEG codec on the 19 quality setting (20 being highest).

Capture done at 688x480 for proper A/R for DVD.

You would pad from 688 to 720 by adding 16 black on either side.

This is one of the "oddities" of the BT based capture cards.

Quality, though a somewhat subjective taste, is rather good in my eyes.

What do YOU think?









Again the caps above are the from the original capture and are unprocessed otherthan saving in Photoshop (imported through VirtualDubMod) as JPG files.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

P.S.
Here is another screen cap same process as above but this from an ad on TV. I picked this for the small text.