"The Myth" That Just Won't Die

[hech54]

What myth?
The one where bigger cars are safer than smaller cars. This and the fact the one of the WORST vehicles ever tested in a similar crash years ago was a full size Ford Van....the big V8 ones they use for conversion vans.
I hope this attached article will forever change people's minds but I'm positive it won't. I'm sure we'll hear from at least a few "Buy American" people.



http://www.bridger.us/2002/12/16/CrashTestingMINICooperVsFordF150

[Cobra]

It stands to reason, doesn't it? A bigger car = a bigger weight = greater energy on impact.

Structurally, I'm sure they are built much the same as small cars so again, it stands to reason that they'd give in more.

I'm no expert, though.

Cobra

[DVD_Ripper]

Would love to see the Cooper with a 500 lbs dummy in there and compare photos... more weight... stronger impact... more damage..

[vitualis]

It depends on the TYPE of car.

In general, as long as a car is well designed, larger SEDANS are safer than smaller ones.

Vans are generally worse than sedans in a front collision. Similarly so with SUVs.

Regards.

[tweedledee]

What it means is that when TWO cars collide, the occupants of the larger car come out best

[pacmania_2001]

A 4WD drive may be safe when it runs into a hatch but not when it runs into a bus like what I saw coming home yesterday. Literally flipped the 4WD, crushing the roof and killing the occupant.

If you are after a safe car, buy a Mercedes or BMW.

[Cobra]

...or if you aren't minted, wear a helmet!

[Faustus]

I'd Murder everyone on this forum for a Mini.... uhm I mean those are very nice cars.

Personally I like small cars, and if they would ever actually release the SmartCar in the US I'd be all over one.

[northcat_8]

What it means is that when TWO cars collide, the occupants of the larger car come out best

What tweedledee said. If you wreck your car into a tree then it doesn't really matter...keep your car on the road and you won't have that problem.

The comparison is when 2 cars collide with eachother...when to cars collide the smaller car will sustain the majority of the impact...thats basic physics...just ask any bug smeared on your windshield.

[Capmaster]

The lighter vehicle has less kinetic energy and will be deflected more easily. That means it stops and reverses quicker on impact. That translates to more damage to the occupants, regardless of its crush-up virtues. It's an inescapable law of physics - more mass means it's harder to change its speed or direction.

[vitualis]

The lighter vehicle has less kinetic energy and will be deflected more easily. That means it stops and reverses quicker on impact. That translates to more damage to the occupants, regardless of its crush-up virtues. It's an inescapable law of physics - more mass means it's harder to change its speed or direction.

It isn't as simple as that.

In a front on collision between a van and and even a small sedan, the occupants of the sedan will more than likely come out of it better.

Sedans have better crumple zones and the engine block is generally designed to go underneath the passenger cabin. Vans have less of this protection as per the above picture and the occupants are more likely to be crushed. The same for SUVs.

Regards.

[Capmaster]

The lighter vehicle has less kinetic energy and will be deflected more easily. That means it stops and reverses quicker on impact. That translates to more damage to the occupants, regardless of its crush-up virtues. It's an inescapable law of physics - more mass means it's harder to change its speed or direction.

It isn't as simple as that.

In a front on collision between a van and and even a small sedan, the occupants of the sedan will more than likely come out of it better.

Sedans have better crumple zones and the engine block is generally designed to go underneath the passenger cabin. Vans have less of this protection as per the above picture and the occupants are more likely to be crushed. The same for SUVs.

Regards.

Agreed that it isn't as simple as that. I was saying that assuming all other things are equal, the lighter vehicle's passengers will come out of it worse than the heavier vehicle's passengers. They will get jerked around the passenger compartment more because their car will change speed and direction easier upon impact. There's no way around that fact. Put two eggs touching each other in a cardboard box with styrofoam and bricks in it, and put two eggs touching each other in a cardboard box of the same size and styrofoam but without the bricks. Slam them together at progressively higher velocities and tell me which eggs break first

[Will Hay]

It depends on the TYPE of car.

In general, as long as a car is well designed, larger SEDANS are safer than smaller ones.

Vans are generally worse than sedans in a front collision. Similarly so with SUVs.

Regards.

Exactly, and age is a major factor too.
I saw a test of two cars, one a ten years older model than the other but same car, in which they drove them head on at 40mph.
The difference in damage was amazing, and as for the cash test dummy in the older model....
....oh dear!
Will

[rallynavvie]

Weld a good cage in your car and you'll worry less. Then you only need to worry about the abrupt stops (that's what HANS devices are for) and things coming through the cage to spear you. Unibodies also help, but a tube frame/cage supporting your car goes a long way toward keeping the cabin safe.

[northcat_8]

When I was a kid I drove a 1962 Chevy Pickup truck. A guy ran a stop sign or just pulled out in front of me driving a 87 mustang. I was traveling at 35 mph (in town) I hit him on the driver's side front tire and virtually removed the front end off the car. I slammed on the breaks when I saw him but it was too late.

Oh and the damage to my truck...the bumper was bend back about 4 inches. I took it home, hooked a come-along to it and pulled it back and you couldn't see the difference. But you are talking 2 different kinds of vehicles here. In 62' cars were made of real metal and were much heavier.

Case in point, last year a kid from our HS got killed in a car wreck, he ran a stop sign, didn't see the Ford Explorer coming, the explorer going around 50 mph hit him broadside, the honda accord was shot like a pool ball into an electric pole, split the car and the kid in half.

There are so many variables that go into a collision, this topic is moot. When push comes to shove if a mini and a suburban are going to be in a collision...I want to be in the suburban and I don't care what year of a suburban it is.

[hech54]

Also from the article:

"Are the best performers the biggest and heaviest vehicles on the road? Not at all. Among the safest cars are the midsize imports, like the Toyota Camry and the Honda Accord. Or consider the extraordinary performance of some subcompacts, like the Volkswagen Jetta. Drivers of the tiny Jetta die at a rate of just forty-seven per million, which is in the same range as drivers of the five-thousand-pound Chevrolet Suburban and almost half that of popular S.U.V. models like the Ford Explorer or the GMC Jimmy. In a head-on crash, an Explorer or a Suburban would crush a Jetta or a Camry. But, clearly, the drivers of Camrys and Jettas are finding a way to avoid head-on crashes with Explorers and Suburbans. The benefits of being nimble--of being in an automobile that's capable of staying out of trouble--are in many cases greater than the benefits of being big."
Plus....how many accidents have you ever seen are "head on" collisions? I personally only recall one but it was more like the pictures above. Not exactly head on but more like "driver's side to driver's side" accident. It was my grandfather in his late 70's Plymouth Volare 2 door and a drunken a§§hole in a mid 70's Chevy Nova. Both cars MUCH heavier than cars built today. Both cars destroyed and one driver almost destroyed....my grandfather. Of course the drunken a§§hole almost walked away.
It's true that every accident scenario is different...throwing off every effort by car companies to build a car that you can walk away from in every situation but...the old myths are just NOT true....especially now.

[gastorgrab]

http://www.bridger.us/2002/12/16/CrashTestingMINICooperVsFordF150

We're 10 times more likely to hit another car than we are a stationary object.

When a vehicle hits an obsticle that doesn't move (and doesn't absorb any energy), the vehicle of greater mass will always have to absorb more energy.

Force = Mass x Acceleration

Let's see what happens if we crash those vehicles into each other!

-----------edit-----------

How many reports in this topic involve a single car?

[gastorgrab]

How exactly do things like this get started anyway?

If someone drives their vehicle off the roadway and hits a tree, we place blame on the manufacturer of the vehicle he was driving.

I'm surprised that none of the blame is placed on the tree!

[hech54]

We're 10 times more likely to hit another car than we are a stationary object.

That's wrong:
Majority of accidents involve only a single car.

Let's see what happens if we crash those vehicles into each other!

Nobody is disputing what would happen in that scenario...because of the fact stated above that the majority of accidents involve only a single car.
Put simply...a "head-on collision" rarely happens.

[gastorgrab]

That's wrong:
Majority of accidents involve only a single car.

I'm not calling you a liar, i simply don't believe it.

the fact stated above that the majority of accidents involve only a single car.

Just because you see it in print it doesn't mean its true.

Accidents include many angles, by objects that are never in the same place from one moment to the next.

The position of stationary objects shouldn't surprise anyone.........They Don't Move!

The figures for fatalities have alot to do with the personality-types of the people who buy those vehicles, you will have to admit.

Agressive types like agressive looking vehicles.

I personally think that Anti-lock brakes made the streets even more dangerous because people are now more comfortable driving their vehicles even faster. They assume that their fate is someone elses responsibility.

Put simply...a "head-on collision" rarely happens

The front end of a car is only 1 place to crash into it. Don't forget about the other 360 degrees.

[flaninacupboard]

I'd Murder everyone on this forum for a Mini.... uhm I mean those are very nice cars.

Personally I like small cars, and if they would ever actually release the SmartCar in the US I'd be all over one.

You don't have them over there? a friend of mine just bought a convertible and she's loving it, does 55 to the gallon and looks very swish crusing with the top down. they've been available for a few years now, why the delay in entering the US market i wonder?

[vitualis]

Single vehicle accidents are very common, but I don't believe that they are the most common in the urban setting.

Head on collisions are quite rare though. Being hit from the side or from behind is much more common.

In rural areas, single vehicle accidents are definitely the most common type of accident (result of speeding, long trips/fatigue, etc). A single vehicle accident doesn't necessarily mean you have to hit a tree or a boulder. Swerving off the road and rolling your vehicle counts as a "single vehicle accident" as well, and I definitely wouldn't want to be in a SUV when that happens.

Regards.

[vitualis]

I personally think that Anti-lock brakes made the streets even more dangerous because people are now more comfortable driving their vehicles even faster. They assume that their fate is someone elses responsibility.

That is called "risk compensation".

I don't believe that ABS has made any significant change in road fatalities (for good or bad).

Regards.

[flaninacupboard]

I dislike ABS, it encourages drivers to be lazy and not know their vehicles or the roads' limitation. if they don't need to brake differently on a loose surface why drive or steer differently?

[rallynavvie]

I disabled the ABS on mine. I don't know about the rest of the world but the ABS on USDM Subarus is awful. If I try to stop quick on washboard roads the pedal just goes to the floor. Works OK on dry or wet pavement but forget snow, ice, dirt, rough roads, etc. ABS isn't always as safe as people make it out to be.

[gastorgrab]

Rough road surfaces have been known to confuse Anti-Lock braking systems.

There are wheel speed sensors on every wheel, and if any wheel leaves the ground for a moment, and doesn't register a change in speed (when it happens), the sensor provides "Bad Data" to the ABS controller.

[flaninacupboard]

i say they belong squarely in the bin. if the powers that be think drivers can't use their car correctly, make the test harder! test them in different conditions, or make them prove they've done x thousand miles before they have a full licence. you -can't- correct bad driving awarness or reactions through mechanical interference. even a fully coputerised system will perform worse in some situations than a skilled driver.

[Doramius]

I'd Murder everyone on this forum for a Mini.... uhm I mean those are very nice cars.

Personally I like small cars, and if they would ever actually release the SmartCar in the US I'd be all over one.

You don't have them over there? a friend of mine just bought a convertible and she's loving it, does 55 to the gallon and looks very swish crusing with the top down. they've been available for a few years now, why the delay in entering the US market i wonder?

I'm sure the "Big Three" have a special block that doesn't permit certain vehicles in the US for a certain amount of time until after it's prototype phase, and it also seems that there is some special connection with that and the oil companies, too. The US has to wait about 2 years before the new lightweight hydraulic transmission is released. It's both fuel efficient and 200 times more durable and reliable than the standard manual or automatic transmission. It's also supposed to be cheaper to make. You'd think something like that would be thrown on the market in a moment's notice. But the 'American company's' design is being held down due to regulations implemented by Car manufacturers and oil companies. They currently have to wait about 2 years and maybe sooner after the EPA's review.

[rallynavvie]

Minis have been available here for at least a year

[fmctm1sw]

I will say they've made big safety improvements over the last decade or so. Given a choice though, you'll still see me in a 4500lb station wagon....